DISCUSSION FORUMS
MAIN MENU
Home
Help
Advanced Search
Recent Posts
Site Statistics
Who's Online
Forum Rules
Bible Resources
• Bible Study Aids
• Bible Devotionals
• Audio Sermons
Community
• ChristiansUnite Blogs
• Christian Forums
• Facebook Apps
Web Search
• Christian Family Sites
• Top Christian Sites
• Christian RSS Feeds
Family Life
• Christian Finance
• ChristiansUnite KIDS
Shop
• Christian Magazines
• Christian Book Store
Read
• Christian News
• Christian Columns
• Christian Song Lyrics
• Christian Mailing Lists
Connect
• Christian Singles
• Christian Classifieds
Graphics
• Free Christian Clipart
• Christian Wallpaper
Fun Stuff
• Clean Christian Jokes
• Bible Trivia Quiz
• Online Video Games
• Bible Crosswords
Webmasters
• Christian Guestbooks
• Banner Exchange
• Dynamic Content

Subscribe to our Free Newsletter.
Enter your email address:

ChristiansUnite
Forums
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
May 26, 2022, 08:34:50 PM

Login with username, password and session length
Search:     Advanced search
Our Lord Jesus Christ loves you.
284883 Posts in 27555 Topics by 3790 Members
Latest Member: Goodwin
* Home Help Search Login Register
+  ChristiansUnite Forums
|-+  Theology
| |-+  Prophecy - Current Events (Moderator: admin)
| | |-+  Proof of scripture!!!! Praise the Lord!!!
« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Proof of scripture!!!! Praise the Lord!!!  (Read 5000 times)
Wandering Saint
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 18


I'm a llama!


View Profile
« on: July 22, 2003, 10:35:42 PM »

Jesus fulfilled about 300 prophecies in the Bible. Peter Stone, in Science Speaks calculated the probability of one man fulfilling 48 prophecies to be 10 to the 157th power. To put this into a mathematical probability formula picture this: The electron is about as small an object as we can imagine. If we had a cubic inch of these electrons and tried to count them, it would take us (at 250 per minute) 19,000 times 19,000 times 19,000 years to count them. Now mark one of them, and thoroughly stir it into the whole mass. What chance does a blindfolded man have of finding the right electron? --- The same chance as one man of fulfilling 48 prophecies about Christ, without being the Son of God!
This is what that number, when literally written out would look like.
1 in 10,000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000,
000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000!
This is proof that the Bible is supernaturally inspired by God and that Jesus is the Messiah!
Logged
musicllover
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 418


Seek ye first the kingdom of God.........


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2003, 01:51:38 AM »

Shared this with all my email famiily. I recieved this back from an aunt of mine who knows computer and such this is her resonse. Math and all that is nearly a forgein language to me. So for those mathimatical brains out there. Have fun.


"WOW, that is 10 with 126 zero's.  Our measuring system only goes to 1 with 100 zeros, or a google!  Or googol to be exact, 10 to the 100th power.  Supposedly google.com got its name from googol."

Million = 106
billion = 109
trillion = 1012
quadrillion = 1015
quintillion = 1018
hexillion = 1021
heptillion = 1024
octillion = 1027
nonillion = 1030
decillion = 1033
unodecillion = 1036
duodecillion = 1039
 Grin
Logged

musicllover
Wandering Saint
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 18


I'm a llama!


View Profile
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2003, 11:23:49 PM »

Pretty cool isn't it!  I have read of similar studies with similar results.
Logged
ebia
Gold Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 981


umm


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2003, 02:55:09 AM »

Pretty cool isn't it!  I have read of similar studies with similar results.
The trouble is
1.  Its pretty hard to estimate the probability of a person fulfilling a prophecy.
2.  Those probabilites are not the same for each one.
3.  Most of the prophecies are only identifiable in hindsight.  The jews do not recognise them as talking about the messiah.
This makes the maths highly suspicious.
For instance, there could be a lot of similar prophesies he hasn't fullfilled but we can't recognise them because he hasn't.  Without knowing how many of those there are, the maths is meaningless.

4.  It would be interesting, if we had this person's actual maths, to go through the bible with the sort of fine-tooth-comb that has been done for Jesus and see how many prophesies you fulfill, and what he says the chance of that are.  I suspect you'd be surprised.  Only trouble is, it would take too long.

Logged

"You shall know the truth, the truth shall set you free.

Christ doesn't need lies or censorship.
musicllover
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 418


Seek ye first the kingdom of God.........


