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Our Lord Jesus Christ loves you.
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Author Topic: lost sheep  (Read 2140 times)
darby
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« on: May 04, 2004, 05:17:06 PM »

I'm sure this is a very common question, but what about the salvation of people who lived before Jesus' birth, or the isolated souls who never got to hear the good news?  I'm willing to bet that there were/are many who were loving and good people, who out of poor circumstance, were left ignorant of Jesus.  Are they going to be damned for eternity?  Won't we all be judged according to our deeds?    
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aw
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« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2004, 06:10:43 PM »

Good questions. Scrirpturally, it would appear that only JEWS were saved before Christ came; ie., after the Covenant fiven to them by God through Moses. Before the LAW, sin was not imputed to man because where there is no law there is no imputation of sin.

I have yet to hear a satisfactory definition of what a Jew had to do to be saved. They had the sacrifices and the blood of BULLS AND GOATS was accepted as an ATONEMENT for sin. Supposedly, it looked FORWARD to the blood of Christ.

It would seem belief in MESSIAH is all God required in the synoptic gospels and early on in Acts. It was REPENT and be baptized with the repentance "Changing their minds about who He was."

Universalism is a false doctrine and, without getting into specifics, there will be NO SECOND CHANCES.

Believer's works are JUDGED only for REWARDS and NEVER CONDEMNATION. The wicked are judged as to degrees of punishment and never salvation.

aw
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Heidi
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« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2004, 06:25:48 PM »

In Rev. it says that all the dead (chosen) will be raised first. Some theologians believe that when Jesus descended into hell He was preaching in Abraham's bosom, which is to the past chosen who never heard His words. i don't know what i believe about this.
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aw
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« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2004, 11:46:33 PM »

Good also. I think He took the O.T. saints home with Him or sent them.

aw
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Raphu
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« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2004, 06:26:05 PM »

All people are saved by their faith in God. Righteousness was imputed to Abraham for His faith in God, but even Abraham is saved by Jesus Christ who undoubtedly he rejoiced upon the revelation of Him. Whatever obedience is done because of faith in God will be judged according to the love and mercy of God and He will make all things right according to His perfect will.
I wonder about how much our perception of eternal events is distorted by living in time, as we do look through a glass darkly and tend to think in linear time-line terms. When we go to the Lord, I understand that we will know as we are known, and be like Him. Those that have know God and loved Him will probably know Jesus with no problems as they have trusted Him as Father and Spirit before eternity. IMHO

Romans 4:1 Abraham was, humanly speaking, the founder of our Jewish nation. What were his experiences concerning this question of being saved by faith? 2 Was it because of his good deeds that God accepted him? If so, he would have had something to boast about. But from God's point of view Abraham had no basis at all for pride. 3 For the Scriptures tell us, "Abraham believed God, so God declared him to be righteous." 4 When people work, their wages are not a gift. Workers earn what they receive. 5 But people are declared righteous because of their faith, not because of their work. 6 King David spoke of this, describing the happiness of an undeserving sinner who is declared to be righteous: 7 "Oh, what joy for those whose disobedience is forgiven,whose sins are put out of sight. 8 Yes, what joy for thosewhose sin is no longer counted against them by the Lord." 9 Now then, is this blessing only for the Jews, or is it for Gentiles, too? Well, what about Abraham? We have been saying he was declared righteous by God because of his faith.
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Hosea 11:10  They shall walk after the LORD: he shall roar like a lion: when he shall roar, then the children shall tremble from the west.
Shylynne
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« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2004, 07:22:53 PM »

It is GOD who searcheth and judgeth the  hearts of man.
Exo 33:19  And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
To answer your question one would have to presume to sit upon the judgement seat of God.
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“Christianity isn't all that complicated … it's Jesus.”   — Joni Eareckson Tada

There is no force on earth as powerful as one human soul set ablaze with the Spirit of God -  Shylynne
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« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2004, 12:56:04 AM »

Jews are saved through the law of Moses.

Jews are under a different covenent than that of the Gentile (Yeshua).

Which is why once the age of the Gentile is complete, the age of the Jew will begin.

As far as one who has never heard the word, that is up for debate. Of course, if you are reading this, you have heard the word and are accountable  Grin

G-d Bless
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Brother Love
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« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2004, 06:18:29 AM »

Jews are saved through the law of Moses.

Jews are under a different covenent than that of the Gentile (Yeshua).

Which is why once the age of the Gentile is complete, the age of the Jew will begin.

