hard rock/metal church?

[Tibby]

Oh, good song, but it proves my point. This song is singing ABOUT God, not to him. “Bring me to Life” By Evanescence or “Can you talk me higher” by Creed. These song SOUND Christian, but they are not. Hey, Korn talks about Jesus a lot, are they a Christian Band? Is it enough to simple talk about God? The Church doesn’t “conform” to my ways, the church follows the Word and Oral traditions of the Church Fathers inspired by God. I’m sure you know it is that overplayed song,

You say “Traditional values are not always going to support us in these new times.” WHAT? What ever happened to “Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.” in Matthew 24:35, Mark 13:31, and Luke 21:33? Yeah, lets drop the Biblical Values so we can reach some Metalheads who aren’t willing to give a little for Jesus. If you are not willing to change for God, then are you Truly saved? Lets make some Christian porn so we can save even more people while we are at it! What is the point? Listen to it on your own time, that kind of music has no place in a church! Show some reverence and respect!

And Bach and Beethoven, first off, I don’t even know why everyone likes them, both of there are WAY overrated! Give me Thomas Tallis any day! And secondly, Bach  wrote church music. Haven’t you ever heard of “the St Matthew Passion”? And Beethoven composed some of the most profound Christian masterpieces! They were never persecuted! People loved them! They were famous! You want Persecution, go read about those Christians who die for their Christianity! They made a lifestyle change that costs them there lives, and you can’t even change your style! I’d like to meet these Christian Metalheads you talk about, because all the ones I know are weak Christians who compromise so they don’t have to give up there lifestyle!

[TaylorC]

Good lord are you an idiot, Tibby. Beethoven and Bach are overrated?!? The song is ABOUT God, not to Him?!? What difference is that going to make? If you know so much, you should know that song is a direct quote from Ecclesiastes 12 - so dont tell me its not God honoring. People dont want to hear "praise God" if they don't know who or what God is ABOUT! Don't be ridiculous, you're only proving why so many people don't like stereotypical Christians. "Christian porn"? You're carrying it a bit far now, aren't you? The fact is, I have changed for God, and if He sent an angel or messenger to tell me Christian metal is not pleasing to Him, I would not listen to it. You are so judgmental and you don't even realize it.

Who are you to tell people what's right to have in the house of God? I'm sure you be the kind of fool who'd turn away prostitutes and such because of your extreme judgment. God can use ANYONE AND ANYTHING. He created it, so don't tell me a musical style is displeasing to Him. The Bible and Scripture is not a toy for you to abuse and misuse to see whatever view you accept. Here's another song for you:

Liberal Mediocrity
Taking from The Word is a disgrace.
Politically Correct,
Tickle the ears and kill the faith.

Rightly divide The Word of Truth,
Profit for doctrine and reproof,
Rightly divide The Word of Truth,
understand Scripture and it's use.

Liberal Mediocrity
Modernistic tainted by the world.
Politically Correct,
Open mind is poisoned to death.

Read it, live it.
The Lord is coming for a spotless church.
Repentant, forgiven.
Not deceived by words of man.

Now does that sing about or to God? No, but that doesnt make it evil. Songs dont have to be blatantly Christian or fit your mold - its called creativity. Why do you obsess so much over this? Its not your call to tell people what should be a part of Christianity and what shouldn't. I'm not saying every church should play metal, I'm simply looking for one that I would enjoy going to.

You never addressed my main point: Worship comes in many forms, music is just one. I enjoy Christian contemporary and hymn songs, but I want some variety. God is not an angry old man waiting to squash anyone who thinks outside the box or chooses a different view - he created free will. I try to follow His Word, but none of us are perfect (sorry to burst your bubble). How can you not see how God can work through Christian metal? Another point you never addressed: How would you minister to those kinds of people? The Bible says to preach to every living creature - that includes metalheads, whether you like it or not. You go up to a metalhead with all the piercings and tatoos and try to preach your KJV to him, I guarantee he wont fall on his knees. There are many different ways to present the gospel, but you're just blind to God's power if you can't believe that he can use anything and anyone for His will. I'm taking a stand against people like you all the time, the judgmental and self-righteous Christians who have polluted our world. Seriously, you all are hurting everyone more than helping them.  

[Tibby]

Good lord are you an idiot, Tibby. Beethoven and Bach are overrated?!? The song is ABOUT God, not to Him?!? What difference is that going to make? If you know so much, you should know that song is a direct quote from Ecclesiastes 12 - so dont tell me its not God honoring. People dont want to hear "praise God" if they don't know who or what God is ABOUT! Don't be ridiculous, you're only proving why so many people don't like stereotypical Christians. "Christian porn"? You're carrying it a bit far now, aren't you? The fact is, I have changed for God, and if He sent an angel or messenger to tell me Christian metal is not pleasing to Him, I would not listen to it. You are so judgmental and you don't even realize it.

