"Krystallnacht, 1938"--American Dictatorship

[Symphony]

ebia:
You don't turn someone off drugs, or solve alcoholism, by shouting at them that they are evil.  You do it by understanding where they are at, why they are doing what they are doing, gaining their trust, etc, etc.  Harrasment and verbal abuse is highly unlikely to solve the problem

Symph:  Well, for drugs or alcoholism, the easiest way to remedy that would be to cut off the supply.  Easier said than done, though, with both of those supply lines being so money-related.  There's good money in alcohol; and there's BIG money in drugs.

But with promiscuity, where the offense involves another person, you can't very well rid the world, or at least your world, of other people!!

So, you have to otherwise curb that appetite.  Now let's see, how does one do that?

Hmmm.  (scratches wooden head...)

[Mr. 5020]

However - and I think this is where our ideas may begin to diverge - I do not believe that the text itself is the "word" of God.  Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour, Second Person of the Trinity is that Word, the Word made flesh.  Therefore any discussion of scripture must not only take the text itself seriously, but take Jesus Christ very seriously indeed as the one against whom all actions, ideas and interpretations must be measured.

I've heard this theory many times, and I've always wondered something when I've heard it.  Maybe I'll finally get an answer.  What do you know about the living Word outside of the written word?

[Symphony]

grebe: Lust and love, what's the difference? One makes it sound dirty. I'm just saying it doesn't feel dirty. If you love someone and you want to show them you love them, so you buy a present or cook a meal or give them a massage or hold them gently. When does it stop being good and start being bad? I can't tell.

symphony:  Well, for starters, if that someone is someone else's spouse--which nevertheless happens all the time precisely for that reason, grebe, because at no one stage of the game does it really "feel" wrong--esp. if the two are lusting after each other(lust--selfish about the other; love--caring about the other(including, if they are already promised to someone else)).

If it's the same sex, really for similar reasons as above--that is, "invisible" reasons--for the same reason you still stop at a stop sign though no one else is within sight--purely for "invisible" reasons(but that do nevertheless manifest themselves physically--such as a traffic ticket, or a bad accident, or with adultery a jealous spouse with shotgun in hand, etc. or, in the case of same sex promiscuity, std's(or there too a jealous expartner, etc.) or in the case where your same sex partner comes "pure" and with no strings attached, the mere fact it's forbidden(tho it doesn't take much to figure out why God forbids it, that is, homosexually, under the guise of "genuine love", as you imply it, still doesn't deliver what it promises--that is, the "fruits" of that genuine love--i.e., "children"(rug rats, crumb crunchers... )--but on the contrary, only delivers aloneness, nongrowth, addiction and, in the end, "desolation", the biblical identifier, at least it would certainly seem, of the antichrist himself(it would only make sense that the antichrist would fit that role, being "anti", the opposite of everything good, it only makes sense that the admonition by God to "...go forth and mulitiply" in Satan's dictionary would mean let's make the world and universe completely desolate--which is what homosexuality does--it's lustful nature leads one down the road of non-multiplication, non-fruit, and lusting after one another for one's own sake--ingrown, intro-verted, narcissistic).

[Symphony]

Yes, Mr. 5020, I've wondered about that too, tbs's statement that, "I do not believe that the text itself is the "word" of God."

Well, that makes it all very convenient.

"Yes, officer, I saw that stop sign back there.  But I don't  think it's vested with any real authority.  So I don't  pay any attention to stop signs."

(Let's see if blackeyedpeas here takes a fancy to this one--hehe)

   

[Symphony]

tbs: The following is probably a waste of time, but I shall respond in detail to Symphony's post before leaving you to ponder whether you are all as correct as you think you are.  


Are you sure of what you're trying to say?  Hmmm.   And, as far as being "correct", II Corinthains 3:4-:  "Such is the confidence that we have through Christ toward God.  Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God, who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not in a written code but in the Spirit; for the written code kills, but the Spirit gives life."  

