Salvation Contradictions?

[Supercryptid]

When I look at the scripture, I seem to find different things said about salvation. For instance, look at these verses:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." ~John 3:16

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." ~John 3:18

These verses seem to suggest that the only requirement for salvation is belief in Jesus. It offers no other specific conditions. Then I take a look at verses like these:

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." ~John 6:44

"Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father." ~John 6:65

These verses seem to suggest that a person cannot be saved simply by believing in Jesus. It offers the condition that a person must be drawn by God in order to achieve salvation.

What can we make of this? Is it simply a belief in Jesus that saves, or is it required that we are drawn by God first, then we can be saved through this belief?

Now I don't mean to expose my preacher's business in a bad light, but he did tell us (the church) a story that is relevant to this issue. He said that before he was truly saved, he came to Jesus and asked for salvation. According to him, Jesus said no! Apparently, he was not yet drawn by God, or the Holy Spirit. Why would Jesus have rejected him? It might have been because he wasn't willing to completely surrender to God, but I can't remember the real reason (if he even told it to us).

He says that Jesus has to accept us before we are saved. Now I have been drawn by the Spirit, I did go to the alter, and I did confess my sins and ask for forgiveness. Even after all of this, how do I know that Jesus has accepted me? After I left church that day, it still felt like something was wrong. I don't know what exactly. Was it because Jesus didn't accept me? I don't feel the peace that I have heard others speak of. I sometimes feel like I'm going crazy because I constantly wonder whether I have been thinking a particular bad thought long enough for it to be considered a sin. I end up asking for forgiveness for everything 24/7. It's very stressful.

[ggamble]

Read the thread, on Satan, lies and cheating, renewing the mind and crucifying the flesh and putting the Word in there to quench them thoughts, read the thread, there are other ones, and a book by Joyce Meyers, The Battlefield of the Mind, will give you in sight to walking a victorious walk without Satans trying to get you perplexed.

May the Lord Bless thee and Keep thee
Only Always for Jesus
in the love of a brother
ggamble

[Soldier4Christ]

No these are not contradictions. As ggamble said check out the thread that he pointed you to.

Supercryptid, almost all of your posts on here consist of doubt. Doubt in yourself, doubt in the Lord's promises, doubt in the word of God, and now doubt in your own Salvation. These are the things that satan wants us to do ... to doubt. When he convinces us to doubt in this manner he causes us to falter. It is by faith that we are saved not of anything that we can do. It is the knowledge of this and the knowledge that we know that God does not lie that we know that we are saved according to His promises.

[Shammu]

Hello Supercryptid, Click on this link, -----> Satan, lying, cheating and stealing ways Once satan gets you to doubt, he has you doubting God. These are some of the tricks, satan uses.

[ggamble]

Friend,

Here is a study I did the other day, that might help you, also
The Lord woke me up to bring this to ya.

For Him, God bless
ggamble

Today's Proverb:
Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct thy paths.

Proverbs 3:5,6 / KJV

_______________________Gam’sCommentary________________________________

This is a verse that has so much power packed in it’s 27 words. Trust, this what the Lord uses to build our faith. Then the foundation of our belief, with all thine heart. Jesus wants us to endure and stand firm and believe with all of our heart in faith, in all that is in His Word. Then there is a clue, or secret to fighting the spiritual battle we war against our flesh in everything the eyes of our heart may muster up in thoughts.

Gal 5:16 - 17 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.   

Lean not on unto thine own understandings, praise Jesus, this is the Word the Spirit gives me and addresses me to crucify my flesh, to cast that thought down and out in the name of Jesus. The battle is for our mind to take our focus of Christ, and God’s will for us. Our natural mind wants to go it alone and do things in the carnal way of self thinking. In all thy ways, deny ourselves from going into the carnal way of thinking, surrendering, acknowledging Him. Allegiance, to Jesus comes with this act of obedience, renewing our minds. Then out comes the Sword of the Spirit, the Word of God, as Jesus did in desert. The use of the scripture and slaying that captive thought and bringing it into obedience to Christ. Renewing the mind to the mind of Christ, Holy sanctification. With these acts of obedience, it empowers the Holy Spirit, and He shall direct thy path.

Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him:

Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath He reconciled.

Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of Him that created Him:

As Joyce Meyers says, "Make our mind, mind our new reborn mind, and that’s what renewing the mind is all about.. Also in this piece of the Word we find our alertness as written in Ephesians "Armor of God".

Eph 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching there unto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

Eph 6:18 Pray in the Spirit in every situation. Use every kind of prayer and request there is. For the same reason be alert. Use every kind of effort and make every kind of request for all of God's people.

If our thoughts are in the mode of dwelling, or trying to figure out something that should be given to the Lord, there is the clue, the alert buzzer goes off, then there we go into praying in all prayer, the battle rages on, and we fight the good fight. We find the several marks of discipleship here. Being teachable, using our authority, allegiance, fruit, {it produces fruits of the Spirit in us} the evidence of our love for Him, {through obedience}. Then the work of the Spirit for what it does in our witness to being His.

There are other scriptures that weave together from this verse to it’s wisdom: : 2 Corin. 10:3 - 5 / Romans 12:2 / 1 Corin. 2:16 / Is 26:3

All it’s His voice we are hearing when this one is manifested in our thoughts by the prompting of the Holy Spirit.

Isa 30:21 And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left.


Coming to the likeness of Him, this produces a victory to victory walk, glory upon glory. Love in the natural is very hard to commit to fully at rest in trust, but not with Jesus, if we only believe Him and His Word. Then in Heaven, image Jesus saying "Well, done good and faithful servant".

-----------------------------Only Always for Christ Jesus our Blessed Hope--------------

Pray on the Armor of God,  in Ephesians 6:10-20, read it right out in prayer all of it and use it to fight the good fight, I do not start my day without the armor, I pray it on in Faith, and out of obedience, because he put it there for a reason. Our only defense is the  Sword of the Spirit!

May God bless thee and keep thee
Only Always for Jesus
in the love of a brother
ggamble

[Shammu]

AMEN ggamble!! The Lords Word, truly awsome!

[Supercryptid]

Doubt in yourself, doubt in the Lord's promises, doubt in the word of God, and now doubt in your own Salvation.

I can't recall ever saying that I doubted God Himself, or doubting what He says in His Word. The reason I made this thread is so that I can have the apparent contradiction between the verses resolved (I have faith that they do not actually contradict, but I want to understand how they fit together).

And yes, I do tend to post issues on here that I'm struggling with.

[ggamble]

He says that Jesus has to accept us before we are saved. Now I have been drawn by the Spirit, I did go to the alter, and I did confess my sins and ask for forgiveness. Even after all of this, how do I know that Jesus has accepted me? After I left church that day, it still felt like something was wrong. I don't know what exactly. Was it because Jesus didn't accept me? I don't feel the peace that I have heard others speak of. I sometimes feel like I'm going crazy because I constantly wonder whether I have been thinking a particular bad thought long enough for it to be considered a sin. I end up asking for forgiveness for everything 24/7. It's very stressful.
[/quote]

Greetings Super,

From what I sent ya,  and what your read there, is why I gave ya what i could brother, from that part of your post, some very deep perplexed things seem to be going on with you spiritually, I've been there "going crazy" struggle, this is how you fight it, it was all for you from Him, done in love for a brother, no offense, just if you want victory, get vocal with the enemy and renew your mind with Christ.

in the love of a brother
Only Always for Jesus, God bless you friend
ggamble


Something from Oswald Chambers for today from my devotions, made me think about some of your questions:


THE TIME OF RELAPSE
 
"Will ye also go away?" John 6:67

A penetrating question. Our Lord's words come home most when He talks in the most simple way. We know Who Jesus is, but in spite of that He says - "Will ye also go away?" We have to maintain a venturing attitude toward Him all the time.

