How well do you know your Bible?

[Saved_4ever]

Now, as for the rest of your stuff, all I have to say is WHAT!? What does that have to do with anything? We all know how to be saved, we all read the bible! And that second post… Well, you complete lost me with that one. I don’t recall God killing animals and clothing Adam and Eve with them, and I don’t see the relevance of Animal sacrificing with all this.

And to think you said you read your bible.  Tisk tisk, typical of a catholic really.  No we all don't know how to be saved.  I have NEVER heard a sermon in a catholic church that said anything about salvation.  That's another story though.  

Do tell tibby, how does one became saved?  You can't even seem to remember the first chapters of Genisis.  If you can't see the significance of animal sacrifice in the OT what do you get?
 
 

[Tibby]

Very good. A Cookie for The King James Kid. Aren’t you the smart little Baptist. Yes, Jason, we know about Geneses, we know about Animal Sacrifices.

The thing I fail to see is why this is relevant to the current topic. I never said the bible doesn’t have Animal Scarifies in it, I just don't see why he brought it up. We are talking about NT salvation, Jason, not OT Traditions.

How does one become Saved, uh? This is a detailed topic. Matthew says he who stands firm in persecuted will be saved (Matthew chapters 10 & 24). Mark says whoever believes and is baptized will be saved (Mark 16). In Act, they say they believe Grace saves us (Acts 15), and then later says All you must do in believe in Jesus(Acts 16). In Romans, it states that we are to confesses with our physical selves and believe in our hearts to be saved (Romans 10). Corinthians says hold on to the gospel saves us (1 Cor 15). I could go on and on, but I think you get the idea. I’m going to just stick with that the bibles says on this.

[Saved_4ever]

Tell me Tib's, it sounds like you are unsure of what saves us.  You say you will stick to the bible on this one.  It sounds like you are confused and unable to put "line upon line, precept upon precept..rightly dividing the word of Truth".  Are you unable currently to make all those pieces together and get an answer.  If I did not know the bible at all it sounds like you are claiming there is many a way to heaven.

If you can't see the significance of the OT to the NT then we have a problem.  What do you think the OT is for then?

[Tibby]

Nevermind, Jason.

[Agur3046]

Dear Tibby:

"You attack Catholics because you want someone to attack. We tell you the truth, and you guys don’t listen! You think you know more about the Catholic Beliefs then Catholics do. I think I’d know a little bit more about Catholics then most Non-Catholics, thank you very much! Your right, we don’t see Praying to Mary or idolizing the likeness of saints in the bible, and that is precisely why Catholics don’t do that sort of thing!"

       I'm suprised by your comments; you really think that were just out there to hack at your faith?  I wouldn't be suprized that a few view we simply exist to feed off of the pain of loyal but unsuspecting catholics.  Thats ok, i think everybody believe so much in their faith/religion that they tend to feel any opposition/outreach is an attack by Satan.  Keep in mind however that we too feel the same with ours but both sides should open up.  Here's why the Gospel cannot be ignored:

6   I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7   Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8   But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9   As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. - Galatians 1:6-9

       If we we're out there only to attack either out of pleasure or hatred, we'd only focus on the controversies, the qweerness, and the illogicals of the RCC; the Bible would be just another tool for us.  
      For me, I rarely bring up the history because that is not what's important.  I do however talk about RCC doctrines, but I let the person choose if thye don't want to talk about Salvation.

      Now about Salvation, if you want to go through the Bible with me like the Bereans, then I perfer an even exchange of verses.  That means if I give you a verse, your job is to answer that verse, and when you are done, you can give me a verse in return.  For a topic such as this, the Bible would be very clear on what it really says so we definity need to do this.

God bless

agur

[Tibby]

Dear Tibby:

"You attack Catholics because you want someone to attack. We tell you the truth, and you guys don’t listen! You think you know more about the Catholic Beliefs then Catholics do. I think I’d know a little bit more about Catholics then most Non-Catholics, thank you very much! Your right, we don’t see Praying to Mary or idolizing the likeness of saints in the bible, and that is precisely why Catholics don’t do that sort of thing!"