Are you a minister, tbs?  So there you are, minister "...of a new covenant, not in a written code..."  So that's what you are--"minister of a new covenant...".

On my earlier lumping of gay with the others, it's only because that's how it's done there in Leviticus--child sacrifice, adultery, gay, bestiality.  My guess is they're all lumped simply b/c they're all strategic, or, that is, critical, to human existence.  They are critical admonitions, or prohibitions, because you can't insure the integrity of human life as we know it if that human life loses it's design or direction(every "invention" of man's has it's "design", and likewise God's...); I believe that Leviticus passage in the KJ concludes with the words, "...it is confusion".  Mine in RSV uses, "...it is perversion."

You can't have human life cohabiting arbitrarily, and that's all three of those prohibitions are about--with another's wife, with a beast, or male upon male(ditto female).  It's "confusing"(especially, to children--thus Jesus' admonition, that causing one of them to sin it would be better for you to be weighted down and cast into the sea...).

Most who endorse the gay life equally endorse all or most of those others--free sex any way you want it("socialism"--being "social" with everyone or anything that moves--hehe).

As far as Nazism--you betcha.  It advanced only b/c no one said anything.  Early on, if the Jews and the Germans had jointly rushed them, there would have been no problem.  "Eternal vigilance..." goes the familiar refrain.  But many in the German populace generally were anti-semitic.

Same here.  Christian-dom is as complacent on this, homosexuality, the Trojan Horse, the "...wing of abomination.." of Daniel 9:27, as the German people and the Jews were about Nazisim.  They simply did nothing, or were silent.  Many in the general populace can't understand why the Christians are such "homophobes"--thus, you have fewer and fewer Christians willing to take that risk.  Same with the Germans. Those few who did speak out or assist the Jews--ministers, a few Catholic priests, evangelicals, a few students, families, individuals--were violently made an horrific example--but only because they were so few, and an easy target.

Did they see it coming?  Apparently not--until Crystal Night, when the next morning it's reported that some said there was something different in the air, despite the Bundestag's public reassurance that there was no connection to the coincidental, multiple attacks all over Germany the night before.

Parallel that gradual but sustained trend for some six years up to Krystallnacht, Nov of 1938, to the current federal Hate Crimes legislation, among the other events this year already mentioned, that is being seriiously bandied about now, extending protection to homosexuals--meaning, you can't publicly renounce it.  Notice I said "publicly", which implies that you'll then be watched privately(that's the point--the Nazis had neighborhood volunteers who regularly reported on their own neighbors, throughout Germany--the jovial gardner down the street was in boots and brownshirt come the weekend).

[nChrist]

Oklahoma Howdy to Symphony,

I think your post is on the mark, with one exception. "Phobia" is usually connected with an unreasonable fear. Thus, "Homophobes" is not an accurate description. I am not afraid of them at all, but I do condemn their acts, am disgusted with their lifestyle, and I refuse to accept or respect their lifestyle. I think that most Christians would fit into the same category, so maybe we need a word other than "Homophobe". How about "HOMODISGUSTUS".

In Christ,
Tom

[Symphony]

bep:  "HOMODISGUSTUS".  


grebe:"...love isn't about worrying about the consequences,"


symph:  OUCH!!  *sigh*  Love IS worrying about the consequences.  That's precisely why the guy doesn't have sex with the girl before the protection or insurance of marriage--because it likely will produce a child(i.e., "consequences"...  ).

Love isn't worrying about the consequences!   Oh, if only that were true, grebe, if only that were true.  Hehe.

We could all have one big happy party, that's for sure!!  Tally ho!  

     

[nChrist]

Why is some love good and some love bad?