As far as one who has never heard the word, that is up for debate. Of course, if you are reading this, you have heard the word and are accountable  Grin

G-d Bless

Right On ya-son, Amen

Your friend and brother

  Brother Love Smiley

     <Smiley))><
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THINGS THAT DIFFER By C.R. Stam
Read it on line for "FREE"

http://www.geocities.com/protestantscot/ttd/ttd_chap1.html

<Smiley))><
darby
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« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2004, 01:45:11 PM »

Weren't Gentiles "grafted" onto the tree of Abraham by Jesus?  If Gentiles are now a part of the same tree as the Jew, how can there be a distinction between the two and their "ages"?

And also, doesn't the word "gentile" mean "far from God"?  I believe that this term is no longer applicable these days.  Things have certainly changed since the days of pagan rituals and polytheism.    

Ya-son, if Christian "gentiles" are spiritual sons of Abraham, what is the distinction between Jew and "gentile"?  Race?  Blood?    
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Raphu
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« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2004, 04:25:12 AM »

Weren't Gentiles "grafted" onto the tree of Abraham by Jesus?  If Gentiles are now a part of the same tree as the Jew, how can there be a distinction between the two and their "ages"?

And also, doesn't the word "gentile" mean "far from God"?  I believe that this term is no longer applicable these days.  Things have certainly changed since the days of pagan rituals and polytheism.    

Ya-son, if Christian "gentiles" are spiritual sons of Abraham, what is the distinction between Jew and "gentile"?  Race?  Blood?    
How many times have we sinned and been "far from God"? God can graft back in the natural branches that have been cut off and can cut off the the grafted in branches again, as He has said by the inspired scriptures in Romans 11:17-24.
This comes back to the question, "Who is Israel?" and why we need to know. God's covenant promise to Abraham was that his seed would be like the stars in the sky, "multitudes of Gentiles" - hamon goyim, and that the fulness of Gentiles would come in through the house of Ephraim (Israel) when the two houses [Judah and Israel (Ephraim)] were split and then went into captivity. Ephraim's 10 tribes never came back but were absorbed into the Gentile nations and became "loammi" - not my people (Hosea 1:9). The house of Judah came back and preserved the law and returned to Jerusalem to be destroyed again in 70AD and to return again in 1948. Ephraim became as "sons of the living God" and was hidden to be reborn as having "firstborn" rights as the Church. Both houses and all the companions of both houses will reunite and be saved as God's chosen. So technically a Jew is any person who is one of the heart.(Romans 2:28-29) Ephraim is the Church, the firstborn of God and the fulness of Gentiles spoken of throughout the Bible.

Hosea 1:9  Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.
10  Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.


Genesis 17:5  Neither shall thy name <08034> any more be called <07121> (8735) Abram <087>, but thy name <08034> shall be Abraham <085>; for a father <01> of many <01995> nations <01471> have I made thee <05414> (8804).

Here is the Strongs of many nations in vs. five:

01995 Nwmh hamown haw-mone’ or Nmh hamon (#Eze 5:7) haw-mone’

from 01993; TWOT-505a; n m

AV-multitude 62, noise 4, tumult 4, abundance 3, many 3, store 2, company 1, multiplied 1, riches 1, rumbling 1, sounding 1; 83

1) (Qal) murmur, roar, crowd, abundance, tumult, sound
1a) sound, murmur, rush, roar
1b) tumult, confusion
1c) crowd, multitude
1d) great number, abundance
1e) abundance, wealth
*******
01471 ywg gowy go’-ee rarely (shortened) yg goy go’-ee

apparently from the same root as 01465; TWOT-326e

AV-nation 374, heathen 143, Gentiles 30, people 11; 558

n m
1) nation, people
1a) nation, people
1a1) usually of non-Hebrew people
1a2) of descendants of Abraham
1a3) of Israel
1b) of swarm of locusts, other animals (fig.)

n pr m 1c) Goyim? =" nations"

Studying the covenant in Genesis 17:1-6 I found that a "hamon goyim"(many nations), in verse four is a promise to make Abraham a father of "multitudes of Gentiles", specifically, a people who would cause a tumultuous commotion, or great noise (about Abraham's God), throughout the world. Their heirs would be exceedingly fruitful. This has been done through Ephraim and the Church which is to reunite with the remnant of the house of Judah before the end comes.

