Rapture

[shrekandogre]

Im interested in seeing what the majority on this forum believe what will happen.

[Shammu]

I use to be a mid-tribber, through what I have learned. I now believe that the Rapture will come, before Tribulation.

So BRNZ before you say anything.......... Shhhhhhhhh!

[Paul2]

I use to be a mid-tribber, through what I have learned. I now believe that the Rapture will come, before Tribulation.

So BRNZ before you say anything.......... Shhhhhhhhh!

   "And the truth shall set you free!"  

                                                          Paul2

[Paul2]

I use to be a mid-tribber, through what I have learned. I now believe that the Rapture will come, before Tribulation.

So BRNZ before you say anything.......... Shhhhhhhhh!

   "And the truth shall set you free!"  

                                                          Paul2

[Bronzesnake]

I use to be a mid-tribber, through what I have learned. I now believe that the Rapture will come, before Tribulation.

So BRNZ before you say anything.......... Shhhhhhhhh!

 He finally got it God!

[Shammu]

I use to be a mid-tribber, through what I have learned. I now believe that the Rapture will come, before Tribulation.

So BRNZ before you say anything.......... Shhhhhhhhh!

 He finally got it God!

I asked you to be nice.  

[nChrist]

Brothers and Sisters,

I've always held the opinion that the Rapture will occur before the Tribulation period. However, I would quickly note that many sweet brothers and sisters in Christ have other views. This is a topic worthy of discussion, but not hatred or division.

I have many reasons for my views, but the biggest ones involve the SEALING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT of the hearts of those who love JESUS. In brief, the Bible clearly states that the Holy Spirit (RESTRAINER) will be removed from the earth. No power in Heaven or earth can break the SEAL OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. Many of us involved in this study already have many pages of posts that describe in detail the reasons for our views. If another brother or sister in Christ disagrees, we still love them the same.

Love In Christ,
Tom

1Corinthians 1:18  For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

[quadding101]

The rapture is several years in the future yet. We need to prepare for what is coming. The next big things on God's agenda r the raising up of Israel and the bringing down of America. This country has been blessed beyond any other and this has become a wicked nation. When the luke warm church sits by and lets over 1 million of its unborn be murdered each year this has become a wicked nation. In the near future God is going to give Israel knowledge and understanding that will make them the center of the world, give them the wealth of the world and take away the wealth of their enemies. It will cause the Jews of the world to go back to Israel. It will cause Russia to one day mass a huge muslem army and come against Israel. The so called 7 year trib. will soon start after this. It will take care of the muslem problem and clear the site where the temple is to be built. It will take time to rebuild Jerusalem and build the temple. u can read about it in ezekiel 38 & 39 it starts out (A country that was scattered by the sword that has been brought back and is at peace) Israel has not even been brought back yet. There is much to happen before the rapture. God is going to allow nuclear bombs to be set off in this country that will bring down our economy. When people r in need they will flock to the church. We need to prepare to take care of our families because there will be few jobs and the church needs to prepare to help people and win souls for christ. I know this is not the popular belief but it is the truth. I will not argue with anyone over this i am just warning u of what is coming. PREPARE  

[BigD]

blackeyepeas:
You posted:
"I have many reasons for my views, but the biggest ones involve the SEALING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT of the hearts of those who love JESUS. In brief, the Bible clearly states that the Holy Spirit (RESTRAINER) will be removed from the earth. No power in Heaven or earth can break the SEAL OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. Many of us involved in this study already have many pages of posts that describe in detail the reasons for our views. If another brother or sister in Christ disagrees, we still love them the same."



BigD responds:
IMHO it is not the Holy Spirit that is the (RESTRAINER). It will still be on the earth after the rapture.

My views are in line with Pastor C.R.Stam, founder and past president fo the Berean Bible Society. In his commentary on "THESSALONIANS" he stated the following:

HOW IS THE MANIFESTATION OF ANTICHRIST BEING RESTRAINED?

The Thessalonian believers also understood, says Paul, what the restraining force was that hindered Antichrist from being revealed until "his time" (Ver. 6).

"For the mystery of iniquity doth already work; only he who now letteth will let until he be taken out of the way" (Ver. 7).

The "mystery of iniquity” stands over against the "mystery of godliness”,,, referred to in I Tim. 3:16.

How did we believers come to know and love the Lord Jesus Christ? This was accomplished, not in some dramatic, outward way, but by the quiet working of the Holy Spirit, as we received the Word as the truth of God.

But most people are not aware that Satan works in the same way, only from sinister motives. He is called in Eph. 2:2, "the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience."

And as "the mystery of godliness" quietly does its work in the saints, so "the mystery of iniquity [or lawlessness] doth already work" in the children of disobedience, behind the scenes, but very effectively, for the Prince of Lawlessness is the driving force that carries it forward.

Satan has not yet been revealed in Antichrist, however. For the present he is permitted to scheme, and influence men behind the scenes, but is restrained from promoting lawlessness unchecked.

What is it that restrains the Antichrist from being revealed and hinders this wicked world from "going the limit" in sin?