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2003, 11:47:15 AM »

"The trouble is
1.  Its pretty hard to estimate the probability of a person fulfilling a prophecy.
2.  Those probabilites are not the same for each one.
3.  Most of the prophecies are only identifiable in hindsight.  The jews do not recognise them as talking about the messiah.
This makes the maths highly suspicious."



     I thing this is still pretty cool, you seem to be looking at the glass as half empty rather than half full.
      I don't understand #1. Do you believe Jesus fullfill prophecy or not? You take the total of what prophecies we know of, and see how many Jesus fullfilled, compare this to any avarage person and find a number. Any average person isn't going to fullfill 45 let alone 2 or maybe if your lucky 5.  WHy worry about those we don't know of? WHich I'm not sure there is any but its a possiblity, We are only human, and error in many ways.
   2 I would think the probablities have to be the same to begin with, start with a simple number, like a person fillfilling 5, you have to start with the same for each person or it won't work right. The fact that Jesus fulfills 45 out of a 3 hundred KNOWN. WHo else is even going to come close. Seem that makes it that much amazing. Maybe you could  Measure youself and some of your friends, easy enough right, you begin with 0 end with 0, we aren't born in the right place or era. Maybe use some other bible personalities from that era. Your still not going to come close
    3 ,You said  prophecies aren't identifable except in hind site? well yes, thats true. To be true they have to come true, so prophecy are known, it is acomplished or fulfilled you see it, remember the prophecy, ...so yes it is hindsight. How else will a prophecy be full fill if not using hindsight? A person can't "setup" or plan on filling a prophecy, that would make them a false prophet. Like having a gallon of blood in your shirt pocket to make water turn to blood.
    Most Jews of that day knew some of the prophecies if not ALL concering the Messiah. SO some of the jews knew there was a messiah coming, they just didn't want to belive it was Jesus. Yes there had been messiahs before Jesus's birth,they still didn't die on a cross and raise in 3 days, to be seen by many witness, doesn't resurrection of Jesus put him a totally diff catagory , ,. Raising after 3 days... That is the one and only prophecy that NO ONE could fill, except the true Messiah.
  The Jews will eventually realize that Jesus is the only one.
 I ask gently, don't you believe in the resurrection of Jesus?
blessing
« Last Edit: July 25, 2003, 11:28:43 PM by musicllover » Logged

musicllover
musicllover
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 418


Seek ye first the kingdom of God.........


View Profile
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2003, 11:55:25 PM »

Ebia,
     r u still thinking.  Grin. seen the thread and you hadn't repsonded, hope your Ok.
Logged

musicllover
Knox
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 78


I'm a llama!


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2003, 02:58:31 PM »

Anyone who is able to read the Tanakh in Hebrew will tell you that most of these so-called 'prophecies' do not exist when read in the original language and with an understanding of the culture of the people who wrote these books.

It is kind of shocking really, considering how important God's word is to Christians, how few of them take the effort to learn how to read the scriptures in the original languages, or to educate themselves so that they can gain a better understanding.
Logged
musicllover
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 418


Seek ye first the kingdom of God.........


View Profile
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2003, 06:43:03 PM »

Knox,
        So what do you believe? If there is any error its with how people read, interpt it, or chose not to heed any of it. The word itself is with our error, and any transilation is just that a transilation. God simply is not going to let his real word become void, it will return full fold what is written. Prophecy or not. Or what ever you call it, there will be a time, a day, an hour, and judgement. Even when you don't believe in the events. In all probablility, and I'm not a math person, but if you took 1 part of a chance out all of the googles of chances out there, and that "part of one" chance was real, what honestly have you got to loose? Sure you loose a small part of something you never believed in..........EXCEPT....that one part of a chance can gives you eternity, or  hell,,,,,,,,If that makes sense.
      There has been lots of debates KJV v NIV or what ever. ALL except the Hebrew are transilatoins. And even at that I've seen people debate the meaning of the Hebrew text as well.
     So when a certain church add to, or rewrites it the orginal transaltion is present in some warped form. Scriptures say its for the equiping of his saints (can't recall the ref right now but can get it later if you like). The Lord uses what we give him, in our weakness. And we WILL answer for it.
      You don't believe in prophecy? or Jesus in general? So what do you feel the "orginal" text says about "prophecy"?
Cause I really find it truly amazing that men of old olden times could predict the birth of a child to a virgin, name Jesus, who would die on a cross for the sins of the world, thousands of years before the actual even. Then its even more amazing that anybody could even come close to fulling all "events" as Jesus did. Not more than the last messiah, but ALL of them. Even if Jesus were to "act" out and fill each prediction, he defiantly couldn't have raised himself from being dead, 3 days, you say not true, who rolled the stone away? Or what of the guards they didn't see him leave. If he was JUST flesh and blood, he'd been pretty cold at night, pretty hungary after 3 days, and defiantly very sick from the near death beating he recieved. I doubt very seriously he could have walked, his arms would have felt like they were dragging the ground even if could have stood.
     Well kid is needing a taxi driver, gotta run.
Keep your heart and mind on thing ubove
Logged

