The communion of the Lord's supper...

[Brother Love]

The communion of the Lord's supper as revealed through the Apostle Paul in I Corinthians 11:23-26 is for members of the Body of Christ to observe "until He comes." There is no place in Scripture where the LORD'S SUPPER and WATER BAPTISM are linked together either as ordinances or as sacraments for the Church.


Brother Love

   <))><

[_Christopher_]

There is no place in Scripture where the LORD'S SUPPER and WATER BAPTISM are linked together either as ordinances or as sacraments for the Church.

Let's investigate that claim.

Here is one about Baptism...I have about 50 others if you care to listen to me for once.

1 Peter 3:21 - Peter expressly writes that baptism, corresponding to Noah's ark, is what actually saves us; it is not just symbolic or superficial like a bath. Also, the phrase "not as a removal of dirt from the body" is in reference to the Jewish ceremony of circumcision.

[_Christopher_]

And here is just one about the Eucharist:

John 6:55 - Jesus says "For My Flesh is food indeed, and My Blood is drink indeed." This phrase can only be understood as being responsive to those who do not believe that Jesus' flesh is food indeed, and His blood is drink indeed. Further, Jesus uses the word which is translated as "sarx." "Sarx" means flesh (not "soma" which means body).

[I_Believe]

Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God...(1Co 1:1)

For I received from the Lord that which also I delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night in which he was betrayed took bread. When he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, "Take, eat. This is my body, which is broken for you. Do this in memory of me." In the same way he also took the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink, in memory of me." For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. (1Co 11:23-26)

As they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks for it, and broke it. He gave to the disciples, and said, "Take, eat; this is my body." He took the cup, gave thanks, and gave to them, saying, "All of you drink it, for this is my blood of the new covenant, which is poured out for many for the remission of sins. But I tell you that I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on, until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's Kingdom." (Mat 26:26-29)

He said to them, "I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer, for I tell you, I will no longer by any means eat of it until it is fulfilled in the Kingdom of God." He received a cup, and when he had given thanks, he said, "Take this, and share it among yourselves, for I tell you, I will not drink at all again from the fruit of the vine, until the Kingdom of God comes." He took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and gave to them, saying, "This is my body which is given for you. Do this in memory of me." Likewise, he took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you. (Luk 22:15-20)

Most certainly, I tell you, he who believes in me has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, that anyone may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread which came down out of heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. Yes, the bread which I will give for the life of the world is my flesh." The Jews therefore contended with one another, saying, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" Jesus therefore said to them, "Most certainly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you don't have life in yourselves. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood lives in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father; so he who feeds on me, he will also live because of me. This is the bread which came down out of heaven-not as our fathers ate the manna, and died. He who eats this bread will live forever." (Joh 6:47-58)

Jesus therefore said to them, "Most certainly, I tell you, it wasn't Moses who gave you the bread out of heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread out of heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world." They said therefore to him, "Lord, always give us this bread." Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will not be hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. (Joh 6:32-35)

Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give me a drink,' you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water." The woman said to him, "Sir, you have nothing to draw with, and the well is deep. From where then have you that living water? Are you greater than our father, Jacob, who gave us the well, and drank of it himself, as did his children, and his livestock?" Jesus answered her, "Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again, but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never thirst again; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life." (Joh 4:10-14)

Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water." But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn't yet glorified. (Joh 7:37-39)

As they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had blessed, he broke it, and gave to them, and said, "Take, eat. This is my body." He took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave to them. They all drank of it. He said to them, "This is my blood of the new covenant, which is poured out for many. Most certainly I tell you, I will no more drink of the fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it anew in the Kingdom of God." (Mar 14:22-25)

The cup of blessing which we bless, isn't it a sharing of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, isn't it a sharing of the body of Christ? Because there is one loaf of bread, we, who are many, are one body; for we all partake of the one loaf of bread. Consider Israel according to the flesh. Don't those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar? What am I saying then? That a thing sacrificed to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? But I say that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons, and not to God, and I don't desire that you would have fellowship with demons. You can't both drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You can't both partake of the table of the Lord, and of the table of demons. (1Co 10:16-21)


Do we physically drink the Holy Spirit?
Did they actually drink the blood of Christ while He still sat with them?
Do people who sacrifice to demons actually drink out of the demon's cup?


