Terrible Question.

[Symphony]

In the Time-Life series on WWII published in the early 1980s, there are photographs at the beginning of one volume showing the Nazi occupation of Denmark, which happened rapidly(overnight, I believe).  One full page photo shows a German soldier, on a city street, accosting and interrogating a young woman in a leapard skin coat clutching her purse, with a scared ten year old boy looking up at the soldier,  standing under her arm.  They both are obviously in shock, a very upsetting interruption to what probably was a routine walk to the store.

An accompanying caption mentions one newspaper publisher who dared to publish contradictory material about the Nazis; it says that when they returned him to the village he refused to speak about what they had done to him.

The Nazis started out originally as "brown shirts", years before--no weapons.  Just uniforms, social clubs, indoctrination, camps, outings--even good works.

When we as Christians, in the public market places, see two men(or two women) holding hands, or kissing, etc., or an otherwise obvious, open display, should we challenge??

Should we ask them first if they are homosexuals, and then tell them what they are doing is wrong?

Or, as perhaps there in Denmark,  should we wait until they are everywhere, and they have control of everything--the courts, the schools, the marketplace?

When there is an open display in the local grocery, for instance, do we confront??

Is the grocer then liable to which??  Will you be allowed in the store again, if you are viewed as causing an altercation??

Will the grocer ask you to leave?  Or will he ask the gays to leave??

If it's a small town, will you be allowed in other grocery stores, if word gets around?  Will you be able to eat?

If you don't challenge, will you be "complicit", allowing then later on the exact same scenario to occur as happened there in Denmark some 65 years ago?  If you wait until they are everywhere, will you dare to speak out then?  Would that woman have dared to say anything?--the soldier is the one with the guns, the authority, the power.

Do you wait until they have the power??

[Mr. 5020]

Do you wait until they have the power??

Obviously not.  To do so would be retarded (ie. protesting the war in Iraq).  We are told to preach the gospel "in season and out of season."  Now is definitely out of season.  Nobody wants to hear it, as someone told ebia in the sodomite high school debate.

[Elijah]

Opposition to homosexuality is being aimed at behavior; not people. It is the duty of individual Christians and Christ's Church to bring the gospel to homosexuals and to speak out against the acceptance of sin in the culture. Efforts to convince society that homosexual behavior is normal should be opposed for fear of the judgment of God on individual homosexuals, society at large, and on the nation.

If you disagree move to this forum

http://www.gaychristian.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi

[missyann250]

Where is anybody's part in the solution of sin?
Prayer is the first step.
Who is talking to one who is lost, and the sins are manifested in a way where God may recieve glory from His almighty power?
Believers are the body of Christ, we all have opportunities.  Writing is one of them.  Witnessing in our walk is another.
I believe Symphony might be saying in a strong way that there is a sin that has manifested to a degree that there is a mournful situation.  And that some of us might have an opportunity to make a difference.  But there are so many mainifestations, and believe it or not there are many of His children, and an enormous amount of power in God.
I say pray that God gives us spiritual eyes and ears to know his will in our lives so that we can be open and ready for His use, for His glory, always walking in love.  Then Jesus can work through us.  Praise His Name Once Again!  
In Christ, missyann250

1 John 1:5  
  And this is the message which we have heard from him, and announce to you, That God is LIght, and with him there is no darkness.  

[lizmom]

Ok, people. If I am in the store, and I hear someone using shocking profanity, I will complain. After all, a child could be within earshot. If I see homosexuals, how in the world will I know they are homos? After all, they are just standing there minding their own business, right? Wrong. They, like the user of loud profanity, are making a public show of sin by kissing, holding hands, etc. User of profanity, keep your noise to yourself! Homosexual, keep your noise to yourself! My children and I don't want to see it! Do not idly sit by, Christian brothers and sisters, and make a mockery of God by calling sin good.
On the other hand, I would hesitate to walk up to perfect strangers and point out their sins. It's one thing to see inappropriate behavior and make a complaint. It's another thing to challenge everyone you meet. "Hey, you over there, I think you are an adulterer! Hey you, you have sinned by not observing the sabbath!" Rather, let us reach out to every sinner (every human), by offering Jesus for the covering of all sin. After all, homos are not only sinning by their sexual acts. They were born into sin and have just as much guilt, in the very essence of their humanity, as we did before Jesus took our guilt on Himself. Praise God.

