Papal Address Confirming Evolution

[Knox]

I have actually thought about that, Knox, but i don't think it would do any good. I've been trying that with the Lutheran church but they aren't willing to discuss it. They think because they're all experts that they must be right. That mindset is extremely difficult to penetrate. The Catholic church is a lot bigger than the Lutheran church and the pope is considered the Holy Father by the congregation.  How humble do you think they will be? Teachers of the law are human beings like the rest of us. Unfortunately, it is they who do not think so. That is, of course, why Jesus was so angry at them.

However, I might be led to try to discuss it in the hopes that there will be a few who are interested in seeing another viewpoint. It petrifies me to do this, precisely because of comments about how arrogant it is for a person like me to DARE question an "authority" on Christ. Never mind that those authorities are human like the rest of us and capable of misinterpreting scripture, just like me. They couldn't possibly be wrong. Who are the arrogant ones?

Well Heidi we're not talking about "The Catholic Church" here. These people on those boards are individual believers, not "Teachers Of The Law".

You said that you were on a search for truth. It's clear that you are only interested in presenting your 'viewpoint'. How you have arrived at your point of view is not clear, since you think that discussing Catholicism with Catholics themselves wouldn't do 'any good'.

Personally I think you are being grossly unfair in making the unwarranted assumption that these people would be less than honest with you.

[Heidi]

My fear of talking to the catholic church is based on the reaction I have gotten by talking to the Lutheran church. They are going to believe what they believe and i am going to believe what i believe. That has shown itself to be true even on this forum. So why did you suggest I talk to them? What good will it do? The answers i have gotten in this forum about the catholic church have only re-enforced my beliefs about it. They DO worship the pope. When addressed by the rich man as "good sir" Jesus said, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone." Yet the pope has the audactity to be addressed as the Holy Father. Who does he think he is, pronouncing himself as better than Jesus? If someone called me holy, it would make me sick. I'm not holy and according to Christ, neither is anyone else, including HIMSELF! It obviously doesn't make the pope sick because he hasn't changed that practice.  He obviously sees himself as holy.

The Catholic church is not going to change its mind or it already would have. It obviously endorses its beliefs. I do not. I used to, so I have already seen their viewpoint. After looking at both viewpoints, i have come to my own. If they have seen my viewpoint, rejected it, and retained their own, then they obviously do endorse their beliefs. There probably isn't any point in discussing this further. I am just going to retain the right to respectfully disagree with the viewpoint of the Catholic curch. If people want to judge and berate me for it, that's their choice.

[Tibby]

Tibby,
What if it's true that the catholics worhip the virgin Mary and the Pope? I think that no matter how I say it, you're going to take offense at it. Even if i sugar- coated the way i said it, the very IDEA that I think the catholics worship the pope and the virgin Mary is what angers you. Is that my fault? I just want to know what's TRUE more than i care about who's right or wrong. That's why I search all things. How are we going to find out the truth without questioning? Truth-seekers are willing to entertain ALL sides of an issue, not just what they want to believe. I used to think that the Catholic church was ruled by the holy Spirit. But now i have my doubts. How am I going to alleviate these doubts without questioning? You have said that you look at both sides of the Catholic church. Then why do you attack us for doing the same thing? Jesus was VERY bold, and sometimes harsh the way He spoke. Those who were convicted were angry at His words. Those who wanted to learn, opened their ears. The important thing is the willingness to get to the truth. I'm sorry if you were offended, I certainly have not meant to offend you. Churches are simply institutions. They are not us. Attacking a church doesn't mean that we are being attacked.

The lies about Catholics worshiping Mary and the pope are not what anger me. The arrogance you display by implying you know more about what Catholics believe then Catholics do, THAT is what angers me. You are not looking for truth, you aren’t even willign to listen to our side. Did you ever think that maybe listening to a few Saved Catholics will help you find this truth you are looking for? Clearly not, you have done nothing but told us, in essence, we don’t know what we believe, and you do. Good job, you’re a run-of-the-mill anti-Catholic. THAT is the truth. You are trying to hide your prejudges, even from your self. When ever we correct you, you tell us we are to close-minded to listen to you. Hey, guess what, this is a double edged sword, from our point of view YOU are to close-minded to here what we are saying.