I’m an idiot? I'm a fool? Pretty harsh, don’t ya think? Eh, I’ve called Jason that before, so I can’t say anything. Don’t want to be a Hypocrite, now do I? But that was when he was called me a Pagan. I don’t think I’ve ever called someone an idiot over Musical preference. To each his own, right? After all, I don’t want to be so judgmental, either, do I?

Who are you to tell people what's right to have in the house of God? I'm sure you be the kind of fool who'd turn away prostitutes and such because of your extreme judgment.

Of course I would. I’m a strong supporter of Sex only after marriage, any on top of that, who knows what she might have! Ok, for real, aren’t you being a little judgmental there your self? You don't even know me and you are stereotyping me! You are doing just what you accuse us of doing.

God can use ANYONE AND ANYTHING.

Really? ANYONE? ANYTHING? Well, how about Ron Jeremy making a Evangelical Erotica? Is God going to do that any time soon? How about a "Drink with Jesus" Kegger, so we can get drunk and read the bible! Free beer, that will bring those sinfull college students in, whe nwe can read the bible to them! Yes, God CAN use ANYONE AND ANYTHING, that doesn't mean he will!

He created it, so don't tell me a musical style is displeasing to Him. The Bible and Scripture is not a toy for you to abuse and misuse to see whatever view you accept. Here's another song for you:

Liberal Mediocrity
Taking from The Word is a disgrace.
Politically Correct,
Tickle the ears and kill the faith.

Rightly divide The Word of Truth,
Profit for doctrine and reproof,
Rightly divide The Word of Truth,
understand Scripture and it's use.

Liberal Mediocrity
Modernistic tainted by the world.
Politically Correct,
Open mind is poisoned to death.

Read it, live it.
The Lord is coming for a spotless church.
Repentant, forgiven.
Not deceived by words of man.

Now does that sing about or to God? No, but that doesnt make it evil. Songs dont have to be blatantly Christian or fit your mold - its called creativity. Why do you obsess so much over this? Its not your call to tell people what should be a part of Christianity and what shouldn't. I'm not saying every church should play metal, I'm simply looking for one that I would enjoy going to.

Good song. Telling us to rebel against society and the norm, your average lyrics for Rock and Metal music. It isn’t praising God, it is downing the norm and telling the fans to follow a different path. What is he praising? Teenage rebellion? Giving an old story a Christian twist.

You never addressed my main point: Worship comes in many forms, music is just one.

This was never your "main point." And yes, it does, who is debating that?

I enjoy Christian contemporary and hymn songs, but I want some variety. God is not an angry old man waiting to squash anyone who thinks outside the box or chooses a different view - he created free will. I try to follow His Word, but none of us are perfect (sorry to burst your bubble). How can you not see how God can work through Christian metal? Another point you never addressed: How would you minister to those kinds of people? The Bible says to preach to every living creature - that includes metalheads, whether you like it or not. You go up to a metalhead with all the piercings and tatoos and try to preach your KJV to him, I guarantee he wont fall on his knees. There are many different ways to present the gospel, but you're just blind to God's power if you can't believe that he can use anything and anyone for His will. I'm taking a stand against people like you all the time, the judgmental and self-righteous Christians who have polluted our world. Seriously, you all are hurting everyone more than helping them.  

Hey, Jason is he KJV reader hear. I don't even like it, I'm more of a NAS kind of guy. You want some variety? I didn’t know Praise and Worship was the KEBX Request line! Preach to them all you want, I'm not debating that either. I think you have lost the topic. Metalheads need to be preached to, but this isn’t Dell, we don’t order custom Gospels to fit our need. The word is the word!

And for the record, I'm taking a stand against people like you all the time, your the judgmental and self-righteous Christians that try to cover it with rebellion who have polluted our world. Seriously... just, seriously, man, do you read your own posts? You are acting like you are right, and we are wrong, but you are condemning us for acting the same way. Then you call us Hypocrites! Why are we Hypocrites? We follow what we believe!