[Reba]

Not too long ago homosexuality was considered criminal and a  psycho illness.  Acceptance of sin no matter how nice we want to be is still acceptance of sin. Is acceptance of leaven a good idea? What is the moral responsibility of a  Christian.  The 'good Samaritan' aided a victim of sin. I doubt the 'good Samaritan would have ,if found, given the same aid to the one who beat and robbed the poor man in the ditch.

This slow invasion is how abortion became rooted in our lives.

[missyann250]

Actually, any person with Jesus in their life abhors sin, although full of sin themselves because we are filled with the Spirit.  
Yet, it is up to God to judge at the judgment seat of Christ.  Yes, I know we are to discern.  But, we are to carry a balance that is somber, following the opportunity when presented to use all faculties in which God has prepared, or built us up.  
Example:
I knew two lesbians.  They had had every chance to see the truth, and did, but one chose one way, the other chose the other way.  

[Saved_4ever]

Here gay christains talk about the abuse and persecution they have suffered.

This is ridiculous as there is no such thing as a gay christian.  Next you'll tell me about all the poor offended adulters, and fornicators and how it's just so mean and wrong that they are getting a hard time from the Pastor and fellow members.  I feel so bad for them.     I feel bad that they don't get it, much like the man who told me he has a right to be angry at God because he has cancer of the liver.  All the while telling me this while being drunk and having beer bottles on the front law.  Perhaps his cancer was self induced.  Likewise many people living in sin should ask themselves that same question.

[Symphony]

Saved4:  This is ridiculous as there is no such thing as a gay christian.  Next you'll tell me about all the poor offended adulters, and fornicators and how it's just so mean and wrong that they are getting a hard time from the Pastor and fellow members.  I feel so bad for them.    I feel bad that they don't get it, much like the man who told me he has a right to be angry at God because he has cancer of the liver.  All the while telling me this while being drunk and having beer bottles on the front law.  Perhaps his cancer was self induced.  Likewise many people living in sin should ask themselves that same question.


Nicely said, Saved.  Thanks.

[lizmom]

There is such a thing as a homosexual Christian. That is, the one who has just been saved and perhaps still hasn't learned that homosexuality is a sin. We are being sanctified in God's good time. God reveals sin in my life on a regular basis.
However, so many homos talk of God and don't know him at all. If they knew him, they would turn away from the obvious sin in their lives and begin to grow in Christ, not parade around worse than ever. I think you can tell the dif between one who sins and is sorry, and one who sins and is glad.

[Mr. 5020]

Many people here seem to assume that being gay is the worst thing that can happen in the world. There is a cold intolerance here that chills me. Where is the love that we should be known by?

I think very few people here would say that fagdom is the worst thing in the world.  However, due to its increasing prevalence in America, it does need to be addressed.  As far as the love goes, read my most recent post in the gay school thread.

[Symphony]

Hmm, well.  Let's see.

lizmom makes a good point.  In transition, one might be a "gay" Christian, I suppose...that is, coming to Jesus and out of his/her sin...

I'm not sure that gaydom may not in fact be the worst thing, or, at least leading to the worst thing:

  1)  It is the first time in human history that a traditionally verboten human practice has been not only reversed from virtually unanimous condemnation to what now is beginning to look like wholesale endorsement, but has actually been and is being legislated(not even the infamous Greeks and Romans managed that one, on this count).