Some say it is Satan, who is holding on to his place in the heavenlies "until he be taken out of the way" (Rev. 12:9), but it is hard to imagine Satan, even in and by his personal absence from this earth, restraining evil.

Others believe that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit. This solution would be acceptable were it not for the fact that the Holy Spirit will continue working on earth during the Tribulation, helping the believing remnant to remain faithful to the end.

The author holds that it is the Spirit in the Church, the Body of Christ that is referred to, or we might say, the influence of the Spirit through the Church for, remember, it is not the police forces of this world, or its armies, that restrain the evil. It is the true Church, indwelt by the Holy Spirit. When the Church is "taken out of the way," the Spirit's ministry through its members will no longer function on earth to restrain lawlessness or the manifestation of Antichrist. This we believe is the only consistent solution to the identity of the Restrainer and is another strong proof that the rapture of the members of Christ's Body will precede the manifestation of Antichrist, first as the great leader and then as the great blasphemer.

Because we may not agree on this issue; it does not mean that I do not love you. We just have a different point of view in this area of the Bible.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord.

[nChrist]

BigD,

Nice try again, but my answer to you remains the same, "No thanks."  You need to find someone who likes to argue for vanity purposes and/or semantics. I don't like either, so count me out. If someone comes along who fills your needs, I'm sure they will let you know. In fact, we might try to get the two of you together in a thread, sell tickets, and have some entertainment.  

In case you are wondering, my last post to you still stands, word for word.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 102:12  But thou, O LORD, shalt endure for ever; and thy remembrance unto all generations.

[shrekandogre]

Haha i want to point out blackeyepeas that he was the first to talk.

So BigD what about Romans 5:9 and 1 Thessalonians  1:9-10; 5:9

It promises us(Christians) will be saved from the coming wrath and God will not let us endure it.   Also I questioned the thing about the Holy Spirt being down here as well so he cant be the Restrainer as well a while back but one big thing that contradicts with this though is the Holy Spirit is omnipresent so therefore doesnt that mean he can be holding back the antichrist and be in believers?    Also the imminence of the Lord's return contradicts that point because if it was post we know that we wait after 7 years then he come or we know that if its in the middle then we know that he will be coming pretty soon after the treaty.  And just because there are Christians during the Tribulation doesnt mean that the God didnt take the believers up and then come back down.  Remeber time is realtive to God that means that even though it seems to fast a time for you and me its not for God.  I hope you understand my viewpoint of this whole thing I say it in a nice way.

[Bronzesnake]

Haha i want to point out blackeyepeas that he was the first to talk.

So BigD what about Romans 5:9 and 1 Thessalonians  1:9-10; 5:9

It promises us(Christians) will be saved from the coming wrath and God will not let us endure it.   Also I questioned the thing about the Holy Spirt being down here as well so he cant be the Restrainer as well a while back but one big thing that contradicts with this though is the Holy Spirit is omnipresent so therefore doesnt that mean he can be holding back the antichrist and be in believers?    Also the imminence of the Lord's return contradicts that point because if it was post we know that we wait after 7 years then he come or we know that if its in the middle then we know that he will be coming pretty soon after the treaty.  And just because there are Christians during the Tribulation doesnt mean that the God didnt take the believers up and then come back down.  Remeber time is realtive to God that means that even though it seems to fast a time for you and me its not for God.  I hope you understand my viewpoint of this whole thing I say it in a nice way.

 Good posts my friend.
Can I point out something you may not have considered?

 The saved believers do get raptured pre-trib. However, God does not send us back down during the tribulation, at least not until Jesus returns at the end.
The "Christians" that are on earth during the tribulation are people who were not saved until after the rapture.

Take care...

Bronzesnake

[BigD]

bep:
Sorry to see that you are so closed minded.

In Acts 17:17 "Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him."

It appears to me that you would have no part with the disputing that went on in that verse. However, according to my Vines concise dictionary of the Bible, the word "disputing" is from the Greek word "dialegomai" (Strongs 1256) meaing "to say thoroughly, i.e discuss: dispute, preach, reason, speak. In Vines concise dictionary is says the usage in the above verse means "reasoned."

It has been my experience with people with closed minds is that they do not desire to "reason" the Scriptures.

It also appears to me that you are saying: "Its my way or the highway."

I am still open to discussion. If you want to call that "argue" - well so be it.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

[BigD]

shrekandogre - Bronzesnake:
THANK YOU for your response. This is a good subject for discussion ("arguement" as per bep).

Maybe I didn't make myself clear previously. Therefore, I will try to show the sequence of events that will take place from the time of Pentecost. If you feel I am in error, I would appreciate correction from the Scriptures.

As I said in my previous posting, the Tribulation began at Pentecost. The signs that Joel 2:28-32 were beginning to appear. Peter says so in Acts 2:15-20. I believe that with all my heart.

We know from the Old Testament Scriptures that two things must happen before the kingdom can be established upon the earth. Israel must go through the Tribulation and the Messiah must suffer.

Even though Jesus came to earth to establish His kingdom, He never once offered the kingdom to Israel. Yes they preached "the gospel of the kingdom," because, according to OT prophesy it was the proper time. The King had been born in Bethleham, and was present with them.

