The Role of the Church - offense or defense?

[MalkyEL]

cris wrote:
When I read your post above, the first thought that came to mind was this: "Where two or more are gathered together in My name, there I am in their midst."

nana:
So why do christians then berate those who choose not to attend services in the brick building?

Is the "do not forsake the assembly" only in a church building? Who is the body of Messiah?

[felix102]

Quote:
Each and every one of us that realise this  must    must      must    do our part to bring things back to where they should be. To realise that it is a pleasure to serve the Lord, to set our eyes on Him and then to se4rve Him with a pure and simple heart. If you are not in a position to preach or teach this to others then lead by example.

nana:
I am puzzled as to why this doctrine permeates Christianity - that the church will somehow rise in significance and glory in this age - "where they should be".  Can someone provide scriptural proof of this?

Hi sister,

I'm not sure what bro Roger is refering to in 'bring things back to where they should be.' What 'must must must' be done is 1 Corinthians 14:26.

I talked about what shouldn't be in the local church. And why the local churches today are not doing so well. You've probably experienced many things about that. As said before...it is lack of a pure heart that calls out to the Lord. The assembly is simply "gathering in His name." (matt 18:20). Even now as we are united we have gathered in His name. On this forum we are loving God, praising God and worshiping Him. God works through the ages and internet is definetely a part of that.

But there is definetely a difference in gathering with someone physically...what is seen before you are just words but when you see a person that is the expression of God- we are all vessels made to be filled by God so that we may express His Glory. That is the difference. I pray that God may send you a saint.  

The Church needs to be rising and glorifying God. The Church being us means we are rising and becoming a glory to God. From where we have fallen short of the glory of God, we are returning to that same glory through Jesus Christ. "For all have fallen short of the glory of God" yet "while we were still sinners Christ died for us". We are made in the image of God but before we were saved that image was empty...now it is being filled by God, the life-giving spirit. "We will know Him for He will be among us and IN us!"

The Church is also the light of the world. Meaning we are the light of world. So let our gentleness and goodness be made known to this world. Especially love. Love transcends all things.

"No one lights a lamp and puts it in a place where it will be hidden, or under a bowl. Instead he puts it on its stand, so that those who come in may see the light." (luke 11:33)





Brother roger,

The fact that a pastor has a degree in preaching only means he's qualified in terms of this world. But look at the disciples of Christ. Were they not simple men with no previous education?

When people work with their own knowledge to serve God it is fruitless. It becomes a chore instead of a passion. WE have to walk with our spirit instead of our mind. "lean not on our own understandings" instead "trust in God with ALL our heart". (prov 3:5)

Many problems some pastors have is trying to please the crowd before them. "I want to make a eloquent, funny, and enjoyable sermon for these people" The pharisees were as such as they seeked praise from men more than God. The pharisees were very wise man according to the time. There were many scribes and theologians who knew a lot about God. But they were strangers to Jesus Christ who WAS God.

We must rely on God and when we do the Holy Spirit will come upon us.

"I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict" (luke 21:15)

Who will give you the words? Not you, not me, not a man with a phd in theology...but Jesus Christ alone!

[MalkyEL]

felix wrote:
The Church needs to be rising and glorifying God. The Church being us means we are rising and becoming a glory to God. From where we have fallen short of the glory of God, we are returning to that same glory through Jesus Christ. "For all have fallen short of the glory of God" yet "while we were still sinners Christ died for us". We are made in the image of God but before we were saved that image was empty...now it is being filled by God, the life-giving spirit. "We will know Him for He will be among us and IN us!"

nana:
I do not believe the church is rising to anything, really.  It is stagnant, near death.  Jesus said there was to be a great falling away where even the elect were in danger.  This does not sound like becoming a glory to God.

The church is not a gathering of people.  It is a unity of Spirit. People who, all over the world, are spiritually mature, contending for the faith, serving God, loving God, reaching out to the lost and broken however God directs them.

I do not believe the institutionalized church is the gathering of the assembly.  I believe that gathering is not physical, but spiritual.  I can study God's Word with a like minded believer online and it is still the presence of Jesus and His Spirit there fully.