musicllover
Paul2
Gold Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 531



View Profile
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2003, 08:37:38 PM »

     Some of Jesus fulfilled prophecies:

   1. Born in Bethleham
   2. lived in Nazareth
   3. went to Egypt, I call my son from egypt.
   4. Healed the sick, cured the blind
   5. From the tribe of Judea.
   6. Decendant of David.
   7. Silent at his trial facing crucifixion.
   8. crucified.
   9. not having any bones broken during crucifixion.
  10. soldiers casting lots for his garments
  11. betrayed by a friend
  12. betrayed for 30 pieces of silver.
  13. entered Jerusalem riding on a donkey colt.
  14. arrived in Jerusalem on the exact final day of the  
       69th week of Daniel, Palm sunday April 6th 32 a.d.
  15. spoke in parables.
  16. rebuilt his temple (body) in 3 days (ressurrection).
  17. the holy one of Israel would not stay in the grave        
       to decompose.

         these are just a few that come to mind.
Logged

musicllover
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 418


Seek ye first the kingdom of God.........


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2003, 10:48:49 PM »

 See it doesn't even take a mathmatician, already Paul2 has 17 just from memory alone, and Jesus fullfilled all 300.
     Is God the greatest.
Logged

musicllover
ebia
Gold Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 981


umm


View Profile
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2003, 03:32:40 AM »

Quote
See it doesn't even take a mathmatician, already Paul2 has 17 just from memory alone, and Jesus fullfilled all 300
Don't get me wrong - I think the number of prophesies Jesus fulfilled is pretty impressive.

What I take issue with is the rubbish maths.   And thinks like
Quote
and Jesus fullfilled all 300
How did you decide that there are 300.   He may have fulfilled 300 (say), but since we can only identify most of them as prophesies by looking back and seeing that he did fulfill them, you wouldn't know if there were others he didn't.  You have to take that on trust - and therefore it can't prove he is the Christ, since you needed to assume he is in order to determine the prophesies.


Quote
   I thing this is still pretty cool, you seem to be looking at the glass as half empty rather than half full.
No, I'm a maths teacher, with a particular interest in probability, and so I hate to see it abused.

Quote
I don't understand #1. Do you believe Jesus fullfill prophecy or not?

Of course I do, but that is irrelevent to the maths.

Quote
You take the total of what prophecies we know of, and see how many Jesus fullfilled, compare this to any avarage person and find a number. Any average person isn't going to fullfill 45 let alone 2 or maybe if your lucky 5.
I suspect you could find people who fulfilled a lot more than 5 if you look hard enough - and people have looked extreamly hard to find the ones Jesus fulfilled.    How many do Muslims claim Mohammed fulfilled, for instance?  (I think they are wrong, but that is beside the point.)

 
Quote
WHy worry about those we don't know of? WHich I'm not sure there is any but its a possiblity.  
Because it affects the maths.  If there were a million unknown ones that Jesus didn't fulfill, 300 that he did would not look very impressive, would it.

Quote
   3 ,You said  prophecies aren't identifable except in hind site? well yes, thats true. To be true they have to come true, so prophecy are known, it is acomplished or fulfilled you see it, remember the prophecy, ...so yes it is hindsight. How else will a prophecy be full fill if not using hindsight? A person can't "setup" or plan on filling a prophecy, that would make them a false prophet. Like having a gallon of blood in your shirt pocket to make water turn to blood.
 I know, but you can't just ignore the fact when considering the maths of it.

Quote
  Most Jews of that day knew some of the prophecies if not ALL concering the Messiah. SO some of the jews knew there was a messiah coming, they just didn't want to belive it was Jesus. Yes there had been messiahs before Jesus's birth,they still didn't die on a cross and raise in 3 days, to be seen by many witness, doesn't resurrection of Jesus put him a totally diff catagory , ,. Raising after 3 days... That is the one and only prophecy that NO ONE could fill, except the true Messiah.
Some are pretty clear, yes.  But there are a lot that Jews deny being messianic prophesies at all, and that were not considered messianic prophesies in 1 BC.