Jesus says to "Do this in memory of me".

Paul gives us the simple truth of it "For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes."

In no way does this continue any sacrifice.  Christ finished it.  We proclaim it in memory of Him.  The rest comes from man's tradition.


To me, the very least of all saints, was this grace given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, and to make all men see what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God, who created all things through Jesus Christ; to the intent that now through the assembly the manifold wisdom of God might be made known to the principalities and the powers in the heavenly places, according to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord; in whom we have boldness and access in confidence through our faith in him. (Eph 3:8-12)


The mystery has been revealed in Christ.  The "Church" hides it again in man's traditions.

[BUTCHA]

The communion of the Lord's supper as revealed through the Apostle Paul in I Corinthians 11:23-26 is for members of the Body of Christ to observe "until He comes." There is no place in Scripture where the LORD'S SUPPER and WATER BAPTISM are linked together either as ordinances or as sacraments for the Church.


Brother Love

   <))><

now see what youve done

[Heidi]

Pertaining to communion, Jesus said; "Do this in remembrance of me." Pertaining to water baptism, Jesus said that we have to be baptized with water and the spirit to enter heaven. Those are the only 2 rituals he endorses and the only 2 I believe in.

[His_child]

Pertaining to communion, Jesus said; "Do this in remembrance of me." Pertaining to water baptism, Jesus said that we have to be baptized with water and the spirit to enter heaven. Those are the only 2 rituals he endorses and the only 2 I believe in.

I can't understand why a Christian wouldn't get baptized
However, stating that one must be baptized is baptismal regeneration and is based on works.
There is nothing you can do to earn your Salvation.

[Nickolai]

Pertaining to communion, Jesus said; "Do this in remembrance of me." Pertaining to water baptism, Jesus said that we have to be baptized with water and the spirit to enter heaven. Those are the only 2 rituals he endorses and the only 2 I believe in.

I can't understand why a Christian wouldn't get baptized
However, stating that one must be baptized is baptismal regeneration and is based on works.
There is nothing you can do to earn your Salvation.

The Early Church Fathers taught that water baptism was neccecary for salvation.  St. John Crysostom talked about it quite a bit.

And Who is saying works are done to earn salvation.  Works are needed for salvation, But they don't earn the salvation.  Does Faith earn you salvation? No, well then works don't either.  But they are both needed according to St. James.

[I_Believe]

For I say, through the grace that was given me, to every man who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think reasonably, as God has apportioned to each person a measure of faith. (Rom 12:3)

for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, that no one would boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared before that we would walk in them. (Eph 2:8-10)


God apportioned the faith and prepared the good works.


For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." Now to him who works, the reward is not counted as grace, but as debt. But to him who doesn't work, but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness. Even as David also pronounces blessing on the man to whom God counts righteousness apart from works, "Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whom the Lord will by no means charge with sin. (Rom 4:3-8)

Yet, looking to the promise of God, he didn't waver through unbelief, but grew strong through faith, giving glory to God, and being fully assured that what he had promised, he was able also to perform. Therefore it also was "reckoned to him for righteousness." Now it was not written that it was accounted to him for his sake alone, but for our sake also, to whom it will be accounted, who believe in him who raised Jesus, our Lord, from the dead, who was delivered up for our trespasses, and was raised for our justification. (Rom 4:20-25)

If you instruct the brothers of these things, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, nourished in the words of the faith, and of the good doctrine which you have followed. But refuse profane and old wives' fables. Exercise yourself toward godliness. For bodily exercise has some value, but godliness has value in all things, having the promise of the life which is now, and of that which is to come.
(1Ti 4:6-8)

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?... So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works... Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"--and he was called a friend of God. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone... For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead. (Jam 2:14-26)


Works strengthen, perfect and demonstrate our faith through "good works, which God prepared before... that we would walk in them"


But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. (Gal 5:22-23)

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. (Phi 2:12-13)

"You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. Nor do people light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven. (Mat 5:14-16)


Don't misunderstand the verse from James 2 "Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? "  If we look at Romans 4 we see this "Now to him who works, the reward is not counted as grace, but as debt. But to him who doesn't work, but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness."