Americans really do not get it.  We have religious freedom.  The institutionalized church here is not the body of Messiah.  It is believers who are sold out to Him, committed, sacrificed and doing His work.  Yes, some of those are in the IC, but God is not impressed with our brick buildings.  He uses those whose hearts are bent towards Him.

shalom, nana

[cris]

cris wrote:
When I read your post above, the first thought that came to mind was this: "Where two or more are gathered together in My name, there I am in their midst."

nana:
So why do christians then berate those who choose not to attend services in the brick building?

Is the "do not forsake the assembly" only in a church building? Who is the body of Messiah?

1.---Probably because they're in bondage and envy those who will think for themselves.

2.---You would have to ask a person who holds to that belief because I don't.

3.---The Body of Christ are those who believe in the work of the Cross of Jesus Christ and follow Him.  (all IMO)


cris

[MalkyEL]

oops - sorry cris - my questions were not aimed at you personally or critically  

I have met those who say I am not a Christian because I do not attend church.

And I agree heartily with #3  

shalom, nana

[felix102]

felix wrote:
The Church needs to be rising and glorifying God. The Church being us means we are rising and becoming a glory to God. From where we have fallen short of the glory of God, we are returning to that same glory through Jesus Christ. "For all have fallen short of the glory of God" yet "while we were still sinners Christ died for us". We are made in the image of God but before we were saved that image was empty...now it is being filled by God, the life-giving spirit. "We will know Him for He will be among us and IN us!"

nana:
I do not believe the church is rising to anything, really.  It is stagnant, near death.  Jesus said there was to be a great falling away where even the elect were in danger.  This does not sound like becoming a glory to God.

The church is not a gathering of people.  It is a unity of Spirit. People who, all over the world, are spiritually mature, contending for the faith, serving God, loving God, reaching out to the lost and broken however God directs them.

I do not believe the institutionalized church is the gathering of the assembly.  I believe that gathering is not physical, but spiritual.  I can study God's Word with a like minded believer online and it is still the presence of Jesus and His Spirit there fully.

Americans really do not get it.  We have religious freedom.  The institutionalized church here is not the body of Messiah.  It is believers who are sold out to Him, committed, sacrificed and doing His work.  Yes, some of those are in the IC, but God is not impressed with our brick buildings.  He uses those whose hearts are bent towards Him.

shalom, nana

Sister, I dont think you've realized what I've said.

There is a difference between the Institutionalized Church (I call it the local church) and The Church (with capital C). When I write church (lowercase) that is totally different from Church (uppercase).

I was talking about the Church...
nana:
It is a unity of Spirit.

Felix:
We drink from the same Spirit.

nana:
I do not believe the church is rising to anything, really.  It is stagnant, near death.  

Felix:
I agree. This is what I have said about the local church in another thread.


In the following you call this The Church...

nana:
People who, all over the world, are spiritually mature, contending for the faith, serving God, loving God, reaching out to the lost and broken however God directs them.

Felix:
Yes. The Church (capital C) is us...us being ALL believers.

This Church was the one I was refering to in the rising and becoming the glory of God. This Church IS us! ALL Believers. I was not talking about the local church or IC. I've talked about that difference... http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=6754;start=30

With that in mind reread the post again.

[cris]

oops - sorry cris - my questions were not aimed at you personally or critically  

I have met those who say I am not a Christian because I do not attend church.

And I agree heartily with #3  

shalom, nana

Half heartily with 1 and 2    or    not heartily at all.  

[Soldier4Christ]

felix102,

The fact that a pastor has a degree in preaching only means he's qualified in terms of this world. But look at the disciples of Christ. Were they not simple men with no previous education?

When people work with their own knowledge to serve God it is fruitless. It becomes a chore instead of a passion. WE have to walk with our spirit instead of our mind. "lean not on our own understandings" instead "trust in God with ALL our heart". (prov 3:5)

Many problems some pastors have is trying to please the crowd before them. "I want to make a eloquent, funny, and enjoyable sermon for these people" The pharisees were as such as they seeked praise from men more than God. The pharisees were very wise man according to the time. There were many scribes and theologians who knew a lot about God. But they were strangers to Jesus Christ who WAS God.