       I'm suprised by your comments; you really think that were just out there to hack at your faith?  I wouldn't be suprized that a few view we simply exist to feed off of the pain of loyal but unsuspecting catholics.  Thats ok, i think everybody believe so much in their faith/religion that they tend to feel any opposition/outreach is an attack by Satan.  Keep in mind however that we too feel the same with ours but both sides should open up.

No, not JUST to, I think there are people who honestly believe what they are told about Catholics, and have a desire to “save” us. There heart is in the right place, but there facts are all wrong. Then there ARE others, who just want to attack Catholics.

Also, I don’t see Catholicsism as a “faith” I see it as a Christian rite of sorts, how we interpret the bible. I know you didn’t mean it like that, but I just wanted to make that clear, because some LOVE to argue over Semitics.

Here's why the Gospel cannot be ignored:

6   I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7   Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8   But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9   As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. - Galatians 1:6-9

Again, you are posting things and not explaining the relevance. I know the Gospel can not be ignored, but what does that have to do with the topic at hand?

If we we're out there only to attack either out of pleasure or hatred, we'd only focus on the controversies, the qweerness, and the illogicals of the RCC; the Bible would be just another tool for us.  

And I would try to explain all of this to you, and show it that it isn’t controversial, the queer, or illogical. If you would be willing to listen, of course.

For me, I rarely bring up the history because that is not what's important.  I do however talk about RCC doctrines, but I let the person choose if thye don't want to talk about Salvation.

But you cannot talk about the RCC Doctrines and avoid the history that started them.

Now about Salvation, if you want to go through the Bible with me like the Bereans, then I perfer an even exchange of verses.  That means if I give you a verse, your job is to answer that verse, and when you are done, you can give me a verse in return.  For a topic such as this, the Bible would be very clear on what it really says so we definity need to do this.

Sounds like fun. But define “Answer” the verse, first. You want our interpretation? And am I to pick random verses about Salvation, or one that rebuttals the one you posted, and/or backs my interpretation up?

[linuxgeek]

I left the Roman Catholic Church less then two years ago.  I was born into a RC family and about two years ago went through the 6 month RCIA program for confirmation; I dropped out when I decided to follow Jesus instead.  Afterwards I did much reading on Catholicism with the help of a priest from DeSalles University, a Roman Catholic college for seminarians.  I was shocked at what I learned, but not  surprised.

THIS IS NOT AN ATTACK -- THESE ARE FACTS THAT CAN BE SUBSTANTIATED, I LOOKED THEM UP, WAS TAUGHT THEM BY RCC and can refute all of them.


Here are some of the things that got me questioning the Roman Catholic faith, to which no priest could answer.  

Absolution, um, the Bible is clear, God alone forgives sin, which the RC do not deny, yet the absolution comes through the priest, you can not go direct.  Yet the BIble is clear "-In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins: (Col 1:14)"

Confession -- some sins can only be forgiven by the local bishop or even the bishop of the Arch Dioceses. Example, until 1998, our parish was not allow to forgive the sin of abortion.  It could only be done by the local bishop, nobody else.  So, my question then was this.  Suppose a young woman has an abortion and truly realises her sin, repents and wants forgiveness from God.  She comes to the parish and goes into the confesssional.  Makes the sign of the cross and recites the words used to address the priest. Then she asks forgivness for her abortion, to bad.  She would be told that she needs to come back when the bishop is in and that is on such-and-such a day.  So she leaves the church, distraught, and walks outside to get hit by a city bus, she dies right there.  Where does she go?  To heaven or hell?  According to the Catechism, and the priest that I spoke with, she goes to hell becuase she is unforgiven for her sin.

