The Meaning of "FOREKNEW" in Romans 8:29

[Allinall]

Not to argue with you Brother Dave, but the links you've provided aren't necessary.  I've already studied this out for the past 10 years of my walk with Christ.  Not saying that I've arrived, mind you, just that I've spent 10 years reading these doctrines.  My mind isn't made up of Armenian, Calvinistic, or other forms of theology.  My mind is made up because the scriptures say these things.  I am, have been, and always will be a biblicist.  If you read my posts, you'll find that this is my endeavor - to be true to scripture, even when it may disagree with the philosophies we've adopted.

I do not begrudge your viewpoint Brother.  I simply disagree with it.     As for God's sovereignty...you're preaching to the choir!     Understand brother, NO MAN gets saved apart from God's sovereign plan and working.  Part of that working is God's sovereign choice to give each man the opportunity to obey His calling.  I have a 5 pointer Calvinist friend in my church who always teases me saying, "That's okay Kev!  If your God's not big enough to control your life..."  I'll ask you the same question I've asked him: Does God sovereignly chosing to give man the opportunity to accept His calling make God any smaller?   

As far as free will goes...don't get me started!     I personally don't see this concept anywhere in scripture.  I see God sovereignly controlling many choices men have made in scripture, and I've seen Him sovereignly choose to allow man to make his own choices and suffer the consequences, both good and bad.

It can get quite confusing.  But in the end, Brother, I'm a biblicist.  God said these things and that's good enough for me.  Maybe we'll make each other a deal?  If you're right when we get to Heaven, I owe you dinner sometime.  If I'm right, I'll still have you for dinner.   

His,

Kevin

[Dave...]

Thanks for the reply Keven. Being a Biblicist, you can't go wrong with that. Sometimes the terms Calvinism/Arminianism just get in the way, but they are helpful in giving a basic understanding of where one is coming from theologically.

Does God sovereignly chosing to give man the opportunity to accept His calling make God any smaller?

No, not at all. But I probably would think of the word "opportunity" differently than you do. Everyone has the opportunity, it's just that no one is capable of making the right choice without God making the first move. When Christ died on the cross, I don't believe that He simply made salvation a possibility, I believe that there was actual sin nailed to the cross. And we know that election is "unto salvation", with much emphasis put on the word "unto". All that the Father Gives to Him...

If you take a look at the thread called (going by memory) "God's sovereignty and mans will" you can see that some of these thing are being discussed. For me, it is confusing at times and many times I often set studies aside until I regain my strength and determination. I've found over time that confronting these tough questions can be also be very rewarding. There is a place for knowing that we must accept God at His Word even when we cannot rationalize some of these things in our minds, but should this stop our search for the answer? Maybe it's arrogant of me to think this way, but I always approach scripture knowing that God can reveal something to me that He has never revealed to any man at any time. There's nothing special about me and I don't deserve to know more than others, but He can and will use me in this way. Then I can share it with everyone. So even if it's the "ultimate question" that has been debated for centuries, I still have no problem seeking the answer.

God Bless you Keven

In Christ Jesus

Dave

[Shammu]

But in the end, Brother, I'm a biblicist.  God said these things and that's good enough for me.  Maybe we'll make each other a deal?  If you're right when we get to Heaven, I owe you dinner sometime.  If I'm right, I'll still have you for dinner.   

His,

Kevin

AMEN brother, God said it, I believe it.

[Allinall]

AMEN brother, God said it, I believe it.

I knew I liked you for some reason!      Can't go wrong believing God Bro.   

[Shammu]

I knew I liked you for some reason!      Can't go wrong believing God Bro.   

One of the reasons you and I, do see eye to eye is because, I also am a Biblicist. Thats one of the reasons, I can talk to you easier, then some of the others can. But if you remember back, I told y'all that before.

[ollie]

"Foreknow" as used in Romans 8:29
 
NT:4267
proginosko (prog-in-oce'-ko); from NT:4253 and NT:1097; to know beforehand, i.e. foresee:

KJV - foreknow (ordain), know (before).

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Romans 8:29:

 -- King James
Romans 8:29  For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

-- American Standard
Romans 8:29  For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:

-- Living Bible
Romans 8:29  For from the very beginning God decided that those who came to him--and all along he knew who would--should become like his Son, so that his Son would be the First, with many brothers.

-- Revised Standard
Romans 8:29  For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. 

-- Simple English
Romans 8:29  The people whom God knew about long ago were made a part of God's plan long ago. God wanted them to become just like His Son. This is the way Christ would be the firstborn among many brothers.

-- Transliterated, Pronounceable
Romans 8:29  Ho'ti hou's proe'gnoo, kai' prooo'risen summo'rfous tee'seiko'nos tou' Huiou' autou', eis to' ei'nai auto'n prooto'tokonen polloi's adelfoi's,

-- Transliterated, Unaccented
Romans 8:29  Hoti hous proegno, kai proorisen summorfous teseikonos tou Huiou autou, eis to einai auton prototokonen pollois adelfois,

-- New Jerusalem with Apocrypha
Romans 8:29  He decided beforehand who were the ones destined to be moulded to the pattern of his Son, so that he should be the eldest of many brothers;

-- Young's Bible
Romans 8:29  because whom He did foreknow, He also did fore-appoint, conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be first-born among many brethren;

-- Darby's Bible
Romans 8:29  Because whom he has foreknown, he has also predestinated to be conformed to the image of his Son, so that he should be the firstborn among many brethren.