As for "teachers of the law", Jesus was the angriest at the teachers of the law precisely because it is their RESPONSIBILITY to make sure they are passing along Christ's meaning. It sounds like you think, Ebia, that just because somebody studies in a sminary and is ordained by a church,   he is always right. That is idol worship. I'm glad that Luther had the courage to go up against these "teachers of the law" druing the reformation. Otherwise, these "teachers of the law" would still be passing on non-scriptural teachings. You can put your faith in these teachers of the law. I prefer to put my faith in Christ.

If I sound angry, it's because I am angry at the teachers of the law. There is so much corruption and self deception going on in them in the name of Christ. I expect that all of us are into self-decpetion and and some kind of corruption but when somebody sets himself up as an "expert" on Christianity, he owes it to himself and the people he's placed in his hands to make sure that he is passing on the right message. That is one reason why I think Christ is harsher toward them more than humble sinners.

Now you are comparing your self to Jesus? Don’t you think his perspective was a little bit more enlightened then yours, seeing how he is GOD and all? Yeah, I’m glad Luther left the church, too. One less Drunken, anti-Semitic for the Catholic Church to deal with.

My fear of talking to the catholic church is based on the reaction I have gotten by talking to the Lutheran church. They are going to believe what they believe and i am going to believe what i believe. That has shown itself to be true even on this forum. So why did you suggest I talk to them? What good will it do? The answers i have gotten in this forum about the catholic church have only re-enforced my beliefs about it. They DO worship the pope. When addressed by the rich man as "good sir" Jesus said, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone." Yet the pope has the audactity to be addressed as the Holy Father. Who does he think he is, pronouncing himself as better than Jesus? If someone called me holy, it would make me sick. I'm not holy and according to Christ, neither is anyone else, including HIMSELF! It obviously doesn't make the pope sick because he hasn't changed that practice.  He obviously sees himself as holy.

Maybe the reaction is due to the fact that you state lies, and try to pass it off as fact, and act like you know more about our doctrine then we do! Good sir is a term use all the time, not just to address the pope, but to address many people. It was ever popular in the Mid-evil and Renascence times. Come you, you watch movie, you’ve been to Ren fairs, you taken European History in College, Good Sir is a common title for someone of high social rank, or just someone you respect in those times. On top I have, I’ve never heard the Pope called “Good Sir.” How have what we said proven we worship the Pope? If someone said the Pastor of your church sells Child porn online, through the Churches computers, you would defend him, would you not? You do not worship him, but someone is attacking his good name, you are not just going to let it slide are you? You are going to correct that person. Same thing with the Pope, all we did was correct falsehoods about him. Catholics see the Pope as like the Pastor of the whole Church world wide. And how is “Holy Father” so wrong? It is just a title! Why do you protestants make such a big deal out of a simple thing like a name? What’s in a name? Do you think God cares about semantic at all? Do you think God cares about what you say to the letter? Or does he look at the spirit of what you say? Words are words, I would be the same person if my parents named me Jack, John, Joe, or Ashley!  Christians unite would be the same forum, even if the title was “Unite all Christians.” Word, without action are nothing, right? So then why are makings such a big deal out of words? Out of NOTHING?

The Catholic church is not going to change its mind or it already would have. It obviously endorses its beliefs. I do not. I used to, so I have already seen their viewpoint. After looking at both viewpoints, i have come to my own. If they have seen my viewpoint, rejected it, and retained their own, then they obviously do endorse their beliefs. There probably isn't any point in discussing this further. I am just going to retain the right to respectfully disagree with the viewpoint of the Catholic curch. If people want to judge and berate me for it, that's their choice.

That is good, just keep in mind you said “RESPECTFULLY disagree.” You have  yet to show ANY amount of respect for the Catholic Church, or any remorse for your ruthless attacks. We are not judging or berating you, we are trying very hard to clear up a few misconceptions you have. But you have rejected our viewpoints, and retained your own, even though we are in the church, and you are just on the outside looking in, without any clue of what makes us tick.