Unbaptised babies -- the priest teaching our class, his boss, and every priest I asked had one thing to say.  The babies would go to hell, but that we have to rely on the mercy of God to get them out.  

Why is is that the priest has the authority from God to give absolution for ones sins and not anyone else.  Answer from priest.  Because the priest has Christ in them.  Reply: so when I receive communion on Sunday I can turn to the person behind me and forgive them sin.  Priests reply, no I can not.   Then why do I need communion every Sunday?  Because we sin during the week and we need to come back to God.  Reply: But I thought then when we accept Christ into our heart He is there, and does not leave, so why do I need to have Him come back in every week?  Answer from priest -- don't you want Christ in you every week?  (or something similar)

Transubstansiation -- the wafer is turned into Christ.  My reply -- so when mass is finished you lock up Christ in the tabernacle until the next mass?  Priest -- No, it is your belief and faith that turns the wafer to Christ.  Reply -- but if I already believe in Christ why do I need to take a wafer and turn it into Christ?

Mary -- not co-redeemer.  Vatican is pushing this.  Jesus is the redeemer, our advocate to God.  He will not deny those that do not deny Him.  He never said that we can count on His earthly mother too.  Mary mother of God -- WOW!  God was and always is, not possible for a human to be the mother of the living God.  Mother of Jesus, yes, but when a woman tried to exhalt Mary what does Jesus say to her statement?  She says, blessed is the womb that bore you and blesses are the papst that gave you suck.  Jesus says, rather blessed is the person that hears the word of God and keeps it.  He could have said that, yes you are right and the Father sent me (Jesus) and her (Mary) so that all sins can be forgiven. He could have gone on to say that my mother is also one to believe in for eternal life.  So when Jesus says (Jn 14:6) I am the way the truth and the light, for no man cometh unto the Father but by Me, did He lie?  God forbid!!  

Christmass -- Pagan holiday given us by Constantine of Rome.  The early church fathers were honoring January 6 as the birth of Christ, even though that time of year was impossible for his birth.  Constantine thought himself the highest priest (Pontificuss Maximus) and forced the Church and the pagans to celebrate their gods on December 25th.  To this day the pope is often called the pontiff.  

Halloween -- um, all saints day, right?  We are all saints and why do we need to honor dead people.  When Jesus said let the dead bury their dead He was not referring to corpses burying corpses.  He said let the dead (non-believers) bury their dead.  It just so happens that this day is the highest and most important day of the satanic year.  And like christmass, some priests will tell you that the early church tried to usurp the local pagan traditions with the church.  Jesus preached the word of God, God does not change today, yesterday or tomorrow.  When people did not want to hear what Christ had to say He never altered the truth or God's word to try and entice people to His message.  You accept it or you don't.  Paul, the apostle was all things to all people in order to bring them to the message of Jesus, but He did not alter scripture or the message of the cross to convert the Greeks or the Romans.  Apollos used the Old Testament alone to convert skeptical jews, because the New Testament had not yet been written.

1754 cannon laws of the RCC.  Once a law they will not remove it ever.  Even the law that gives the pope the right to practice anethmas.  

Vicar of Christ -- an offical title of the pope.  All belivers of Christ are ambassadors, we die to our will and live for the will of God.  The offical catechism of the RCC is that all catholics MUST surrender their thoughts and minds to the pope -- look it up, I did. This means you can not follow Jesus, but the pope only. If one remains a catholic and does not agree with all of their rules, this by definition is hypocritical since the RCC insists all catholics strictly adhere to their teachings and their teachings alone.  Again, this is all in the catechism of the RCC.

Holy Father -- is God in heaven and for anyone to allow themselves to be called this is risking blasphemey! Holy Father is mentioned once in the Bible and it most certainly refers to God alone.  Look it up, I did.  The apostle Peter was so humbled that he insisted on being crucified upside down because he was not worthy to even be crucified being upright like the Lord God.  Peter was given the keys to heaven. Peter and the apostles rose people from the dead, no pope has ever done that.

