why does God punish those He didn't choose?

[Sower]

So what do you think about John, 6:44, Sower,  "No one comes to me unless the Father who sent me draws him"?

This Scripture must be understood in light of another which says "And I, if I be lifted up, will draw ALL MEN to myself" and another which says "The Spirit and the Bride say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And WHOSOEVER WILL liet him take of the water of life freely."

God -- the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit -- all work together on the heart of the sinner to bring him or her to the Saviour, because "The Son of Man is come to SEEK  and to SAVE that which was lost".  THis is the true nature of God's grace towards ALL MANKIND.

[Heidi]

Ecc. 3:11, "He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet no man can fathom what God has done for them from beginning to end." So who do you think puts the desire for God in our hearts? Who do you think snatches the word away from us so that we don't believe Him? Matthew, 13:18, "Listen to what the parable of the sower means,: "When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart." John, 8:43-44, "Because you are unable to hear what I say, you belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry our his desires."  We are either ruled by the Holy Spirit or the devil. Eph. 1:4-5, "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blamesless in his sight. In love, he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ in accordance with his pleasure and will-..." who do you think is doing the choosing, Sower?

[smartinez1984]

Heidi,

Can anything or anyone that God chooses fail?

-Samson

[Heidi]

God decides circumstances and knows what will happen. He planned for Jesus to redeem us from the beginning. The messiah was prophesied early on in the bible. Therefore, He knew that we would sin and allows it for OUR OWN UNDERSTANDING, because pain is what brings us to Him, nothing else. The very fact that He steps in at times shows that when he DOESN'T step in, He has a reason for it. No, God's plans can never fail.

[smartinez1984]

Let me rephrase my question:

Can an individual that God chooses fail?

[Reba]

Tis mercy that any man is saved. Who is man in the face of GOD. When God is the standard man is filithy. Tis only HIS grace and mercy that any are saved. We all diserve death not one is good not one seeks God. The question to me is not  "why does God punish those He didn't choose?" But why does HE save any. God is sovereign I think because of the times we live in man has no idea of the meaning of the word sovereign. We are the clay He the potter.

Rom 9:15
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion
KJV.

Eph 2:5
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
KJV

Isa 64:6
6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
KJV

Ps 14:3
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
KJV

Rom 3:11
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
KJV

Rom 9:17
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
KJV

Rom 9:21
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
KJV

Rev 4:11-5:1
11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
KJV

[JudgeNot]

The question to me is not  "why does God punish those He didn't choose?" But why does HE save any. God is sovereign I think because of the times we live in man has no idea of the meaning of the word sovereign. We are the clay He the potter.

Reba - I agree.

I believe all mankind is "chosen" because God's love is limitless.  Jesus God doesn't reject people - people reject Jesus God.  Therefore, God doesn't punish those He didn't choose; rather He punishes those who do not choose Him.

[ollie]

John 12:44.  Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
 45.  And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
 46.  I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
 47.  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
 48.  He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Ollie
 

[Gracey]

yeah, that

I believe all mankind is "chosen" because God's love is limitless.  Jesus God doesn't reject people - people reject Jesus God.  Therefore, God doesn't punish those He didn't choose; rather He punishes those who do not choose Him.

and that

46.  I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
47.  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48.  He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

[Heidi]

So what you're saying then is that God is sometimes wrong in choosing people. You're also saying that our will is stronger than God's will. I heartily disagree. Jesus said; "I can do nothing without the Father." He gives all of the credit for His power to God, not Himself. Once Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit, it then ruled Him. The devil is NOT stronger than the Holy Spirit! All of His revelations came from God Himself. John, 8:27-28, "When you have lifted up the Son of man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me."   It is the Holy Spirit that empowers us and enables us to believe in Christ as the only way to God. The ones whose names were written in the book of life in the beginning can't be erased, nor can new ones be added. Otherwise the book of life would be meaningless. In addition, if everyone's name was in the book of life, then it wouldn't have needed to be written.

[JudgeNot]

So what you're saying then is that God is sometimes wrong

I absolutely never said that.  God has never, is never, and will never be wrong.

Our interpretations sometimes really stink - But it is impossible for God to be wrong.

Impossible.  THAT is a fact.

[Heidi]

I agree.

[Raphu]

Let me rephrase my question:

Can an individual that God chooses fail?

Didn't Jesus choose Judas, and weren't the chosen people of God cut off from the root of Abraham, temporarily for the sake of the Gentiles? Chosen can mean different things in scripture and has much to do with context. What appears to be failure can and will be victory with God. Because a chosen people failed to receive their own, salvation was given to the Gentiles.
God's sovereignty and omniscience are unquestionable, but we don't understand it, being ignorant of such power to stand inside of eternity. God's decisions about us or others may not appear as just sometimes, but with His power of omniscience, He knows and is just, as He proclaims Himself to be in the scriptures.

De 32:4  He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Isa 45:21  Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

Zep 3:5  The just LORD is in the midst thereof; he will not do iniquity: every morning doth he bring his judgment to light, he faileth not; but the unjust knoweth no shame.

[Heidi]

John, 17:12, "While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled." Jesus makes it clear that God is in control of our lives and that Judas was "doomed to destruction." Chosen means ONE thing ins scripture and that is the chosen people of God. You are right when you say that it sometimes looks like the chosen are not chosen, but that is from human understanding, not God's knowledge.