If Abraham's works justified him then "the reward is not counted as grace, but as debt".  We know from Ephisians that salvation is a gift and not a debt payment.  So works can not be a source of salvation but must be a result of faith/belief in God's promises.


For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (Eph 2:8-9)

[blainefabin]

The communion of the Lord's supper as revealed through the Apostle Paul in I Corinthians 11:23-26 is for members of the Body of Christ to observe "until He comes." There is no place in Scripture where the LORD'S SUPPER and WATER BAPTISM are linked together either as ordinances or as sacraments for the Church.


Brother Love

   <))><

what is the difference between an ordinance and a sacrament?

hi all i'm new to this board and this is my first post. please forgive me if jumping in too late on this thread but it was the first to catch my eye.

mike

[blainefabin]

Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God...(1Co 1:1)

For I received from the Lord that which also I delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night in which he was betrayed took bread. When he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, "Take, eat. This is my body, which is broken for you. Do this in memory of me." In the same way he also took the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink, in memory of me." For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. (1Co 11:23-26)

As they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks for it, and broke it. He gave to the disciples, and said, "Take, eat; this is my body." He took the cup, gave thanks, and gave to them, saying, "All of you drink it, for this is my blood of the new covenant, which is poured out for many for the remission of sins. But I tell you that I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on, until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's Kingdom." (Mat 26:26-29)

He said to them, "I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer, for I tell you, I will no longer by any means eat of it until it is fulfilled in the Kingdom of God." He received a cup, and when he had given thanks, he said, "Take this, and share it among yourselves, for I tell you, I will not drink at all again from the fruit of the vine, until the Kingdom of God comes." He took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and gave to them, saying, "This is my body which is given for you. Do this in memory of me." Likewise, he took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you. (Luk 22:15-20)

Most certainly, I tell you, he who believes in me has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, that anyone may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread which came down out of heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. Yes, the bread which I will give for the life of the world is my flesh." The Jews therefore contended with one another, saying, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" Jesus therefore said to them, "Most certainly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you don't have life in yourselves. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood lives in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father; so he who feeds on me, he will also live because of me. This is the bread which came down out of heaven-not as our fathers ate the manna, and died. He who eats this bread will live forever." (Joh 6:47-58)

Jesus therefore said to them, "Most certainly, I tell you, it wasn't Moses who gave you the bread out of heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread out of heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world." They said therefore to him, "Lord, always give us this bread." Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will not be hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. (Joh 6:32-35)

Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give me a drink,' you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water." The woman said to him, "Sir, you have nothing to draw with, and the well is deep. From where then have you that living water? Are you greater than our father, Jacob, who gave us the well, and drank of it himself, as did his children, and his livestock?" Jesus answered her, "Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again, but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never thirst again; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life." (Joh 4:10-14)

Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water." But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn't yet glorified. (Joh 7:37-39)

As they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had blessed, he broke it, and gave to them, and said, "Take, eat. This is my body." He took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave to them. They all drank of it. He said to them, "This is my blood of the new covenant, which is poured out for many. Most certainly I tell you, I will no more drink of the fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it anew in the Kingdom of God." (Mar 14:22-25)

The cup of blessing which we bless, isn't it a sharing of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, isn't it a sharing of the body of Christ? Because there is one loaf of bread, we, who are many, are one body; for we all partake of the one loaf of bread. Consider Israel according to the flesh. Don't those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar? What am I saying then? That a thing sacrificed to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? But I say that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons, and not to God, and I don't desire that you would have fellowship with demons. You can't both drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You can't both partake of the table of the Lord, and of the table of demons. (1Co 10:16-21)

are all these verses talking about the same thing? or are they all talking about different things.

Do we physically drink the Holy Spirit?

does the verse imply physically drinking? i don't think so.

Did they actually drink the blood of Christ while He still sat with them?

if you take the bible literally then yes, if not then yes or no.

Do people who sacrifice to demons actually drink out of the demon's cup?

apparently they do. i myself have never sacrificed to a demon so i am not familiar with any of their teachings.

Jesus says to "Do this in memory of me".

Paul gives us the simple truth of it "For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes."

i have to say that this really is a separate issue from whether or not it is flesh and blood or mere symbol.  either would still do it in memory of him... don't you think?