In Luke 17:24, 25, Jesus says (speaking of Himself): "For as the lightning that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall the Son of man BE IN HIS DAY. (That will be at his 2nd coming.) BUT FIRST must he suffer many things, and be rejected OF THIS GENERATION (the generation He was speaking to)."

Therefore, He did not offer the kingdom AT THAT TIME. He (Jesus) had not yet suffered, and the Tribulation had not yet happened.

Peter, at Pentecost, is telling his listeners that the Tribulation has started. Being he has full understanding of the OT Scriptures, he knew and see the signs beginning. He is also aware that Israel must go through the Tribulation.

Peter can NOW justifiably offer the kingdom to Isreal. The Messiah did suffer and the Tribulation was in progress. Therefore, Peter could offer the return of Christ, and the establishment of the kingdom, in Acts 3:19-21 "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing (kingdom) shall come from the presence of the Lord: AND HE SHALL SEND JESUS CHRIST, WHICH WAS PREACHE UNTO YOU: Whom the heaven must receive UNTIL THE TIMES OF RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS, WHICH GOD HATH SPOKEN BY THE MOUTH OF HIS HOLY PROPHETS SINCE THE WORLD BEGAN."

Hey, we are talking about the King and His Kingdom coming to a restored earth.

Did Israel, as a nation, repent? NO!!! Therefore Jesus could not return to establish His Kingdom upon the earth AT THIS TIME.

Lets take a look at Israel rejection of God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit (the Trinity).

We know that Israel, rejected God the FAther when they, as a nation, refused to be baptized of John the Baptist, and ALLOWED him to be killed (be-headed). Also, they went about trying to establish their own righteousness (Romans 10:3). Then they rejected God the Son when they DEMANDED that He be curcified. They rejected God the Holy Spirit when they (the leaders) MURDERED Stephen who was filled with the Spirit in Acts 7. (Notice the progression of their implication.)

How could the nation of Israel be the blessing to the nations, as promised to Abram in Gen.12:1-3, when the nations with it leaders, as a whole, rejected the Trinity? Surely, the 12 could not do it alone through the "so called" great commission.

It appears the "kingdom program", through Israel, was bogued down.

Therefore, God interrupted the kingdom program, including the Tribulation that had begun, and set the nation of Israel aside, AFTER the stoning of Stephen.

THEN God raised up Saul/Paul, in Acts 9, to usher in "the dispensation of grace" in which we now live.

With the setting aside of Israel, God is no longer dealing with the nation of Israel as his favorite people. He is NOW dealing with ALL MANKIND on equal footing and without distinction. He (God) did this by MAKING the "THE ONE NEW MAN" of Eph. 2:15. It is known today as THE BODY OF CHRIST. Today we are to be preaching "the gospel of the grace of God" and NOT "the gospel of the kingdom." That program was interrupted and will resume again AFTER the rapture of the Chruch, the Body of Christ.

This "dispensation of grace" will end with the rapture of the Chruch, the Body of Christ. Its home is in heaven "to ever be with the Lord" (1Thess.4:17). It WILL NOT go through the Tribulation.

After the rapture there will be no members left of "the Body of Christ." The tribulation that was interrupted with the setting aside of Israel will again resume. However, there will be the 144,000 sealed Israelites, mentioned in Reveation 7:4-9 that will again preach "the gospel of the kingdom." They will have the same "Pentecostal" powers that were displayed at Pentecost. Countless numbers will be saved through their ministry. The nations will be blessed through the Jews, as promised to Abram. At the end of the Tribulation Jesus will return to establish His Kingdom, and the nations will still be blessed through the Jews, as a nation, during the milleniumn.

Nowhere in Paul's Epistles do I find that the Chruch, the Body of Christ will be part of that kingdom. Our citizenship is in heaven (Philippians 3:20), (That is a different subject that can be discussed ["argued" - as per dep] later.)

Israel, as a nation, will repent and recognize Jesus as their Messiah. That is still future and will not happen during this dispensation of grace.

This post got a little longer then I intended, but I feel it was necessary for you to understand my position.

This posting was written in love and hope it will be responded to in the same manner.

By the way, bronzesnake, today is that "YOUNG WHIPPER SNAPPER'S" 73rd birthday. (Really, I feel to young to be this old.)

[shrekandogre]

First Bronzesnake what I was trying to say i know it may have been confusing but my point was that the Holy Spirit will go up with the believers and then it will be the Holy Spirit that comes back down not the believers.(yet)

Big D...you addressed none of my points like what about the wrath of God aka tribuliation and us be excempted and what about the imminence of the Lord's Return, mid-trib isnt possible because you dont have this imminence because you know when he's comes becuase the Tribulation will begin, and what about the Church not being mentioned in the Tribulation at all in Rev. 4-19.  As well as Rev 3:10.  Joel 2:29-30 are not signs of the tribulation its talking about us recieving the Holy Spirit.  How do you know for sure that the "in the last days"  that Peter talks about isnt the last days of Jesus on this Earth.  Along with and its not Isreal that must go through it its every nonbeliever after the Rapture occurs.