Ephraim and the ten lost tribes accomplished this and became the fulness of Gentiles spoken of in Romans 11:25-26 - "For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery - so that you will not be wise in your own estimation - a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in: and thus all Israel will be saved...." Notice that ALL Israel will be saved in the end, which does go back to Ezekial 37 and the uniting of the two sticks or dead branches that had been cut off but now to be brought to life by His Spirit. Both houses and their companions saved.

Ezekial 37:16  Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:17  And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

Romans 2:28 (LIV) For you are not real Jews just because you were born of Jewish parents or because you have gone through the Jewish initiation ceremony of circumcision.29 No, a real Jew is anyone whose heart is right with God. For God is not actually looking for for those who cut their bodies in actual body circumcision, but He is looking for those with changed hearts and minds. Whoever has that kind of change in his life will get praise from God, even if not from you.

Jesus spoke of other "sheep which are not of this fold; I must bring them in also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd." And "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (John 10:16; Matthew 15:24)

Matthew 15:24  But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

John 10:16  And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

That link I gave for the book by Batya Wooten goes into detail about who Israel is and why we need to know, as I posted earlier. She is a Messianic jew.
http://www.aarons-advocates.org/BACONT.html
God bless.



« Last Edit: May 09, 2004, 06:09:00 PM by Raphu » Logged

Hosea 11:10  They shall walk after the LORD: he shall roar like a lion: when he shall roar, then the children shall tremble from the west.
darby
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« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2004, 01:20:12 AM »

Jews are saved through the law of Moses.

Jews are under a different covenent than that of the Gentile (Yeshua).

Which is why once the age of the Gentile is complete, the age of the Jew will begin.

As far as one who has never heard the word, that is up for debate. Of course, if you are reading this, you have heard the word and are accountable  Grin

G-d Bless

Ya son, I still would like to know what you mean by Gentile and Jew and their ages.  

Raphu, if being Jewish is a matter of the heart, then what is elemental in this heartfeltness?
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Raphu
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« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2004, 09:55:04 AM »


Raphu, if being Jewish is a matter of the heart, then what is elemental in this heartfeltness?
Please elaborate on your comment "elemental heartfeltness". I'm not sure I understand what your asking?
Do you see from my earlier post that God chose more than just the one tribe of Israel, Judah, being the one from which that name Jew comes from, and that the promise was for all people related to Abraham and those that chose to sojourn with his seed? Jacob in blessing the his son which became these tribes blessed each with specific words, and Ephraim and Judah had special priviledges from this blessing - Ephraims being the double portion of the firstborn, even though adopted and not the oldest son of Joseph.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2004, 10:10:50 AM by Raphu » Logged

Hosea 11:10  They shall walk after the LORD: he shall roar like a lion: when he shall roar, then the children shall tremble from the west.
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« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2004, 11:42:18 AM »

All right.  If.. technically a Jew is any person who is one of the heart, what does it mean to be "one of the heart"?  (and) What are the fundamental differences between the heart of the Jew and the heart of a pious non-Jew?  
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Raphu
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« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2004, 05:44:54 PM »

All right.  If.. technically a Jew is any person who is one of the heart, what does it mean to be "one of the heart"?  (and) What are the fundamental differences between the heart of the Jew and the heart of a pious non-Jew?  

Ah, I see that I didn't post this verse. Perhaps posting it will help. The heart generally is speaking about the spiritual man whose spirit and mind is set on God - to please Him.
Physical man is born of flesh. Spiritual man is born of God. Being born a Jew by flesh does not make a person one of God's chosen, but being born again, spiritually does.
Reading the whole chapter where these verses come from will better help put them into context and the problem Paul was talking about.
Perhaps reading the verses from two paraphrases will help, also:

Romans 2:28 (LIV) For you are not real Jews just because you were born of Jewish parents or because you have gone through the Jewish initiation ceremony of circumcision.
29 No, a real Jew is anyone whose heart is right with God. For God is not actually looking for for those who cut their bodies in actual body circumcision, but He is looking for those with changed hearts and minds. Whoever has that kind of change in his life will get praise from God, even if not from you.

Romans 2:28 (AMP) For he is not a [real] Jew who is only one outwardly {and} publicly, nor is [true] circumcision something external and physical. 29  But he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and [true] circumcision is of the heart, a spiritual and not a literal [matter]. His praise is not from men but from God.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2004, 05:46:19 PM by Raphu » Logged

Hosea 11:10  They shall walk after the LORD: he shall roar like a lion: when he shall roar, then the children shall tremble from the west.
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« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2004, 09:26:23 AM »

I agree.  That's why people shouldn't confuse today's Israel with yesteryear's.  
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