Infallible -- the pope, when speaking from chair of Peter, OR all the bishops of Rome, when acting united (called the _oly see) are infallabile.  Yet this was often argued by popes, and many popes have reversed an infallabile rule given by their predecessor.  Does God make mistakes?

The apostle Paul considered all of his earthly possesions as dung. The pope has garments worth more then one million dollars.  Paul worked to support his ministry and the fellows that walked with him.  

Annulment -- When you are married the priest will recite from the Bible and often say that phrase they nullify with annulments.  Let no man seperate what God has joined.  I wanna know how they do it?  They have a perfectly reasonable explination.  Suppose two people get married and the man becomes a wife beater, nasty nasty stuff.  The woman can therefore get an annulment like it never happened (the kids are now illegitamate).  Yet the Bible is clear on this, if one leaves then they cause the other to sin.  That is if they are both believers.  No wife beater is a believer of Christ.  So she can leave, but she is still married and can not marry again.  Now, it goes one step further.  I can walk into a RCC and announce  I want an annullment, since I was married in a RCC, and myh reason only has to be that I had expectations that my wife did not meet.  This was explained to me by a RCC priest who was also a church lawyer, he knew church law.  I can state that when I married my wife I fully expected that after 10 years of marriage we would own our own business, and we don't.  So I want a divorce.  With much effort on the part of the church for me to reconsider, they would still have to grant the annulment according to their law.  My wife doesn't even have to know about my expectations.  Basically, you can get a divorce for what ever reason you like and the RCC permits and therefore teaches sin.

I just provided months worth of research and knowledge.  All is true and can be substantiated, look it up.  Get a copy of the Official Roman Catholic Catechism and the law of cannon.  You will be surprised.  

LinuxGeek

[Agur3046]

Dear Tibby

       I am willing to hear from your side.  I must however tell you that I am unwilling to read any book UNLESS the challenger does his/her part as well.
       As for the verse in Galatians, I posted that because thats the one Gospel, (yours or mine) that we must ber ready to aid away  If any believes in a gospel that is not taught by the Apostles, it is likely, the believer of such a gospel is not saved.  Galatians makes it clear that such a gospel brought by someone is accursed.  If mine gospel is false, I expect you to reach me because after all, maybe my gospel is an advocation to lawlessness.  However, if we are right about yours, then your Gospel is like all other religions that it tries to reach a Holy God by Works.
        The answering of verses can be seen as giving your opinion, but your opinion must have good reason behind it.

Ps.  You want to start off or let me fire first?  If you dom gio ahead and post a verse.

I'll be back next week - God Bless

agur

[Allinall]

Linuxgeek?  Can I just say...AAAAAAAAAAAAAMMMMMMMMEEENNNNNNN!!!!!

[Tibby]

Good stuff, I’ll reply later today when I have more time. I just want to point out that you said the Church Fathers did this, or the Church Fathers did that, you forgot to mention the Church fathers believe in Infant Baptist and Transubstansiation. The Church Fathers partook in Communion every time they met.

You just provided months worth of research and knowledge, so I’m going be fair and at least give you an afternoons worth of replies. In the mean time, if you would like these answers from some wise Catholic Scholars (as oppose to a smart mouth college student), check out the ETWN website:

http://www.ewtn.com/

Click on “Catholic Q&A” and search for a topic, or then ask new question. It looks like most of there mail boxes are full right now, but check back in a little bit. You can just copy and paste what you typed here on to them. These guys are some of best apologist, and they can easier help you where the Priest failed. Keep in mind these are ROMAN Catholics. I know where you are, my Fatehr found his self in one such place, the Preist not able to answer his question. He made the mistake of leaving as well, and stayed gone for most of his life.

A still do not see what all that about Gospel does for the topic at hand...

I'll post the verse later today.

[linuxgeek]

Tibby,

The most important goal we can strive for is our salvation; Jesus said He is the way and any that believe in Him are saved.  This is important.

