Paul2's Pre-Tribulation Rapture pages

[musicllover]

You laugh at me but you actually believe this is past history? Well then explain it. Put it all together because it makes no sense at all the way you've explained it so far.

Sure  ,,all you need to do is quote a passage from the Apocalypse that mentions antichrist.

    First I made it clear that "Antichrist" is a title along with many others such as: Beast out of the sea, Little horn, Man of Sin, Lawless one ect. ect.

    Using your standard "the Lamb", "the Messiah", "The Son of God" must not refer to Jesus.

In the mean time we'll just pretend that Hebrews doesnt say Christ ended the sacrfices.

But Im not in a hurry.

    The animal sacrifices are over Hitch, but Jews don't believe in Jesus or the New Testament do they? Jews in Israel want to rebuild the Temple. Every year they attempt to set the corner stone and every year they are prevented. Israel will rebuild their temple and restart the sacrifices even though they shouldn't and the result is "Antichrist" or "the beast out of the sea" if you perfer, will stop the sacrifice during the middle of the 70th week of Daniel.

    I've played with you long enough, your wasting my time. Start your own thread and say whatever you like on it.

    I've tried to be nice (as nice as I can be) but you like to play games. You won't answer a question that exposes your lack of a real answer but instead take cheap shots and ignore what you don't want to answer.

    Start your own thread and you can explain all about Revelation and what it means to you. Its way easier to attack someone elses writings than to try to explain your view with all the details needed to complete the "picture."

    Let the readers decide who has made sense and who has not. You've made up your "sealed" mind so what more can I say?

    I'll go back to what I was doing before you started interupting me. For the record, its not that I can't debate you, but you won't answer any question you don't have an answer to. You won't explain any Scriptures that prove your wrong, you just hit,run, duck and weaver, which is good for boxing but not debating.

                                                            Paul2

   

            Like minded Paul2, let Hitch begin his own thread.

  But I would like to address something, concering Apostalic support of the NT to the OT.  John wrote Rev?  How much more of an apostle or NT teaching does one need?  If they need one at all?    
      Using the NT to support what is taught in the OT seems backwards to me, but I understand and don't disagree that having NT teaching of the OT very helpful. But claiming that  none of the Apostles spoke about the end times nullifies the teachins of the OT is wrong (Daniel in particular). What do all the Apostles as a group do, why are they the chosen ones? Think about it, they walked with  Jesus, and seen his death, reseruction. They are the future Church, they taught as witnesses about Jesus life, ministry, his cruxifiction, building the church up and the bringing in the CHurch age of today. Jesus did give them OT teachings of the tribulation time in Matt. 24.  Later Paul about this in Thes.  (although not an apostle was a big writer of the NT) brings more understanding for us, we have those teachings and later on the vision of John that is the NT support for Daniel.
   Johns vision was written around A.D.95 or 96....several years after Christ's cruxifiction. The NT support or Apostlic support of Danial isn't available until long after Jesus death, and most of the apostles as well. You can't have apostle teaching when John hasn't had his vision yet. Each Apostle teaches, and writes from his view, Matt. give the Jews prespective, Luke gives a Greek/gentile view, Mark gives Roman views, each picked as apostle for that reason......John gives us Revlatioin as his contributions to the NT. Jerusalem has fallen a second time, the church is scatter because of the persecution as was prophecied, fullfilling yet another prophecy of the OT......now is the time that John himself persicuted, under arrest, has the vision to give to the scatterd churches. Those letters are carried thru out Asia as a warning  and to tell each chruch what to do to clean up there acts.
      This debate has been on going every since, in the 2ed and 3erd Century, with Justin Matyr, Shepherd of Hemas, Melito, Irenaeus, the Muratorian, Cannon, Tertullian, CLement of Alexandria,Origen.,
      The OT is a history book, we can use it as a check and balance to the prophecies. Jesus, to Alexander the Great, to NOW. It is by NO means over with, or with out use for today.  
Rev. is written for the Church. We are the Church. To pick and choose books is to take away from the word, we are warned against that.