Grebe,

I assume you are talking about a relationship involving sex. I'll make it real simple. The only sexual relationship that is permitted and blessed by God is between a man and a woman WITHIN the bonds of marriage. Sexual relationships between a man and a woman OUTSIDE the bonds of marriage is fornication and a sin. Sexual relationships between a person and the spouse of another is adultery and a sin. Sexual relationships between people of the same sex or between a person and an animal are an ABOMINATION in the eyes of God and were death sentence offenses under the law. This sums up the teaching of the Bible on this subject. The teaching in the New Testament remained the same, with the exception that we are no longer commanded to stone to death those who commit an abomination.

If you are looking for acceptance of any relationship involving sex, other than between a man and a woman within the bonds of marriage, you won't find it in the Holy Bible. Further, you won't find acceptance or respect of these acts by God's children.

[Symphony]

Yep, grebe, bep has it about right.  I know you're dealing with the question of can something that feels so right be so wrong.
The 16 chpts of Romans tackles this--"Had it not been for the law, I wouldn't have known sin..." , or, that is, I wouldn't have known that something is sin, if the law hadn't told me it was.

But for Christians, that "law" is God's law.  And that's what we look to, 'though as bep points out, not with the same retribution as in the OT.  The NT, incl. Romans, is more, change your ways, come out of the sinful nature, believe on the name of Jesus Christ, confess His name with thy lips(Romans 10:9,10)--in short, "repent", and believe on His Name, and turn from the wicked paths.

More back to this thread's topic, that is, the violence that the gays will bring, as compared with the Nazis 70 years ago, just noticed the following was posted today, over at WND:

Church worker beaten for 'anti-gay' sermon?
Men assaulted janitor after pastor preached homosexuality sinful

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: August 20, 2003
1:00 a.m. Eastern

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=34178

This article mentions three separate cases:  

In Ohio, three men assault a church's janitor in apparent response to minister's rejection of homosexuality;

2) In London, an Anglican minister assaulted by two colleagues, on street, for his apparent rejection of homosexuality(in the Episcopal church)...

3)  In Texas, Aug. 5, Episcopal church vandlized and partially burned, for remaining "orthodox"...

[Symphony]

"You see its very confusing..."

grebe, that's exactly how the King James version terms it, in Leviticus 18:19-23.  It concludes with the words:  "...it is confusion."

Part of it today is a society largely gone wild with its own appearances.  No big surprise then that you have individuals increasingly enthralled with appearances of anybody, regardless of who or what they are.

This is the implication in Ezekiel 16:49:  "...this was the guilt of your sister Sodom:  she and her daughters had pride, surfeit of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy."

Largely, the confusion you are speaking of comes from prosperity.  Hardship tends to put things in perspective.

[Saved_4ever]

SYmphony, as far as I can see you are saying that same sex relationships between otherwise unattached people are wrong because they don't produce children. My parents' relationship isn't going to bear that kind of fruit any more, but i don't see them slipping into aloneness and desolation.

Anyway, love isn't about worrying about the consequences, it's about acting out of the feelings in your heart. I'm a better person when I love.

[colo=red]Psa 10:3  For the wicked boasteth of his heart's desire, and blesseth the covetous, whom the LORD abhorreth.

Jer 17:9  The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? [/color]

Love is not about acting out of the feelings of your heart.  You sound like you are obviously confusing lust and love something common for many a person.  Many feelings come from the heart and are not loving.  Hate comes from the heart as well and acting upon it would be anything but loving.

There is plenty in the bible about homosexuality you just don't want to see it.

How old are you?  You need to speak with some people if this is such an issue for you.  There are groups and things of people who were gay efore they were saved.  I don't know your lifes story or anything but I'm sure there is probably something in there that somehow has tipped you the wrong way.  From just the surface of what you are saying it sounds like you have some "attention" issues.  I have a feeling you find yourself in "love" a little too often and "true love" you have not found yet.  Why do you know so much about loving people (and I am harping on the pural thing).  