"From that time many of His disciples went back, and walked no more with Him." They went back from walking with Jesus, not into sin, but they relapsed. Many to-day are spending and being spent in work for Jesus Christ, but they do not walk with Him. The one thing God keeps us to steadily is that we may be one with Jesus Christ. After sanctification the discipline of our spiritual life is along this line. If God gives a clear and emphatic realization to your soul of what He wants, do not try to keep yourself in that relationship by any particular method, but live a natural life of absolute dependence on Jesus Christ. Never try to live the life with God on any other line than God's line, and that line is absolute devotion to Him. The certainty that I do not know - that is the secret of going with Jesus.

Peter only saw in Jesus Someone to minister salvation to him and to the world. Our Lord wants us to be yoke-fellows with Him.

v. 70. Jesus answers the great lack in Peter. We cannot answer for others.
 

[nChrist]

AMEN! to some great posts and an interesting thread.

Supercryptid,

I would first suggest that you never isolate a Scripture and take it out of context. This causes a lot of trouble for folks trying to study the Bible.

I'm going to give you some ideas for study that I hope will help you.

1 - If you find a portion of Scripture that looks like it contradicts another portion of Scripture, go back and resolve it. Read the context of the Scripture, even an entire Book of the Bible, and do the same with the other portion of Scripture. You must understand the speaker, the audience, the purpose, and the time as a minimum.

2 - Many people confuse instructions for Christian living and Christian testimony before men with Salvation. It's easy to read certain portions of Scripture and think that the requirements for Salvation are being discussed. You will even find some portions of Scripture where there appears to be contradictions just several verses apart, both written by the same person and to the same people. You go back to determine the purpose and usually find the answer pretty quickly. It's many times a good practice to read the first Chapter in a Bible Study to do just this - determine the purpose.

3 - Was the time period before or after the Cross? This is a big one that causes all kinds of problems, and it is closely associated with the difference between Law and Grace.

4 - Good works have never been required for Salvation, but portions of the Bible can be confused to indicate this. Christians will receive rewards for good works if they are done according to the Bible. NOW, mix this up with a Christian testimony before men. In the absence of good works, men might not even know the person is a Christian. Listen to this carefully - does our Salvation depend on the thoughts of men or the Promises of God? Christians do go up and down with their zeal and attitude to please God, but that doesn't mean that they aren't saved. Some of the pastors of the Bible basically said "Show everyone proof of your Salvation - don't just talk it - DO IT!" Well, what the pastor asked those Christians to do is not a requirement for Salvation, but it is good and reasonable from a heart of appreciation for what JESUS did for us on the Cross. NOW, let's add some more to think about here. If you do good works as a duty or some sort of payment to God, as opposed to a heart of Christian love, those works will be burned up. The same is true of doing good works for recognition, status in the community, pride, and every reason other than loving God. If you tithe ONLY because you think that you have to, God is not pleased. The same would be true if you gave everything because you thought that you had to. The only offering that God appreciates is one given from a cheerful heart in the Love of the LORD. If you get confused and get any of this wrong, it has nothing to do with Salvation. It pertains to your testimony before men, your fullness of joy in JESUS, and rewards in Heaven.

I hope that I gave you enough examples to show how easy it is to see apparent contradictions that aren't there. The most miserable Christians I know believe that they must be perfect and without sin to earn their Salvation. This is not possible, and they live from day to day with NO assurance of Salvation. NO man has ever been able to keep the Law, and that's one of the primary reasons why JESUS died on the Cross for us. HE was the PERFECT SACRIFICE and HE finished the work that no man could every do. JESUS CHRIST fulfilled the Law Perfectly because man can't.

We can have 100% assurance of Salvation because JESUS finished the work on the Cross, not because we are good enough, perfect enough, or righteous enough. Men don't have righteousness! Men must yield to the Righteousness of JESUS Christ and be seen in and through CHRIST to have any righteousness. This is a hard concept to understand. Let me give you a simple example that might explain it. JESUS took some of HIS Righteousness and put it in the bank in my account as a GIFT! That's the only righteousness I will ever have.