Jesus is Lord, Savior and King,
Come Lord Jesus Come
Blessing to all who read, let all who have an ear hear what the Spirit says to the church......

[Reba]

Rev 11:3  And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Rev 11:4  These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


Rev 1:1  The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Rev 1:2  Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

Rev 1:3  Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Paul or Musicllover  which of the scriptures posted above do you 'take ' literaly?

[Paul2]

Rev 11:3  And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

    The verse above is to be taken literally, the 2 witnesses testify for 1,260 days, or 3 1/2 years or 42 months during the first half of Daniel's 70th week.

Rev 11:4  These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

    I take this literally although symbolism is used. When symbolism is used in the Bible, scripture should be searched for the meaning of the symbol used.


Zechariah 4:11  "Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
   12: And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
   13: And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
   14: Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the LORD of the whole earth.

   Zechariah states that the two Olive trees represent 2 anointed ones, that stand by the lord of the whole earth. I dare say they were anointed to be the 2 WITNESSES of Revelation 11!

Rev 1:1  The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

   I take this literally, execpt I don't place a time limit on "shortly". The prophecy was activated when it was given. John was given the key to understanding the prophecy in Revelation 1:19 "Write the things which thou hast seen,(past tense, the vision of chapter 1) and the things which are, (present tense, things pretaining to the Church) and the things which shall be hereafter;(future tense, things that will take place after the Church age).

    Heres a bonus for you:

Revelation 1:20 "The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

    In the above verse there are seven candlesticks but in Revelation 11:4 "These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth."

   In Revelation 11:4 there are now only 2 candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. WHY? Because at the time of Rev.11 and the 2 witnesses, the Church has been Raptured to heaven, and the 2 witnesses now are God's representatives.

Rev 1:2  Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

     I take this literally.
 

Rev 1:3  Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

   I take this literally as well, the time IS at hand for the Churches. The time was at hand when it was written and the time is at hand now. We are still in "the things which are" from Rev. 1:19. After the church age ends and the church is Raptured, "the things which shall be hereafter" will begin and the time will be at hand then as well.

Paul or Musicllover  which of the scriptures posted above do you 'take ' literaly?

     I take all your verses literally. When the Bible uses symbolism, the Bible should provide the meaning of the symbolism as Zechariah does.

     You don't follow the outline for Revelation given in Rev. 1:19 so of course your going to get lost. Jesus gave John the format in writing the Book and the same format is needed to understand the Book.

   Both you and Hitch seem to get stumped by the words: Shortly, soon, the time is at hand... you don't follow the outline given for understanding. To understand Revelation you need a working knowledge of the entire Bible. The Old Testament prophecies must fit into Revelation. God is revealing the details that the prophets of the Old Testament wrote about. The Bible interprets itself. When symbolism is used the Bible provides the interpretation.

    You seem to think Paul spelled out the mysteries he spoke of plainly, he didn't. The answers are there but will not be found by glancing at scripture. You must become a detective to solve a mystery. Lazy people always seek an easy answer, but that answer won't solve the mysteries of God hidden in the Scriptures, even from the Old Testament prophets.

    Your method of interpretation requires you to ignore plain truth in the reading of Scripture. To you Jerusalem has completed the 70th week, when to anyone without a theory to protect, they can plainly see that Jerusalem is not sinless, not righteous, and has not completed what Daniel 9:24 requires.

    You and Hitch should team up and explain the book of Revelation to us so we can understand it from your point of view. Problem is that you won't because theres to many things you can't explain without contradicting your own theory. Thats why you guys specialize in the "hit and run" tactics. Its easier to attack my interpretation than to present your own interpretation. Good luck explaining the 7 seals, 7 trumpets, 7 vials and fitting them neatly into history, don't forget Rev. chapters 13, 17, 19, 20. I'd love to see you try to explain these things in detail.

    You don't agree with me and I don't agree with you. I'm not going to change your mind and you've got tons of explaining to do to even attempt to change my mind. Funny thing is if you tried to present your case in detail you'd probably realize your wrong, and you wouldn't want that would you. You have to ask: Does the truth matter? well does it?