As for scholars I don't think asking Roman Catholic scholars about Roman Catholicism will do me any good.  They can substantiate everything I listed as most of it comes from the modern day Catholics catechism.  However they will refute that the pope is fallable when speaking from the chair, so, as Jesus did, I too leave anyone who believes something other then the word of God to themselves.  Either you accept it or you don't, it really is that simple. I don't need to ask the scholars because I read the Bible, I pray to God and He is not a liar.  All who seek shall find.

Many people are discontent with the RCC because of the points I mentioned; they are not in scripture and it certainly appears that the RCC is teaching false scripture with the exhalting of Mary, the Saints and their own doctrine.

Brother/Sister  -- I truly hope that one day you leave the RCC, but what is more important is that you believe in Jesus and do follow His commands.  

LinuxGeek

[Tibby]

lol, why is it everyone always says “Salvation is the most important thing” before starting in on Catholics? Everyone says “Salvation is the most important thing” seem to focus more on attacking the Catholics church, not saving the Catholic Church. That is one of the reason I left  Protestantism. If I went into a room full of Protestant, and bashed Catholics, I am cheered on, when I mention something I don’t like about Protestants in a harsh manor, my Catholic brothers shush me, and remind me they are still the Church, still Christians. I have a habit of ranting about what I find to be injustice in the world. I’ve been told many times by Catholics, priest and layman a like, I am to harsh on Protestants, and that I should be kinder to my brothers. I have never ONCE, not even ONCE, heard any Protestant, Pastor, Preacher, or parishioner, tell someone to stop attacking Catholics.

Oh, and please stop saying ALL of those things are in the Catechism, you have several things that aren’t on that list of the Roman Catechism. A lot of it isn’t, in fact. I just double checked.

The Reason I directed you to the Catholic Scholars is because you said:

Here are some of the things that got me questioning the Roman Catholic faith, to which no priest could answer.  

Final note: It’s Brother. and I’m not Roman Catholic. I never said I was ROMAN Catholic, you assumed as such. I’m going to post my denomination in my sig some day. There are other types of Catholic out there (not counting the Independent Nuts). Most of which do not believe in the Mary Doctrine, or Papal Infallible.

[linuxgeek]

Tibby

I am sorry, I have no way of knowing if you are male or female with the handle Tibby.  I did not want to assume yet I wronged when I assumed you were in the RCC.  However you still seem very bitter and I am not going to debate; I am not out to attack Roman Catholics.  I do want to reply to some of your information as it may lead others to the wrong impression of non Catholics, as catholics are believers.

lol, why is it everyone always says “Salvation is the most important thing” before starting in on Catholics?
Salvation is the most important thing to anyone, even the believers of Christ.  I would say the same thing to a muslim or Hindu

Everyone says “Salvation is the most important thing” seem to focus more on attacking the Catholics church, not saving the Catholic Church.
You seem to have that impression yet I hear of salvation from people without attacking anyone, or any church because salvation is so important. I am sorry for your experiences that cause bitterness. I too have many bitter memories that I choose not to let surface in conversation.


That is one of the reason I left  Protestantism. If I went into a room full of Protestant, and bashed Catholics, I am cheered on,
This does not happen in many churches and I personally do not know of any, not that my knowledge of a few bad churches or your knowledge of a few bad churches is sufficient to tarnish an entire body of people.

when I mention something I don’t like about Protestants in a harsh manor, my Catholic brothers shush me, and remind me they are still the Church, still Christians.
Yet the RCC catechism claims they are the only church.  There is no salvation outside of the RCC

I have a habit of ranting about what I find to be injustice in the world.
False teachers and doctrine is not the only injustice in the world.  There are abortions, homosexual lifestyles, and way to much adultery and fornication.  We are not to be of this world, but keep our focus on Jesus.