[TaylorC]

Man you are an arrogant [expletive] arent you? You call me a hypocrite and then do exactly what I claim you do. What have I done that's been in my posts? I don't judge you, I can't see how I do. Prove some of this trash you're talking to me and then we'll see. I am certainly not self-righteous either, I can atleast admit when I'm wrong. You go on and on about this trivial issue just because you are so convinced you're the right one. Would Christ turn away prostitutes? No, they're sinners too, he'd forgive them. HOW DID THAT SONG PROMOTE REBELLION IN ANYWAY??? Its saying, be careful how you interpret the Bible! I obviously see now what a blind Christian you are, and I'm not saying I'm perfect, but if you got THAT idea from that song - seek counseling (Godly counseling). Does ANYONE at these forums like you?

[Tibby]

If you would read my post above, would you have over half those burning questions of yours answered. I didn't prove this "trash" I'm talking. And when did you ever admit you where wrong? What trivial issue? You are ranting about us being so prideful and getting way off topic, even going so far as to attack me personally! Meanwhile, I am staying on the topic, talking about this Heavy Metal Church, and why I disagree with it. Well, with that said, I have taken even question in your post, broken them down ,and now I answer them:

Man you are an arrogant [expletive] arent you?

Jason seems to think so. I just call it like I see it. If you don’t like it, I am truly sorry. This is a Discussion form, and place for us to meet and Discuss issues.

You call me a hypocrite and then do exactly what I claim you do. What have I done that's been in my posts?

You have judged me, then condemned me your judging, just to name one thing, This is an example of one of those thing you could have read in my last reply. See my reply to the last question for more on this issue.

Would Christ turn away prostitutes?

No. That was sarcasm I posted above. A little of my strange sense of humor :-D Again, you are stereotyping me as someone who would not spread the Gospel to the lost. I would jump at the chance if it presented it self. For the same reason I would not use Metal music to reach metal heads, I would not lower my self to her level, and use sexually actions to Evangelize her.

 

HOW DID THAT SONG PROMOTE REBELLION IN ANYWAY???

Next time, don’t just paste the lyrics, try reading them. I will quote my self when I first replied to this song, I said it was “telling us to rebel against society and the norm.”

Does ANYONE at these forums like you?

Would Christ ask someone something like that? Would Christ ask a prostitute that? Would Christ ask a Tax collector that? Would Christ call someone an “idiot” and a “fools” and an “arrogant [expletive]” what ever “[expletive]” originally. Would Christ say “Does anyone like you?” in an attempt to anger and upset them?


Please, post like a Born-again Adult, or don’t post at all.

[nChrist]

Oklahoma Howdy to All,

Tibby, I think you started far too harsh, and you got a response from someone who didn't understand why you were being so harsh. I still don't think that you understand what TaylorC said and why he said it. I am an older person and would probably be called a SQUARE by many young people. However, I have some relatives who changed my views about preaching the gospel and bringing people to Christ.

I asked TaylorC if he felt lead by God to do this. There are many kinds of ministries that are not done inside our safe and traditional churches. I'm absolutely positive there are those who are called by God to do other and probably harder types of ministry (i.e. jails, streets, clubs, jungles, etc., etc.). I have family members who have and still are doing various missionary work in Columbia, Chile, Old Mexico, and several other foreign countries). I have other relatives working on college grounds with the Navigators. My 18 year old niece is preparing to leave to another South American country as a missionary.

I think you are being far too harsh with someone who God may have called to do exactly what TaylorC is trying to do. If so, you might have something different to say to TaylorC. Would I be right, and have you thought about this possibly being a calling from God?

In Christ,
Tom

[TaylorC]

Speaking of which, how old are you Tibby? Just want to know if I'm debating against some hardheaded, 70-yr old man or something. I do not judge you, I simply try to show you my opinions as well. Your responses to my questions are all so vague anyways.

Show me how I've been judgmental and where in those lyrics it preaches rebellion. "Rightly divide the Word of truth, profit for doctrine and reproof, Rightly divide the Word of truth, understand scripture and its use" - that doesnt seem rebellious at all to me, it's telling us (as I said before that you managed to ignore) to be careful of how we interpret scripture and not to use it out of context.

"Would Christ ask someone something like that? Would Christ ask a prostitute that? Would Christ ask a Tax collector that? Would Christ call someone an “idiot” and a “fools” and an “arrogant [expletive]” what ever “[expletive]” originally. Would Christ say “Does anyone like you?” in an attempt to anger and upset them? Please, post like a Born-again Adult, or don’t post at all." - Obviously you missed the point I made that none of us are perfect (or you must believe only you are). Nevertheless, how can you compare anyone to Christ since He is perfect? I know I mess up a lot, and I'm sorry for stuff like that and if I offend you. I honestly dont understand why you had to put in your 2 cents when it doesnt help anything at all.