  2)  The phrase  "...when you see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place, as spoken of by the prophet Daniel...", by Jesus, in his Olivette Discourse, implies hauntingly of exactly what homosexually is on two counts:

     A)  Homosexually is called "an abomination" in the OT, and Jesus uses that term here, and

     B)  Homosexuality leads to desolation:  It cannot produce children--the practical or physical, literal outcome of loving gotcha146.  But on the contrary, it produces nothing or, that is, desolation(i.e., no human race...).  Passing for this loving relationship, homosexuality fulfills Jesus' greatest indictment of Satan, "...you are a liar and the Father of lies...", b/c it feigns geniune "love", instead only offering you desolation(barrenness, no children) as its "reward"--emptyness--aloneness--the more you practice it, the more desolate you become.

  3)  Upon "...the wings of abomination..." of Daniel 9:27 possibly alludes to why it might in fact be, or lead to, the "worst thing that can happen in the world", as you call it, Wanderer--that is, if you agree that even as we speak homosexuality has been increasingly endorsed or at least "tolerated" by all major bureaucracies in western civilization today--that is, government(legislatures, executives, esp. the courts, as with the Sup. Court in June here in U.S.), commerce(Wal-mart, the world's largest employer with over 1 million employees worldwide, announced its extention of equal employment protection to gays, also in June), and the church(the Episcopal in world news most recently, and no-dbout others, with the Catholic beginning to show gradual resignation, despite the pope's renunciation of the practice last week).  You have schools gradually caving, law schools, public schools, colleges, and even law enforcement(Holland specifically recruits gay police officers...).  Most of the Fortune 500 companies now extend employment protection, and many of those who support, for instance, the Boy Scouts, are beginning to threaten the latter to accept gay scout masters--or else.

All is to say, Wanderer, that, at least within the various church heirarchies,  very likely it is paving the path to the ultimate "justification" that Jesus himself was homosexual.  The reason we know this is blasphemy is for the same reason you know something is definitely wrong when Philadelphia is called "The City of Brotherly Love", and the popular 1930s columnist Will Rogers said, "I never met a man I didn't like", and someone tells you then that Philadelphia was intended to be homosexual and Will Rogers meant that he was in love with men.  Similar arguments are being proffered about the love between Jonathan and David, as referred to in 1 Samuel.

But increasingly, on that last account, people will believe that--or believe that that is what was really meant, there.  This is what is meant by the "revisionist historians" we are hearing about.  They are revising earlier intentions to completely different ones today--literally blasphemous ones, in Will Rogers' and Philadephia's and David's case--that isn't what they meant at all, homosexual "love"!!   But increasingly, they will have us to believe that and, apparently, many or most people will do exactly that(to "wander after the Beast", as it says there in Revelation).
 
As I recall in NT scripture, there is one sin that apparently measures up to "blasphemy".  My guess is this is probably it, and b/c it uses the genuine article--that is, Jesus Christ--to promise what it can never deliver--that is, offspring and therefore ultimately, the "bride", or "Church", of Jesus Christ--or, in effect, something "counterfeit".  Homosexuality, effectively, is a counterfeit of the "Bride of Christ"--and we know it is counterfiet because it promises "love" but doesn't and can't deliver on the promise--that is, the "goods" or, the "children" or, specifically, His Church--or, at least, individuals who one day could at least have a chance at becoming members of His Church(by the blood of the Lamb).

Homosexuality is counterfeit b/c it can't deliver, or produce what as "love" it so beseechingly promises.  It leads to "desolation".  And that is what Satan wants.  He wants you dead.  He wants me dead.  He wants us all dead--to join him in his destiny, where there he will undoubedly not care the least about you--or if he could or would it would only be to torture or just otherwise molest you--as if the torture or molestation of Hell itself weren't already enough.  It's just a lie, but it is looking like the lie--or the beginning of--the "lie of all lies".

   

[Saved_4ever]

There is no such thing as a gay christian? Just as there is no such thing as an angry christian, or a christian who lies, or who cheats on their tax return, or who has lustful thoughts, or is disrespctful to their parents?

Many people here seem to assume that being gay is the worst thing that can happen in the world. There is a cold intolerance here that chills me. Where is the love that we should be known by?