Quote
The Jews will eventually realize that Jesus is the only one.
I ask gently, don't you believe in the resurrection of Jesus?
This has nothing to do with what I believe.  I'm arguing with the maths, not the theology.
Logged

"You shall know the truth, the truth shall set you free.

Christ doesn't need lies or censorship.
musicllover
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 418


Seek ye first the kingdom of God.........


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2003, 08:58:45 AM »

Quote
See it doesn't even take a mathmatician, already Paul2 has 17 just from memory alone, and Jesus fullfilled all 300
Don't get me wrong - I think the number of prophesies Jesus fulfilled is pretty impressive.

What I take issue with is the rubbish maths.   And thinks like
Quote
and Jesus fullfilled all 300
How did you decide that there are 300.   He may have fulfilled 300 (say), but since we can only identify most of them as prophesies by looking back and seeing that he did fulfill them, you wouldn't know if there were others he didn't.  You have to take that on trust - and therefore it can't prove he is the Christ, since you needed to assume he is in order to determine the prophesies.


Quote
   I thing this is still pretty cool, you seem to be looking at the glass as half empty rather than half full.
No, I'm a maths teacher, with a particular interest in probability, and so I hate to see it abused.

Quote
I don't understand #1. Do you believe Jesus fullfill prophecy or not?

Of course I do, but that is irrelevent to the maths.

Quote
You take the total of what prophecies we know of, and see how many Jesus fullfilled, compare this to any avarage person and find a number. Any average person isn't going to fullfill 45 let alone 2 or maybe if your lucky 5.
I suspect you could find people who fulfilled a lot more than 5 if you look hard enough - and people have looked extreamly hard to find the ones Jesus fulfilled.    How many do Muslims claim Mohammed fulfilled, for instance?  (I think they are wrong, but that is beside the point.)

 
Quote
WHy worry about those we don't know of? WHich I'm not sure there is any but its a possiblity.  
Because it affects the maths.  If there were a million unknown ones that Jesus didn't fulfill, 300 that he did would not look very impressive, would it.

Quote
   3 ,You said  prophecies aren't identifable except in hind site? well yes, thats true. To be true they have to come true, so prophecy are known, it is acomplished or fulfilled you see it, remember the prophecy, ...so yes it is hindsight. How else will a prophecy be full fill if not using hindsight? A person can't "setup" or plan on filling a prophecy, that would make them a false prophet. Like having a gallon of blood in your shirt pocket to make water turn to blood.
 I know, but you can't just ignore the fact when considering the maths of it.

Quote
  Most Jews of that day knew some of the prophecies if not ALL concering the Messiah. SO some of the jews knew there was a messiah coming, they just didn't want to belive it was Jesus. Yes there had been messiahs before Jesus's birth,they still didn't die on a cross and raise in 3 days, to be seen by many witness, doesn't resurrection of Jesus put him a totally diff catagory , ,. Raising after 3 days... That is the one and only prophecy that NO ONE could fill, except the true Messiah.
Some are pretty clear, yes.  But there are a lot that Jews deny being messianic prophesies at all, and that were not considered messianic prophesies in 1 BC.

Quote
The Jews will eventually realize that Jesus is the only one.
I ask gently, don't you believe in the resurrection of Jesus?
This has nothing to do with what I believe.  I'm arguing with the maths, not the theology.


Ebia,
      In one word,  FAITH, that is how, someone has sat down come up with a figure of 300 not me, that was the number posted in the first post on this string.
      Your a math teacher, glad to hear it, but don't let logic get in the way of simple fun, and why are you so defensive if you believe in the ressurection, your saying you believe in  Jesus Christ,.......you said ...."but that is irrelevent to the maths".........really, not sure I would agree with that this was a "fun" thing not something that should have upset anyone. I mention the half glass thing because I understood you to deny some of what Christ doen. Besides you can't say well he might have fullfill 30 out of 100, 299 out of all 300 (what ever that number might be), I'm sure you understand that to be who he is, (the true Messiah) he has to full filled all prophecies up to this day and age......and I place my life that he fullfill the prophecies that haven't occure yet like the second coming ect ect ect.. . No one is taken math and ruinning it down, it started with a simple number. For simple folk to understand, in all probablity there are more than 300......but I take it by faith that he full fill allllllll 300 mention in the first string.......don't you?  And if you agree end of story right?

blessings,
Logged

musicllover
Katherine
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 12


Being a Christian means being EXACTLY like Christ!