Remember, I'm only asking about those churches, not asking for your judgments or beliefs about them. I can decide for myself whether the church is something truly worshipful and God-honoring or not. It's not for you to try to lead me away from the kind of Christian fellowship I enjoy. I have met some incredible Christian metalheads who are continually having truth revealed to them everyday. My question to you is, do you believe God can speak to us outside of the Bible? Also, do you believe that people can corrupt our view of Christianity? And finally, what made you conclude that most of all talented Christian music doesnt belong in church? I think God would want us to show the talents He gave us.

[nChrist]

Hello TaylorC,

I have no idea what the exact circumstances are. I would tell you there are some fairly big churches that don't allow music of any type in the church. They sing, but their beliefs don't allow instruments. If that is the case here, I could somewhat understand the harsh answer from tibby. If that's not the case, I would tell you there are lots of Christians who don't know there are ministries outside of churches and ministries specifically designed to reach those who won't be reached in a church.

In Christ,
Tom
 

[Saved_4ever]

WOW!!! That's awesome, someone called ME puritanical.  HAHA!!!  That makes me laugh.  I'll have to tell some of my church brethren that one.   The best part about you telling me I'm puritanical is that all I posted was that I hoped there was no such thing.

Seeing as I am such an old man apparently (at 26 no less) maybe my opinion doesn't count to some.  I would like ANYONE to show me where music was ever used to bring someone to salvation.  We are told to be in the world and not of the world.  I have seen nowhere that we need to update ourselves and the presenting of the gospel.  There is one way to present it.  

Rom 10:17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

I don't see anything about pounding out some cheap power chords and screaming at people.  Considering I have been playing music since the 4th grade, and my first favorite band was METALLICA I'd say I know a thing or two about your music.  I dropped the bad habit called metal by the time I was in HS but that's beside the point.

If it makes you feel any better I can't stand country music either nor do I find it the "christian" way for music.  Having tatoo's and peircings sounds like defiling the temple of God to me and I see no justification to it.  Jesus never changed his appearance any and in fact looked like a "plain Jane".  

I can fully see you being all judgmental and if you can't see it you should seriously take a look at what you posted.  Music is NOT needed to further the gospel.  In fact I contend the only purpose of music is for the edifying of each other, so really hymns and such are for the believer.  Did Jesus ever sing to anyone?  I don't recall reading about do you?  98% of all rock music is rebelious and you can deny it all you want but you would still be wrong.  Why do you think the world clings to it so strongly especially teenagers who hate their "controling, old school parents?"

You said you aren't on a mission but you only shied from saying that verbatim really.

I played in a "rock" band for several years and I can tell you Christians who play the role are easy to get along with but no one takes them seriously and only go along with it so long as they don't have to change.  That's contrary to scripture for sure as one becomes a "new creature in christ" so to stay the same is a sign of something "not good".  If I go to a jail to preach the gospel I'm not going to get all tough and rough like the inmates.  I'm going to look respectable and present a sound gospel.  We aren't out to reach the lost with new and man made devices but the simple word of God.

24 years of my life were for no one other than myself and the devil and it's quite sad to see some people so easily decieved.

But hey this old ex druggie doesn't know nothing cause he's all puritanical and stuff.  I know maybe I should light up a joint and toke with some potheads to reach them.  YEAH!! That's it....... I off to pick up a phatty quater of some kind buds baby.  Yeehaw!!! Here I come world.  

[Tibby]

Took the words out of my mouth, Jason. I was wondering when you where going to pipe in. lol

Oh, and I’m 19, but I don’t see anything wrong with being a 70 year old man. This is the kind of disrespect rampant in the Heavy metal sub-culture. To show that heavy metal is wrong, even when it is pretending to be Christian, you need to look no further then your own clearly stated thoughts on the elderly. Instead of taking the wisdom and advise from people who have been there and done that, you throw all their advise out the window because they are old? Why don’t you throw the whole bible out with it?

blackeyedpeas- Let me remind you and your little metal head friend there that I’m the only one that answered his question. You make small talk, I at least answered his question, and I did so in my very first post. Then Taylor went off on the “close-minded” Christians, and I felt the need to defend what I believe.
After all, no one can bash my acherival but me lol

[nChrist]

blackeyedpeas- Let me remind you and your little metal head friend there that I’m the only one that answered his question. You make small talk, I at least answered his question, and I did so in my very first post. Then Taylor went off on the “close-minded” Christians, and I felt the need to defend what I believe.
After all, no one can bash my acherival but me lol

Oklahoma Howdy to Tibby,

I'm not 70 years old, but I do have socks older than all in the discussion, and I'm wearing them.  