[Saved_4ever]

Tell me what's biblical about lent?
It's a time of preparation for Easter, and a time to remember Christs' temptation in the wilderness, apart from a host of other things.  But more to the point what's unbiblical about lent?  The onus is on you to demostrate that something is unbiblical.

Sigh ok, catholics deprive themselves of something material in preperation for easter?  That's a pretty thin one and ask most catholics why they have to do it.

Why do some catholics still feel thay can't eat meat on Friday?(this is also glaringly opposed to scripture 1Tim4:1-5)
Its a form of fasting, I believe, which is not what Paul is refering to there.

Apparently you have no idea what fasting is then.

Why do they still claim priests are not to marry? (refference same scripture) and I don't want to hear about the random ones that allow them to marry.  If it weren't "church doctrine" they wouldn't have to have made it publially known that they were reconsidering that issue after the huge sex scandal.
It's not a doctrine.  It is a discipline.  I suggest you read up on the difference, which is huge.

Ya sure whatever you say about that.  Perhaps you need to see what is taught a little more.

There are three simple questions of things contrary to scripture.  (I guess those minds weren't so special after all.)They aren't because you haven't understood them.

It looks like you don't understand them.

You can't show me anywhere in scripture where it shows there being a central authority other than Jesus Christ.St Paul springs to mind.

That's a shame since Paul never claimed to be an authority over the church.  In fact many times he says he is but nothing.  Maybe you should read it a little more or perhaps get a clue on who the authority over the church is.  To even think you would claim that Paul was head over Christ is appalling.

[Heidi]

Tibby, you are in a lot of denial about the Catholic church and any further pointing it out is futile. The catholic church is notorious for raising up humans as higher than Christ. I do not respect the Catholic church. When i say i respectfully disagree, i am trying to agree to disagree. You, however, still want to get mad at those for disagreeing with your viewpoint. I'm not mad at you. I just don't think we are going to agree with each other. I've already told you I used to agree with your side, so I have seen your viewpoint. I do not believe that you can see our viewpoint.

[ebia]

Tell me what's biblical about lent?
It's a time of preparation for Easter, and a time to remember Christs' temptation in the wilderness, apart from a host of other things.  But more to the point what's unbiblical about lent?  The onus is on you to demostrate that something is unbiblical.

Sigh ok, catholics deprive themselves of something material in preperation for easter?  That's a pretty thin one and ask most catholics why they have to do it.

Why is that thin?  Look, if you're determined not to understand, why ask the question?

Why do some catholics still feel thay can't eat meat on Friday?(this is also glaringly opposed to scripture 1Tim4:1-5)
Its a form of fasting, I believe, which is not what Paul is refering to there.

Apparently you have no idea what fasting is then.

Still determined not to understand the different language, eh?

Why do they still claim priests are not to marry? (refference same scripture) and I don't want to hear about the random ones that allow them to marry.  If it weren't "church doctrine" they wouldn't have to have made it publially known that they were reconsidering that issue after the huge sex scandal.
It's not a doctrine.  It is a discipline.  I suggest you read up on the difference, which is huge.

Ya sure whatever you say about that.  Perhaps you need to see what is taught a little more.

Have you looked up the difference?  No, I thought not.  You assume you know what you are talking about and you clearly haven't a clue.

You can't show me anywhere in scripture where it shows there being a central authority other than Jesus Christ.St Paul springs to mind.

That's a shame since Paul never claimed to be an authority over the church.  In fact many times he says he is but nothing.  Maybe you should read it a little more or perhaps get a clue on who the authority over the church is.  To even think you would claim that Paul was head over Christ is appalling.

That's not what I said, and you know it.

[ebia]

I've already told you I used to agree with your side, so I have seen your viewpoint. I do not believe that you can see our viewpoint.

When you're viewpoint consists mainly of attacking a church for:
a.  stuff you haven't understood
and
b.  stuff that other churches are equally guilty of

Its hardly surprising that those who are members of or sympathetic to that church get a bit annoyed.