We must rely on God and when we do the Holy Spirit will come upon us.

I agree with this statement completely. It is the Holy Spirit that guides us and not the education/knowledge of that man.

May I ask what prompted you to say this to me? Was it my comment earlier in this thread about the youth pastor without a GED? If so then you missed my point in that comment.

[Evangelist]

What should the church do? What is the church?

Acts 2 provides the most concise example of what the church (ecclesia) is, and what it is to do.

1. Evangelism. Preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ to those who do not know Him. Acts 2:5-13 establishes the audience. Although those listening were "devout men...", they were not believers in Jesus, so they fit the definition of unsaved. Acts 2:14, Peter begins preaching the Gospel, and it results in conversions.

2. Fellowship. Acts 2:42 records the results of the conversion, and what the believers did.

3. Prayer. Acts 2:42 also stipulates this "job" of the church.

4. Discipleship. Again, Acts 2:42 establishes "continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine, also Acts 2:46

5. Ministry. Acts 2:43, wonders and signs, Acts 2:45 parting to them all as each had need.

6. Worship. Acts 2 begins with the statement that "...they were all with one accord...", which means that they individually were of the same mind in worshiping God, and seeking HIS will.  In Acts 2:46, it repeats that the "continued daily with one accord in the temple (which at that time was their "church building", AND from house to house continued with fellowship.  I'm reasonably sure that during this bread breaking they didn't just chatter aimlessly, but talked and discussed and LEARNED of the things of God, and Jesus. Acts 2:47, they "praised God."

I would submit that any "church" that doesn't do all of these things, in equal measure, is not functioning in the way it should.  I would further submit that each of these things is not the "responsibility" of any one person, or committee, but is the function of each and every member of that congregation.

When a church does these things, the result is shown in Acts 2:47...."and the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved."

"Church" is where two or more are gathered in His name. "Church" is when any one or more are doing any one or more of the things named above. "Church" is wherever these things are being done. "Church" is the redeemed...wherever, and whenever....in a building, house, garage, apartment, street corner, cave, park bench, treehouse, under a bridge, in a cellar or in a cell.

[Soldier4Christ]

Amen, Brother Hank!

[felix102]

felix102,

The fact that a pastor has a degree in preaching only means he's qualified in terms of this world. But look at the disciples of Christ. Were they not simple men with no previous education?

When people work with their own knowledge to serve God it is fruitless. It becomes a chore instead of a passion. WE have to walk with our spirit instead of our mind. "lean not on our own understandings" instead "trust in God with ALL our heart". (prov 3:5)

Many problems some pastors have is trying to please the crowd before them. "I want to make a eloquent, funny, and enjoyable sermon for these people" The pharisees were as such as they seeked praise from men more than God. The pharisees were very wise man according to the time. There were many scribes and theologians who knew a lot about God. But they were strangers to Jesus Christ who WAS God.

We must rely on God and when we do the Holy Spirit will come upon us.

I agree with this statement completely. It is the Holy Spirit that guides us and not the education/knowledge of that man.

May I ask what prompted you to say this to me? Was it my comment earlier in this thread about the youth pastor without a GED? If so then you missed my point in that comment.

I see brother. I guess what prompted me to say that was from that comment of that youth pastor w/out the GED. I suspected that you believed he needed one to be able to minister.

I was just more concerned about the belief that going to some ministering school will teach you the things of God. The school and the world cannot teach us anything about the things of God, only God Himself who is the Holy Spirit.

Maybe that youth pastor is incompetant to be a youth minister. I don't know but I strongly believe you have good judgement brother.

I have missed your point. I dont know anything about that situation. But I would like to know what point you were trying to make.

[Soldier4Christ]

felix102

I went back and reread what I wrote and can see why you didn't get my point. My original satement said "Yet this individual is publicly putting down kids fro not going to church."

What I meant to say was that he was publicly putting kids down (by name) for not getting formal schooling which is no different than what he did. One of his teens was being homeschooled with a very highly approved curriculum yet he put this teen down for it saying the teen was not qualified to do anything for the church because he was not getting a formal education. The teen refused to come back to that church.

This youth pastor knows very little of the Bible and got his position simply because he was related to the majority of the church members.