I would certainly not advocate anyone doing drugs or getting drunk trying to reach someone for Christ. However, I do still have mixed emotions about many forms of ministry that are not traditional. I've been to open meetings of all kinds, and something was usually used to get the people there (i.e. food, soda pop, music, etc.). I'm thinking specifically about a huge meeting I went to in the middle of some projects. The drawing card was food and soft drinks. The minister talked about the neighborhood, cracked some jokes, and then he preached the gospel. The crowd was extremely rough, and I would guess the crime rate went down considerably during that 2 to 3 hours. The minister had about 50 helpers from his church to do individual witnessing, counseling, passing out Bible tracts, and giving away all kinds of material about drug abuse and you name it. I will guarantee you that God's work was done that night and many people were saved.

I was simply trying to state there are alternative ministries that work when nothing else will work. Most of the missionaries in my family know about building, wells, treating water, sanitation, nursing, and all kinds of other skills the people are in desperate need of. They use these skills as a drawing card and preaching the gospel. I'm a retired cop, and I've been around the block quite a few times. In fact, I left some of my body parts on some of those blocks.   I don't have a closed mind to alternative ministries because I know many of them work and have good results.

I'm the old guy here, and I think some of you youngsters are a little bit closed minded.  

In Christ,
Tom

[nChrist]

Oklahoma Howdy to Saved_4ever,

Jason, I had no idea you were that young. Are you shaving yet.  

I understand your perspective on a lot of things you said, and I would agree with most of them. However, I would disagree that music can't be used to reach the lost.

I come from a family full of preachers and missionaries. My dad was a minister for 60 years. My mother and dad sang gospel music and played various instruments on big radio stations to get their first preaching engagements. He did what they call circuit preaching for nearly 30 of those years, and music was a major drawing card to get the folks there. Every service was about 1/3 music and 2/3 preaching. They continued to do this several days a week for years after moving into a permanent church building. As a result, lots of folks drove 40 to 70 miles on Sunday for church.

I still love gospel music, but I like it the old-fashioned way with soft harmony, a piano, an organ, and maybe some other instruments that compliment and blend. On the road, those larger instruments aren't available, so guitar and other smaller instruments have to be used. Just a little trivia you might get a laugh out of. My parents first sound system ran off of multiple car batteries and the speakers were mounted on top of the car. It was given to them by the Sons of the Pioneers, the singing group who played with Roy Rogers. Is that too far back in the stone-age for you to know about?  

In Christ,
Tom

[Allinall]

Oklahoma Howdy to Saved_4ever,

Jason, I had no idea you were that young. Are you shaving yet.  

*LOL* Now that made me laugh quite heartily!  Jas?  You surely are a youngin'.  I've had diabetes nearly as long as you've lived, give or take a couple of years...

[Tibby]

That is great BEP! The rival sounds good. But you didn't have to use Music. Team Xtreme or the CWF would have drawn people the same way. It is all about shock factor. the to guys running the thing could have dressed up in cowboy boots and Indian Headdresses on there head and step danced, and people would have come, because they want to so it. Jasons statement that "I would like ANYONE to show me where music was ever used to bring someone to salvation." YOu can't, it doesn't happen. Music can bring in, as can a lot of other stuff. But you might as well play Korn!

This is my experance with these "Modren" churches:

http://www.brewtones.com/

This junk is a CHURCH website, much like the Church wed sites all over the country. Youth making out in the back, parents scared to do into the building. No rival, but bad music pretending to be Christian and a bunch of teens. Welcome to the world of the MTV church. THIS is why we should stay away from these kinds of churches, the become social club, hang outs, nothing more. I stand beside my statement, Keep your music OUT of the Church!

[nChrist]

Howdy Tibby,

I don't know a thing about Metal music, so that's not my music. However, I stand by my statement too. Music has and will be used to get people to services and listen to the Gospel. I guess we'll just have to disagree.    

Regarding inappropriate behavior at a church, I would blame that on the pastor or whoever was in charge at the time. I would also blame that on the parents if they knew anything about it. I wouldn't blame it on music.

There are some kinds of music that I would be totally against. I haven't heard any of it, but I've read about it (i.e. kill, strangle, blood, suicide, etc. stuff). Most young people would be bored out of their minds with the music I like to listen to, but you might be an exception.   (Just Kidding You). I like George Beverly Shay, The Gaithers, several quartets, choirs, etc. About the wildest thing they do is use beautiful voices in soft and pretty harmony. YES, I do think their music has drawn people to Christ and to the Word.

In Christ,
Tom