                                                               Paul2

[musicllover]

Rev 11:3  And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Rev 11:4  These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


Rev 1:1  The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Rev 1:2  Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

Rev 1:3  Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Paul or Musicllover  which of the scriptures posted above do you 'take ' literaly?

Reba,
        ALL of them, no lamp stands don't speak but check out verses of the OT that give understanding to what the lamp stands are. Acctually the 11:3 has just told you the lamp stand are the witnesses....but for more proof,go back and read Zech. 4: 2-14.

Rev 1;1 thru 4......the beginning of the vision that John has. Are you asking cause you want to know if I believe that they are real visions or that this is a symbol for something else? How John had this vision, how do you sleep at night on your back or your side, I won't have any idea. Either way you sleep, and this is a real vision.....
blessings

[Reba]

Reba,
        ALL of them, no lamp stands don't speak but check out verses of the OT that give understanding to what the lamp stands are. Acctually the 11:3 has just told you the lamp stand are the witnesses....but for more proof,go back and read Zech. 4: 2-14.

Rev 1;1 thru 4......the beginning of the vision that John has. Are you asking cause you want to know if I believe that they are real visions or that this is a symbol for something else? How John had this vision, how do you sleep at night on your back or your side, I won't have any idea. Either way you sleep, and this is a real vision.....
blessings

Musicllover,

I am asking to understand, what it is you believe.

You have stated you 'take' them all literally. I will accept you at your word.  

I understand Revelation to be a 'real vision'. I also get a feeling that maybe you dont think i think it is/was real. (getting to 'know' folks via forums can be difficult)

Understanding the Revelation to be real and taking the scriptures literal as you do  what is your understanding of the  time frame given to John within the first 3 verses?

[musicllover]

Reba,
       No I asked cause the first 3 verses aren't full of any symbols.
      A time frame for Rev 1:1-3. Written around A.D. 95, when was he released?
 These 3 verses, would imply to me that these verses were written as, the vision came, John under the influence of the Holy Spirit  (better than Jack Daniels ). Did John set in a trance for hours, or slept had this dream or possibly a series of visions.One should do some hisorical studies, we know he was being punished, Romans had put him on Patmos, when?, The  churches are scattered thru out Asia, so how long does that take? It could be he wrote each letter to the churches at diff times while exiled. He does seem to put and ending to each letter.  I would have to do alot of reading. Maybe he would write one, and a year, month later God would give him another.

off to bed finally my eye are sleepy,
(can you tell I have insomina sometiems)
blessings

[Reba]

Musicllover,

 ME too i am pooped as well.  

 let me try this   and see if we connect

Rev 1:1  The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Rev 1:2  Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

Rev 1:3  Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.



In verses 1  and 3  John is given by GOD a time frame.   I have bolded the words to let yoiu know what i am refuring too.

[musicllover]

Reba,
         Yes I've seen that, but again "what" was at hand, John wrote the vision to the churches. How long it took him to write these 7 letters? The time is NOW to stop and correct the falsehood that the 7 churches have allowed after the scattering of Christian nearly 60 some year earlier. Christ crux. in 33 AD.....to the time of these letter 95 AD. There are  things that need to fall into place the vials.....and that the judgements don't give a time frame. I understand what you are leading up too. That the judgements have come already. But the fact remains there is no historical evedince in my understanding to support that. That would mean that we now live in the Millenium.
      I wonder maybe we need to talk about what Millenium is? Cause its my understanding that it will be a time of great peace and harmony. I'll do more studing about that. Cause in my own life this ISN"T any millenium. That would go into my testimony and I'll save that for some time later.  
  SO tribulations is a literally 7 years.....this is the gap that people don't like to think about. 1 week is worth 7 years in Daniel with out symbols or anything days are numbers for us. The fall of Jursalem twice, is a bench mark each one being told about before hand. 7 weeks or 49 years, the next time period is 62 weeks or 434 years. Has Isreal been restored yet? The restoration of Isreal, has been prophecied about but hasn't occured yet. They are tryng with this "road map" to peace and the like. When peaces come to the Jews, be ever more careful to watch, and know your scriptures. NO one knows the day or the hour, the gap as some are calling it is now for the time of the Gentiles, because the Jews rejected Jesus (Rom 11:11). This is the chruch age, and when it comes to a halt is when the rapture has occured. That one will be easy enough to see for those who have an ear so to speak. Daniel says that there has been determinded 70 weeks for the Jews. adding up using the bench marks, there has only been 69 weeks of prophecies fullfill. The Gentils are more or less at the mercy of the Jews and the time frame of when they get things right with God, and each other.
talk later,  