[Tibby]

Once again, Ebia, well said. Heidi, if you are set on not listening to our view point, don't accuse us of not listening to yours. I don’t know what you call it, but in the Catholic Church, we call that Hypocrisy. We hear what you are saying, but what you are saying isn’t true. It would be like if a Frenchman where to say “Americans are all dirty hippies who smoke weed.” It isn’t that we would not listen to him, it is just that what he has to say it totally false. Maybe there are a few Americans who are like that, but the vast majority aren’t.

[Mr. 5020]

Once again, Ebia, well said. Heidi, if you are set on not listening to our view point, don't accuse us of not listening to yours. I don’t know what you call it, but in the Catholic Church, we call that Hypocrisy. We hear what you are saying, but what you are saying isn’t true. It would be like if a Frenchman where to say “Americans are all dirty hippies who smoke weed.” It isn’t that we would not listen to him, it is just that what he has to say it totally false. Maybe there are a few Americans who are like that, but the vast majority aren’t.

I may be going out on a limb here, but I would have to say that the "vast majority" of Catholics don't know why they are Catholics.

[Heidi]

Okay, Tibby, you're right. The pope is humble, the virgin Mary is not prayed to and neither are the saints. The church has no problems.  That seems to be the only thing that will satisfy you. Can we drop it now?

[Mr. 5020]

Okay, Tibby, you're right. The pope is humble, the virgin Mary is not prayed to and neither are the saints. The church has no problems.  That seems to be the only thing that will satisfy you. Can we drop it now?

Hehehe.  Hey, Tibby, if you believe that, as the old song says:

"I got some oceanside property in Arizona,
From my front porch you can see the sea.
I got some oceanside property in Arizona,
and if you act now I'll throw the golden gate in free."

[Tibby]

If you want to drop it, just stop posting in this thread.

As for 5020, I think most Catholics do know why they are Catholics. I know of a church full of Catholics who do, at least. How many Catholics do you know, 5020?

[Knox]

Hehehe.  Hey, Tibby, if you believe that, as the old song says:

"I got some oceanside property in Arizona,
From my front porch you can see the sea.
I got some oceanside property in Arizona,
and if you act now I'll throw the golden gate in free."

LOL! Yep you're right. Somehow I don't think this thread has seen the last of Heidi!

[Heidi]

Your denial is once again showing itself. I said that I used to AGREE with your viewpoint which means that I have listened and understood your viewpoint. You, however, cannot understand ours. If you have to distort my words to make a point, then  I no longer take your words seriously.

[nChrist]

Oklahoma Howdy to All,

Just two cents worth - maybe not even that. First, I would be the first to admit that my personal beliefs have gotten in the way of fellowship with God's children. I'm guilty and I've asked God for forgiveness and guidance.

First, it should be a given that Almighty God is the core and focus of our lives. We are all sensitive when something appears to attack the core of our being, our beliefs in Almighty God.

Second, it should also be a given that nobody has the one and only true interpretation of God's Holy Word or the only correct method to worship HIM.

Man has an untold number of names for denominations and doctrines in Christianity. Two churches might even bear the same name and have disagreement in doctrine or manner of worship. In fact, the above is true even in large groups of churches where there has been an attempt to standardize doctrine and try to create harmony among members in all of their churches. It would also be true that no two pastors or ministers would be in complete agreement.

I've been asking myself some questions recently on this subject. I've only met a few people in my entire life who actually believed they had the ONLY, ONE TRUE DOCTRINE and everyone else who professed Christ in any other manner were on their way to hell. There is obviously an infinite number of various doctrines, creeds, types of baptism, types of communion, etc., etc. If two brothers or two sisters attended churches with different names, should they have any fellowship? Maybe they even agree they will spend eternity together in heaven, but they disagree on a point of doctrine. I would say they should have fellowship and realize their man named denomination or church will not be recognized in heaven. If you are part of THE CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST, nothing else really matters and there should be no bar to fellowship between members of this CHURCH.

This is something I have been praying about and simply wanted to share it. Let me repeat that I will be the first to plead guilty in letting a point of doctrine effect my fellowship with another brother or sister in Christ.

In Christ,
Tom