I’ve been told many times by Catholics, priest and layman a like, I am to harsh on Protestants, and that I should be kinder to my brothers.
The Arabs have an old proverb: If three men call you an ass by a saddle

I have never ONCE, not even ONCE, heard any Protestant, Pastor, Preacher, or parishioner, tell someone to stop attacking Catholics.
I have, it was one week ago.

Oh, and please stop saying ALL of those things are in the Catechism, you have several things that aren’t on that list of the Roman Catechism. A lot of it isn’t, in fact. I just double checked.
I don't believe you.  Everything I mentioned is in the modern day catechism and was taught to me or explained to me while I was in the 6 month RCIA program that the RCC teaches.  If you claim they are not there why did you not post them to refute me, instead of just saying they are not there?

The Reason I directed you to the Catholic Scholars is because you said:

Quote:
Here are some of the things that got me questioning the Roman Catholic faith, to which no priest could answer.
They can not answer those questions because to do so would require acknowledging their wrong teaching.  Their salvation is not for me, I truly wish everyone just did as Jesus instructed us. Either you are for Jesus or you are not; He could not make it any simpler.

Final note: It’s Brother. and I’m not Roman Catholic.
Again, I am truly sorry.  I did not want to upset you with assumptions, yet I made the assumption you were in the RCC.

I never said I was ROMAN Catholic, you assumed as such. I’m going to post my denomination in my sig some day.
My denomination is Jesus

There are other types of Catholic out there (not counting the Independent Nuts).
How can they be nuts and you not be?

Most of which do not believe in the Mary Doctrine, or Papal Infallible.
Yes, there are yet more factions seperating from the Church of Rome because they no longer believe in what the Vatican is spewing.  The Russian Orthodox and The Greek Orthodox split along time ago for that very reason.

Peace be with you brother, I too am a brother and we are all supposed to be one in the body of Christ.  Let's try and fulfill that.
LinuxGeek

[Tibby]

Honestly, if someone is bitter, why do people think pointing it out is going to do anything but stir it up?

You clearly don’t know as much as you think you do about the Catechism. Catholics and the Catechism do acknowledge all other form of Christianity. Baptist, Methodist, Non-denominational alike. Clearly, you DO need to visit a few Catholic Scholars, maybe the teachers could correct misconceptions like this one you have about the church you claim to have studied so thoroughly.

Yes, I understand about the name. Not upset about that. It isn’t the misinformation everyone spreads on Catholics I don’t like.

[Heidi]

Tibby,
I sympathize with your plight. Jesus talked in parables specifically for those He chose. So YES, the bible can be confusing! That's why there are so many disputes on this forum and why there are so many denominations. Sometimes I wished He had just SPELLED IT OUT in kndergartnen terms but I know he coudn't do that because people would have tried to prove Him wrong. So Jesus is relying on the Holy Spirit in each of us to interpret the bible according to His meaning.

For me, the best way to do that is to know that EVERYTHING in the bible HAS to agree. There are no contradictions. So if i see what looks like a contradiction then I know i'm not understanding it correctly. So then I try to put it all together to come up with a meaning that doesn't contradict anything else in the bible. As far as salvation goes, the two most specific comments Jesus made about it are 1. that we have to be born with water and the spirit, and 2. that we have to KNOW Him. He refers to those 2 comments all throughout the gospel but those are the most succinct. Luke is right when he says we have to be baptized with water, but according to Jesus, we also have to be baptized by the spririt. In Romans, Paul refers to some people who had been baptized with water but had not yet been baptized by the spirit. John the Baptist also makes reference to the fact that being baptized with water and baptized with the spirit are 2 separate acts.  Jesus also says about the ones He chose that, "No one can snatch them out of my hands." That means once saved, always saved. Jesus says many times that none of us is good enough to get into heaven which is why knowing Him is the only way. But since most of us don't feel worthy of this free gift (which we aren't), we feel we have to earn our way. that is a human tendency that is not endorsed b Christ. I hope this helps.