Deviant sex isn't any better regardless of a persons sexual "orientation".  Heterosexuals are ingaged in just as much as homosexuals really but we complain about them too, at least I do.  The one major difference and I brought this up before is that homosexuals think they deserve special treatment as if they were a species of people or something.  You won't get any special treatment because the LORD has condemned the act.  I'm also guessing you are female as well correct?

[Symphony]

Saved4:  "...I brought this up before is that homosexuals think they deserve special treatment as if they were a species of people or something.

Hehe, they ARE a species of people, Saved:

http://www.theinvaders.co.uk/  

And they look the same as you or I.

   

[Saved_4ever]

There are groups and things of people who were gay efore they were saved.  

They can probably teach you to hid it from yourself and others too.   At least for a few years.  By which time you can be "happily" married with kids.  So when when you finally have to admit that you're living a lie you've screwed up four people's lives, not just your own.

Whatever else - never try to pretend to yourself you are anything other than what you are.  Whatever that is.

Are you like the devils right hand woman or something?  Really you are vile person with the lies you spew.  You'd rather send someone to hell than have them see a glorious victory in Jesus.  That makes you quite vile.

Rom 1:21  Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22  Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23  And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24  Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25  Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 1:26  For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27  And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Rom 1:28  And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Rom 1:29  Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Rom 1:30  Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31  Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Rom 1:32  Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

May your mouth be shut and God true as always.  The LORD Rebuke thee!

[Symphony]

The original intent of this thread, that we are transitioning into an American Dictatorship(at least here in U.S.), and that this parallels what happened to Germany with the Nazis in the 1930s, has reached a next stage--that is, actual violence.

I am offering a continuance of that projection under a separate thread here, Part II.  It represents that stage where violence actually begins, against those who openly reject homosexuallity.

'Tho I won't frame it here yet, I'm project further also, later on, a Part III.  This will represent "beyond" just the initial violence--as with the brownshirts in 1930s Germany.  Part III will represent where persecution of the Jews or, in America's case, persecution of the Christians, will be actually legislated--that is, a matter of public law.

It isn't there yet.  But already a brief has been filed for repeal of the "don't ask, don't tell" policy of our military; also, there is Federal hate crimes legislation, not yet confirmed, extending protection to gays and lesbians.

When those things are confirmed, I see us then as moving in to Part III or, that is, in Germany, the "Final Solution", which was decided on in 1942(for death camps like Auschwitz, Treblinka, etc., four years after Crystal Night).

But for right now, just Part II or, that is, just the variable violence, and "ghetto-ization" of Christians who dare to say a word.

[Symphony]

Maybe just to get back on topic, Sean Hannity's talk radio program mentioned Judge Moore's stand on the Ten Commandments as a "pivotal" moment.

I heard last night one other radio commentator's reflection that the American public may just be getting tired of "all this
Christian stuff..."

I was thinking the Judge Moore thing could be pivotal in a way we hadn't thought--that is, if he is imprisoned, that could be seen as an approving precedent--for the gay movement(the topic of this thread here--that is, the beginning of the persecution of the Christians by the gay movement), and for the public generally as well, to begin to actually "silence" Christian "dissent".

I'm not looking for JUdge Moore to be imprisoned, but so far, his eight associates have overruled him, and the state's attorney general either.

If effect, the Judge Moore thing could backfire into actually a significant, major precedent for "silencing" Christian dissent in America--generally, not by just the gay agenda.

I think I'll post this under the Judge Moore's threads too.  This "new twist" is actually what I was pointing to under my "Part II, Krystallnacht 1938" thread, where the ghetto-ization of Christians becomes violent(current examples given or to be added there).  But more accurately, this would fall under "Part III, Krystallnacht...", which I haven't begun yet, where the violence is actually legislated, or legal.  Or, that is, where there would at least be legal imprisonment.

I know where I live my own "evangelization" could soon be seen as a "nuisance"--tolerated for a while but ultimately, finally silenced, perhaps even just by people generally--people who go to church, work, vacation, etc,--people who want things to continue "as they are" and have enough to contend with.