NOW, here's the GOOD NEWS! We are promised eternal life with JESUS in Heaven the moment we accept JESUS CHRIST as Lord and Saviour over our lives. RIGHT THEN, the Holy Spirit of God comes to live in our Hearts and SEALS our hearts as a pledge of His Promises. The SEAL of the Holy Spirit is also proof of a purchased possession. JESUS bought us with His Blood, and we belong to Him forever. Again, I repeat, RIGHT THEN we are the children of God forever, and no power can pluck us from HIS HANDS. It sure does make me happy to know that I'm a purchased possession of GOD!

Thanks be unto GOD for HIS unspeakable GIFT!, JESUS CHRIST, our Lord and Saviour forever!

Love in Christ,
Tom

Psalms 107:8-9 NASB  Let them give thanks to the LORD for His lovingkindness, And for His wonders to the sons of men!  For He has satisfied the thirsty soul, And the hungry soul He has filled with what is good.

[BlessedX2]

Hi, I just wanted to say that I believe the drawing happens first... I think that if God does not draw us to himself then we would never  believe in Jesus!  If you have come to Jesus for salvation the God has drawen you!  Maybe I'm out of line here but I don't believe that a truely repentent person is ever turned away from God!  He did not die and now says no to people who come to Him, it's His will that all come to Him  and be saved.   Your job now is to believe!  It's a job because like you said, you cannot always feel it.  You just need to believe, and to believe you must hear the word, so read your bible and keep prayinng and seeking and God will bless you for it.

[Soldier4Christ]

Hi, I just wanted to say that I believe the drawing happens first... I think that if God does not draw us to himself then we would never  believe in Jesus!  If you have come to Jesus for salvation the God has drawen you!  Maybe I'm out of line here but I don't believe that a truely repentent person is ever turned away from God!  He did not die and now says no to people who come to Him, it's His will that all come to Him  and be saved.   Your job now is to believe!  It's a job because like you said, you cannot always feel it.  You just need to believe, and to believe you must hear the word, so read your bible and keep prayinng and seeking and God will bless you for it.

You are not out of line, BlessedX2, you are on the mark. If a person has come to Christ then they were drawn to Him.

Salvation is not always a "feeling". To many people place a high value on feelings. We, being humans and in the flesh, will have feelings that are in opposition. The devil works on this human nature to place doubts in our minds. As has been said before in this thread we must reject the devil and his tricks and keep our minds and heart on Jesus.


We are told that God would have all men saved, He will not reject anyone that is truly repentant and believes on Him.

[ggamble]

Amen PR,

The evidence is a changed life, with Him. Seeking Him!  He makes all things new.
Matthew 6:33  But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and His righteousness; and all of these things shall be added unto you.  {KJV}

It's God that gives us the faith to believe, weather it be a musturd seed of it!

Only Always for Jesus
ggamble

[2nd Timothy]

Wow what a thread!!!!


Supercryptid said:

These verses seem to suggest that a person cannot be saved simply by believing in Jesus. It offers the condition that a person must be drawn by God in order to achieve salvation.

What can we make of this? Is it simply a belief in Jesus that saves, or is it required that we are drawn by God first, then we can be saved through this belief?

Now I don't mean to expose my preacher's business in a bad light, but he did tell us (the church) a story that is relevant to this issue. He said that before he was truly saved, he came to Jesus and asked for salvation. According to him, Jesus said no! Apparently, he was not yet drawn by God, or the Holy Spirit. Why would Jesus have rejected him? It might have been because he wasn't willing to completely surrender to God, but I can't remember the real reason (if he even told it to us).

He says that Jesus has to accept us before we are saved. Now I have been drawn by the Spirit, I did go to the alter, and I did confess my sins and ask for forgiveness. Even after all of this, how do I know that Jesus has accepted me? After I left church that day, it still felt like something was wrong. I don't know what exactly. Was it because Jesus didn't accept me? I don't feel the peace that I have heard others speak of. I sometimes feel like I'm going crazy because I constantly wonder whether I have been thinking a particular bad thought long enough for it to be considered a sin. I end up asking for forgiveness for everything 24/7. It's very stressful.