[musicllover]

Millennium— a time in which Christ will reign and holiness will fill the earth for a thousand years.
Rev 20  
Jesus has come (second coming) wars with Satan at Armageddon,
Binds satan up for a 1000 yrs, cast into a bottomless pit.
Throws the anti christ and false prophet alive into the lake of fire, and those who have taken the mark of the beast.

       Let me say that if this is the Millennium reign then I fail to see any good or peace, I fail to see Jesus ruling, personally I have suffered such losses that I can say with out a doubt that this is not the Millennial reign that I understood. From the court systems to my own family dying of genetic defect that only affects us.  

        It says about this time is Isa.2:4.... beat the swords in to plowshares,
  their  spears into pruning hooks: Nations shall not life up sword against nation, Neither shall they learn war anymore.  The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, The leopard shall lie down with the young goat,....... They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain.

        The Millennium reign will be a time of peace and harmony between the nations,
 Even animals will live at peace with each other. Defiantly not, with my second son in Iraq, my foster son stuck in a home thru the decision of a misguided judge, and we battle to get him back, besides my cat and dog still fight, that cat won't let the poor dog in the house with out slapping him on the nose a few times....lol. Then you have the devil bound for a 1000 years so he can not deceive anyone during the millennium.  How many false religion, cults still exist? And as much as I think it would be sooo cool to walk up to peter, or Paul, or Moses even and say HI, they aren't running around here either..(.The resurrected of tribulation saints and old testaments Saints... Dan 12:1, Rev. 20:4).

         IF this were the time leading up to the Millennium then what would it be like, lets say a year before the beginning of the 1000 yr Millennium, then the anit christ would be running loose, forcing the mark of the beast (taken literally). The economy would be in totally control of the anti christ, there would be NO churches allowed, but only worship of him and the false prophet.
 
             We can say and agree that Jesus Christ is the one who will reign during the Millennium. That alone is enough for me to say we defiantly are not in the 1000 yr, not even near it yet.      

[Reba]

Joh 7:2  Now the Jews' feast of tabernacles was at hand  .

Sa 9:8  And the servant answered Saul again, and said, Behold, I have here   at hand the fourth part of a shekel of silver: that will I give to the man of God, to tell us our way.

Gen 27:41  And Esau hated Jacob because of the blessing wherewith his father blessed him: and Esau said in his heart, The days of mourning for my father are at hand  ; then will I slay my brother Jacob.

(Joh 19:42)  There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation day; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand.

Mat 26:46  Rise, let us be going: behold, he is at hand. a that doth betray me.


Gen 41:32  And for that the dream was doubled unto Pharaoh twice; it is because the thing is established by God, and God will shortly bring it to pass.

1Co 4:19  But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord will, and will know, not the speech of them which are puffed up, but the power.

Phi 2:19  But I trust in the Lord Jesus to send Timotheus shortly unto you, that I also may be of good comfort, when I know your state.


Using  ‘strongs’ the word ‘shortly’ and the phrase ‘at hand’ have the same meaning as is common to  our thinking today.   I find it interesting how man struggles to force scripture to fit our thoughts.  We believe the scriptures to be GODS word yet  we say  HE really didn’t mean shortly when HE said  Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

As to the word antichrist. . . often we can tell who wrote what, be it a novel or text book, or song ,by the notes or words used. We find like things with in writers ideals.  The little books of John were penned via the same writer as the Revelation yet he does not use the word antichrist in the book of Revelation. Again man knows more than GOD and finds subtle ways to alter GODS word.