-- Weymouth's New Testament
Romans 8:29  For those whom He has known beforehand He has also pre-destined to bear the likeness of His Son, that He might be the Eldest in a vast family of brothers;

-- Webster's Bible
Romans 8:29  For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the first-born among many brethren.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon:


NT:4267
proginooskoo;
to have knowledge of beforehand; to foreknow: namely, tauta, 2 Peter 3:17

(from Thayer's Greek Lexicon, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 2000 by Biblesoft)



Easton's Bible Dictionary:

Topics: Foreknowl'edge of God

Text:  Acts 2:23; Rom. 8:29; 11:2; 1 Pet. 1:2), one of those high attributes essentially appertaining to him the full import of which we cannot comprehend. In the most absolute sense his knowledge is infinite (1 Sam. 23: 9-13; Jer. 38:17-23; 42:9-22, Matt. 11: 21, 23; Acts 15:18).


ollie

[Allinall]

One of the reasons you and I, do see eye to eye is because, I also am a Biblicist. Thats one of the reasons, I can talk to you easier, then some of the others can. But if you remember back, I told y'all that before.

There ya go.  Makin' me remember again...   Amen Brother!

[alwpray]

Allinall, you've given one of the best explanations and there's only a partial sentence that I'm not exactly sure on it but I will keep it in mind until the time when its needed for me to meditate on which I don't think is now.

I too have studied, pondered, prayed, reasoned on Calvinist theory, Calvinist Christians, famous Calvinist preachers and do not agree with Calvinism. I'm so glad that this board does not go crazy like other boards where Calvinists try to force their theories (which they insist is biblical ie Calvinist=Biblical) down people's throats and those that do not agree with them are falsely accused to have misunderstood Calvinism or refused to 'bow down' to God. Please keep the board this way. There are better things that should be done with one's time ie saving souls and disciplining oneself to cultivate the fruits of the spirit. Discussions can be good but when it gets  non-stop and other more important areas are overlooked, then its wrong. A board need not be the most active to be the most fruitful. This board is far from being the most active Christian board, but is certainly one of the Christian board that has the least fights and wasting of time coupled with good biblical teachings.


Guess, the main reason why I have decided to write is so that I am able to search for this thread easily now by just searching for my username. Also, I hope that any Calvinists that see it would really stop, think for a while how they come across to others and PRAY A LOT before they keep posting on this topic (Calvinism) and instead choose to cultivate the fruits of the spirit instead. I do agree with Allinall that Calvinists have some deep understanding of scriptures but not all their understanding is correct and the way that is being done to spread Calvinism is incorrect. Spend more time instead on the board's bible study section. Its not the most 'interesting' but it can be one of the most 'fruitful'.

[alwpray]

Something has just come to my mind. And now, I can agree with what Allinall says on that partial sentence that I wasn't sure of earlier on.

In Acts 16:14 One of those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message

The above has been one of the stronger points used by Calvinists to say that God choses whom He allows to believe. But if you meditate on this verse  and other verses where the people believed, I noticed this. I'm far from the best at remembering the bible verses but as far as I know I can't recall a verse that  says God makes/caused/forced them to believe in Him (rather, the verses have been : And they/men/women believed.)

I do believe that God needs to open up our hearts to believe and be willing to believe/respond first (just like in Lydia's case) but then we need to then make a choice whether to follow God or not.

Does the above then rule out God's sovereign choice and election or does that mean God is frustrated in His plans--not at all. How all this seemingly conflicting meanings fit in--God has chosen not to reveal fully to us. After all in Isaiah 55:8   "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the Lord. Let's not try to force an understanding that God has chosen not to give us. Just like the Trinity, we have not tried to force an understanding but accept it because the scriptures say that.  So is it with this election, God's sovereignty and the many verses that seemed to conflict with God's sovereign choice and election.


With this I can now reconcile and accept Allinall's partial sentence of 'somewhere along the line, I made a decision that He gave me to make that had eternal consequence' (I've already agreed with the 1st half of his earlier sentence but was a bit unsure about the later half.

Allinall's sentence
My personal viewpoint?  I'm saved because God chose for me to be saved before the foundations of the world, and somewhere along the line, I made a decision that He gave me to make that had eternal consequence

With regards to 'free will', election and God's sovereign choice, I believe in all three, with God's sovereign choice taking 1st place and the 'free will' definition maybe not as wide a meaning as some people would define it. As I do not have a better word for this 'free will definition' of mine, I have continued and most likely will continue to use 'free will' for usage simplicity and understanding.


I believe when we are really willing to let God lead us to the truth and not hold on dogmatically to manmade doctrines or try to satisfy our own 'carnal desire' to understand it the way we want it to be (one of the reason for some Calvinists could be to make them feel more secure--after all they are part of the elect), then God will lead us. This has to be done with lots of prayers, meditation on the verses and the willingness to be wrong and  to be hurt before the truth can be revealed.

I realize that I'm not very clear in my post above, but its difficult to write down everything in my thoughts as that would make for very long posts which is not my desire. So I've chosen to say just a small portion of my thoughts above and omit mentioning the many verses to substantiate my reasoning. One day I may need to recall this thought and I guess that's one of the reason why I write so that I can refer to it back in later years.

[Soldier4Christ]

I think that both of your post were plenty clear enough to understand and that you have hit on a very important part of this subject. It is quite clear that God has given us all a choice to make, that of believing in Him and accepting Him or that of rejecting Him. It is God that has put this within us. Yes, there are many scriptures that support this.