To "be gay" ie: practicing and claim Christ is a possibilty but not a truth.  You sound like the type of wishy washy, lovey dovey kind of person that like the hippies, just wants everyone to love each other.  Unfortunately this is not the case if you follow scripture.  If we look at 1 Corinthians 5:1-7 we see that a person living in sin is to be removed from the church (so much for that lovey universal church) until they areright with God again.  In fact Paul rebukes the members for allowing this person to remain among them and 1Co 5:5
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

We also see in the next verse the problem with wanderer's thought: 1Co 5:6Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

I'd say I've never seen so much public attention to the sodomite issue.  There was even a "gay community day" at the new stadium here in Philadelphia.  This is a problem that is running rampant.  It's not the only problem or sin shoved in our face but still a lot of it is still thought as wrong by even the unsaved.  Pornography for instance is still thought of as wrong amongst the people yet it is the most profitable industry around.  As you can see it's not being claimed as "ok" though.  

Do you see the difference yet?  There are an ever growing amount "openly gay" TV shows now.  It started with "Will and Grace" (I still wonder about the main charaters names and their deeper meaning) and now we have "Queer eye for the straight guy", and "Boy meets Boy".  These last two blantently open homosexual shows started out on bravo and now the first is now shown on NBC and the members recently appeared on the Tonight Show.  

This issue is most assuredly being shoved in our faces and played off as an acceptable life style to which it is not.  This whole garbage argument about the "small" amount of mention in the bible is ludicrous.  It says little about cheating on your wife and lying and such.  Does this mean we should ignore these things?  I think not.  Homosexuality is so rampant we even have a denomination making a sodomite a church leader.  Talk about losing ones first love.  

I'm afraid that this abonination has gotten its claws entrenched amonst us to the point it will not be removed.  I will not be the least bit surprised if judgement were to fall on this nation very soon.

Symphony's point about the Nazi's is one of total control over us at which point we will no longer have a say at all and I see it coming.  I do believe his intentions were good but alas I must admit his transitions from subject to subject need a little work.  As far as the store situation I thought he meant to maybe bring to light their sin and present the gospel but I don't believe the behaviour I have seen before is becoming of anyone.  I don't think highly and wouldn't want two heterosexuals all over each other in public either.

Though I know many will not like this I don't see two open homosexual people in public (all over each other) being any more acceptable than a drug user "using" in public.  Both happen, I have seen it.

[Saved_4ever]

lizmom makes a good point.  In transition, one might be a "gay" Christian, I suppose...that is, coming to Jesus and out of his/her sin...

No actually it's a horrible point as I don't see anyone running around claiming to be a fornicating Christian or lying Christian.  Should we start little groups for each particular sin one has?  Last I checked there is a support group for sinners, it's called Church where saved sinners hear God's word and give honor and glory to him.  I don't talk about my past sins and harp on them.  If the LORD has cast them from out of his sight so should we.  Cast them away and bring glory to the LORD.  Tacking on a sinful title does nothing to glorify God but bring attention to a sin.  This isn't AA and the twelve steps program it's salvation of the soul and FREEING from sin.

Let's keep that in mind.

[lizmom]

lizmom makes a good point.  In transition, one might be a "gay" Christian, I suppose...that is, coming to Jesus and out of his/her sin...

No actually it's a horrible point as I don't see anyone running around claiming to be a fornicating Christian or lying Christian.  Should we start little groups for each particular sin one has?  Last I checked there is a support group for sinners, it's called Church where saved sinners hear God's word and give honor and glory to him.  I don't talk about my past sins and harp on them.  If the LORD has cast them from out of his sight so should we.  Cast them away and bring glory to the LORD.  Tacking on a sinful title does nothing to glorify God but bring attention to a sin.  This isn't AA and the twelve steps program it's salvation of the soul and FREEING from sin.

Let's keep that in mind.

Hey Saved 4ever, you really made me stand up and realize where my comment was wishy-washy. You are so right on.