View Profile
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2003, 10:00:00 AM »

That proves nothing. My faith is the evidence of things unseen. My actions and attitude is the evidence of Christ in my life. Creation proves creationism. It doesn't need to be proven. We look ridiculous when combine unrelated numbers together to come up with unrelated answers. Just trust and obey and God proves Himself all the time.
Logged

God bless us if we're right! God forgive us if we're wrong.
musicllover
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 418


Seek ye first the kingdom of God.........


View Profile
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2003, 10:16:34 AM »

That proves nothing. My faith is the evidence of things unseen. My actions and attitude is the evidence of Christ in my life. Creation proves creationism. It doesn't need to be proven. We look ridiculous when combine unrelated numbers together to come up with unrelated answers. Just trust and obey and God proves Himself all the time.

Katherine,
        You are so very very right, Christians don't need, numbers. That isn't what I mean, its fun and thats about it. BUT , But its appeals to the carnally minded. I have a brother in law that if facts good be presented to him like this then it would come closer to witnessing to him than saying have faith brother this good man died and came back to life........ But for us on this board we should not need numbers. The facts speak for themselves, if using numbers could convince some one to take a little closer look then I see nothing wrong with that.(and no I'm not going to go commit some kind of sin to witness to someone) I love reading the book by Grant Feffrey, The Signature of God, the second one isn't as good but his first book deals with the scientificl way of trying to understand Bibical truths.
Logged

musicllover
ebia
Gold Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 981


umm


View Profile
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2003, 03:45:22 AM »

Quote
     In one word,  FAITH, that is how, someone has sat down come up with a figure of 300 not me, that was the number posted in the first post on this string.
      Your a math teacher, glad to hear it, but don't let logic get in the way of simple fun,  

I guess I don't see badly incorrect maths as "good fun".

But the OP did talk about "proof", which implies someone somewhere along the line thought it was more than just fun.


Quote
and why are you so defensive if you believe in the ressurection, your saying you believe in  Jesus Christ,.......you said ...."but that is irrelevent to the maths".........really,
I'm just defensive about the maths - thats all.
I have no doubt that what it attempts to prove is true, I'm arguing that the "proof" is faulty.

Quote
Besides you can't say well he might have fullfill 30 out of 100, 299 out of all 300 (what ever that number might be), I'm sure you understand that to be who he is, (the true Messiah) he has to full filled all prophecies up to this day and age......
Those that talk about the messiah, yes.
But suppose we took one of the prophesies that we see Him as having fulfilled but which was not recognised as a messianic prophesy before 33AD (say).  Let us imagine a world where he fullfilled all the other same prophesies as he did really except that one.  The we would never have identified that as a messianic prophesy, and so would never have worried about him having fullfilled it.

Now imagine that there are other prophesies littered throughout the OT like that, that he didn't fulfill - we would never know.

This kind of identification is vitally important if you are trying to calculate the probablility of him fullfilling a given number of prophesies.

On the other hand, it is all irrelevent, IMHO, because there are a tiny handful of important prophesies that are vitally important and convincing, which He did fulfill, and he did fulfill all those prophesies that were pre-identifiable.

If you counted up the latter - those that the Jews have always recognised as messianic, and thought about those, you would be off to a better start towards calculating an interesting probability figure.

Except for dealing with these:
Quote
and I place my life that he fullfill the prophecies that haven't occure yet like the second coming ect ect ect..
.

Quote
No one is taken math and ruinning it down, it started with a simple number. For simple folk to understand, in all probablity there are more than 300......
I'm not offended - I'm just trying to correct peoples' ideas about probability.

Quote
but I take it by faith that he full fill allllllll 300 mention in the first string.......don't you?  

yes
Quote
And if you agree end of story right?
yes as far as faith is concerned
no as regards the maths
Logged

"You shall know the truth, the truth shall set you free.

Christ doesn't need lies or censorship.
Pages: [1] 2 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  



More From ChristiansUnite...    About Us | Privacy Policy | | ChristiansUnite.com Site Map | Statement of Beliefs



Copyright © 1999-2019 ChristiansUnite.com. All rights reserved.
Please send your questions, comments, or bug reports to the

Powered by SMF 1.1 RC2 | SMF © 2001-2005, Lewis Media