First off, as you said, since you went to the alter to confess your sins, you were drawn by God.   This is the key to it all really.


There are people who believe of Christ, and there are people who believe in AND receive Christ.   The whole purpose of Christs death (appart from attoning for our sins) was to draw ALL men by demonstrating the greatness of His love towards us.

2Pe 3:9  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Joh 15:13  Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.


2Co 5:15  And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.


So if He is not willing that any should perish, He draws everyone, but not everyone responds.   Sure, many people believe there was a man named Jesus and call themselves Christians, but have yet to truely receive and believe what He did for them.    To hear of His truth and His death for you and me, tugs at our heart strings.   If thats not the Fathers drawing, I don't know what is.   AND if it tugs at our heart strings, then we are believing that Christ indeed died on our behalf when we fully deserved death ourselves.    This either moves us to accept this truth and receive His forgiveness and sacrifice for us, or dismiss that truth as non-truth.


In response to if Jesus rejects anyone I offer this verse.

Rom 10:13  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.


No mention of preconditions, as no one would really have a need to call upon Him unless they had been drawn.

The reason I made this thread is so that I can have the apparent contradiction between the verses resolved (I have faith that they do not actually contradict, but I want to understand how they fit together).

If you confessed your sins to Christ and asked His forgiveness, then you ARE saved friend!    Romans 10:13 is concrete!!!    You would not have called upon Christ had the Father not drawn you to Him through truth....and because you responded to that truth, you were received by the Host of Heaven with open Arms!!!!!!!!!       


Called by truth, reponded in truth, and saved by truth.   


Christ died for us while we were yet in our sins.   If this is not a willingness to accept anyone who would receive Him, I'm not sure what is.   There is simply no scripture to indicate He would reject anyone calling upon Him.   And no one would have a reason to call upon Him unless they believed they were sinners in need of salvation - Drawn by the Father, through the Gospel of Christ!


Edit:  I know I sorta repeated myself there a few times, but I hope it makes sense.

Grace and Peace!

[airIam2worship]

Hi, I just wanted to say that I believe the drawing happens first... I think that if God does not draw us to himself then we would never  believe in Jesus!  If you have come to Jesus for salvation the God has drawen you!  Maybe I'm out of line here but I don't believe that a truely repentent person is ever turned away from God!  He did not die and now says no to people who come to Him, it's His will that all come to Him  and be saved.   Your job now is to believe!  It's a job because like you said, you cannot always feel it.  You just need to believe, and to believe you must hear the word, so read your bible and keep prayinng and seeking and God will bless you for it.

Many unbelievers go to church because they were either invited by a friend, or family member, or because they are so down that they come to realize that they need someone stronger than themselves, someone they can hand their problem over to and get some answers and help. While the unbeliever is sitting in church God may be talking to him, the pastor may be preaching something that the unbelievermight even think 'he must be talking about me' then when it is time for the altar call the unbeliever may sit there and either be too ashamed or afraid, or unsure and will not answer the altar call, some may feel a strong tugging in their inner man, and cannot resist it that is the Holy Spirit wooing that person to answer the call. That might be what supercrytid was reffering to. Some unbelievers can sit through a sermon and know that they know that they are being spoken to by God and yet they walk away from Him.
See salvation is not a feeling it is having faith in what Jesus did for us, but we have to answer that call when we feel that tugging in our heart.

[Supercryptid]

Even before that particular day of being drawn to the alter, I thought that I was, in fact, a Christian. Even before the drawing I had confessed my sins, and I believe I felt the Holy Ghost from time to time. Now if I wasn't saved before I went to the alter, why would I have felt the Holy Ghost (I'm pretty sure I did)? If I was saved before I went to the alter, then why would God have drawn me at all? When I went to the alter, my preacher said that he believed that I was already saved, and that the Devil may try to confuse me into thinking I'm not saved. But if I was saved, why did God draw me? Perhaps he drew me just so the preacher could reassure me? That is the one and only time I can ever remember feeling that drawing. It was something powerful. Also, what would have caused me to feel uneasy after I had just went to the altar? Was it Satan?