In no way does this continue any sacrifice.  Christ finished it.  We proclaim it in memory of Him.  The rest comes from man's tradition.[/i]

all of christianity is nothing but traditions.... again to believe it is flesh and blood or not are both positions based on tradition. the old churches had a tradition of believing it was real, the modern churches have a tradition of believing it is not. i would suggest finding writings from those closer to that culture to see how they interpreted such verses.

To me, the very least of all saints, was this grace given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, and to make all men see what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God, who created all things through Jesus Christ; to the intent that now through the assembly the manifold wisdom of God might be made known to the principalities and the powers in the heavenly places, according to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord; in whom we have boldness and access in confidence through our faith in him. (Eph 3:8-12)


The mystery has been revealed in Christ.  The "Church" hides it again in man's traditions.

how exactly does the church hide it in their traditions. if it is a tradition to proclaim the mystery of communion then it seems that the tradition is the very thing proclaiming that mystery, ?? as a matter of fact if it weren't for the traditions there would be no reason to attack those that believe such things because it really would be hidden.

mike

[ollie]

There is no place in Scripture where the LORD'S SUPPER and WATER BAPTISM are linked together either as ordinances or as sacraments for the Church.

Let's investigate that claim.

Here is one about Baptism...I have about 50 others if you care to listen to me for once.

1 Peter 3:21 - Peter expressly writes that baptism, corresponding to Noah's ark, is what actually saves us; it is not just symbolic or superficial like a bath. Also, the phrase "not as a removal of dirt from the body" is in reference to the Jewish ceremony of circumcision.

Peter writes that it is water that saved the eight souls. The water seperated the righteous on the ark from the unrighteous on the earth and the destruction of the same. They were saved. The like figure even baptism seperates us from the sinful world and saves us from its destruction.

ollie

[Heidi]

Christ does indeed live inside of us. There are many verses that demonstrate this, but I'll use Gal. 2:20, "...for it is no longer I who lives, but Christ who lives in me." As born again Christians, we have eaten the flesh and drunk the blood of Christ through His reusrrection in the form of the Holy Spirit. That is why He had to die before people could receive it. The only thing He could do to give power to His disciple before He returned to our Father is blow on them in order for them to receive His spirit. Unfortunately, the catholic church has taken that to mean that those upon whom he blew gave them power instead of the Holy Spirit that was given to people individually since pentecost.

Jesus instructed us to drink wine and bread in REMEMBRANCE of the entrance of His body into ours so that,"on that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you."

[Nickolai]

Christ does indeed live inside of us. There are many verses that demonstrate this, but I'll use Gal. 2:20, "...for it is no longer I who lives, but Christ who lives in me." As born again Christians, we have eaten the flesh and drunk the blood of Christ through His reusrrection in the form of the Holy Spirit. That is why He had to die before people could receive it. The only thing He could do to give power to His disciple before He returned to our Father is blow on them in order for them to receive His spirit. Unfortunately, the catholic church has taken that to mean that those upon whom he blew gave them power instead of the Holy Spirit that was given to people individually since pentecost.

Jesus instructed us to drink wine and bread in REMEMBRANCE of the entrance of His body into ours so that,"on that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you."

However He said this IS my body and this IS my blood.  Later on he says my body is food indeed, and my blood is Drink indeed.  Juets from these two verses I can see iteral communion.  I don't have to make up some crazy doctrine of Jesus meaning sybolically and the Holy Spirit is Christ inside of us.  Even though the Holy Spirit is NOT the word.  they are two seperate persons.  You don't seem to be following Christ's words Heidi.  But rather, making your own man-made tradition.  

[I_Believe]

how exactly does the church hide it in their traditions. if it is a tradition to proclaim the mystery of communion then it seems that the tradition is the very thing proclaiming that mystery, ?? as a matter of fact if it weren't for the traditions there would be no reason to attack those that believe such things because it really would be hidden.

Paul said the mystery was revealed through the apostle's teaching.  The "Church" hides it behind man's traditions.  The church (that is His body) bears witness to the revealed mystery of Christ.

You are the light of the world. A city located on a hill can't be hidden. Neither do you light a lamp, and put it under a measuring basket, but on a stand; and it shines to all who are in the house. Even so, let your light shine before men; that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven. (Mat 5:14-16)