Over  the 4 or so years i have had this computer i have learned much. Phrases i had grownup “knowing” were scriptural were not even in the word! (ie; heavenly language).
This has placed me on a track that says  loudly  WHAT DOES THE WORD SAY?  Revelation 1;1 says shortly and Revelation 1;3 says at hand. The usage here does not read as a  metaphor, nor a figure of speech.

Jesus is my KING   Kings have a kingdom, HE reigns. And yet i have many troubles many broken hearts. HE is the healer of the broken HE is the builder of the Kingdom HE said Matt12:28  But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.  We agree HE cast out devils?

[Hitch]

 Music says;

Daniel with out symbols or anything days are numbers for us. The fall of Jursalem twice, is a bench mark each one being told about before hand. 7 weeks or 49 years, the next time period is 62 weeks or 434 years. Has Isreal been restored yet? The restoration of Isreal, has been prophecied about but hasn't occured yet.



Dans is famous for  living through the test of the 'lion's den'. This took place in Babylon, during  the exile.  Between Dan's time and the first century Jerusalem  and the temple had been rebuilt, twice. He said  as though reality were an issue here...

Take care

Hitch

[musicllover]

At hand,     Said,  engys....adj Greek
meaning   Near, close, nigh, near to, ready
The question should be asked what is God time table of AT HAND?
What does bibical History shown us,                       
Lets take take this phrase "at hand' literal, I  honestly do, cause when things begin to move, its only a 7 year run...... but I also know that God time table isn't mine, his beginning isn't ours either. AND for another I don't' see any of the judgements coming, anti christ ect ect ect......(I don't understand this part of the thread really, cause Hitch thought if funny  laughed about talking lamp stands.......but let play with the idea for a moment, we got to give God a watch with  our time table? I do find that curious,
 
Anyway
I did  a word search of "{at hand}" using my NIV...... so it's a little diff.....Reba shared several already, I found a few more.....      
Not only is this phrase found in Rev 1;1 At beginning of the vision to John, but at the end too. So NOW what is it over, time is gone, earth is gone, NEW heaven WHAT?

 Rev 22:6 Then he said to me, These words are faithful and true. And the Lord God of the Holy prophets sent his angel to show his servant the things which must {shortly} take place.........almost word for word from the Chap 1. This would be saying that as John was seeing the vision God was performing all the judgements as John was sat in the Heavenly theater. But that doesn't work either cause John knows it a vision.

IF Rev were wrote Chronologically for us today we'd been in the new Heaven now and I don't think anyone believes that. If not in the new heaven then in the millennium......and that hasn't been proven either. (See previous and end of this post)
Well that doesn't work so then
 I am using the NIV
I checked out God useage of "at hand" and found his time table much diff than our own.
Luke 21:8
         And he said, Take heed that you not be deceived, for many will come in my name saying I am he,  the time has {drawn near}. Therefore do not go after them. 9) But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified  for {{these things must come to pass first}}, but the end will not come immediately. 10) Then he said to them, Nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom. 11)And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences, and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven.  12) But{{ before all these things}}, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prison. You will be brought before kings and rulers for my names sake. ....................
(Skipping to 20) But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolations is near.........(possibly a reference to the abomination of desolation)
 
What have you seen in todays world that might fulfill these passages. What great signs from Heaven has there been? What kind of persicutions are taken place of Christian, ( OH but then there can't be any persicutions taken place if we are in the Millenium right. So this must be talking about the scattering of the chruches and that time of persecuting Christians.....NO that don't fit time historical either. Because this would be the time of a new Heaven.. As some say HMMMMM

 (Skipping to 24) And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be lead away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles {until the times} of the Gentiles are fulfilled........
Still more  verses in Luke 21: 28) Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption {draws near}.
   ... 36) Watch therefore and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will {come to pass}, and to stand before the Son of Man.
 
This is probably the hardest one to explain away "until the time of the Gentiles are fulfilled" this is what I refer to as the church age. Or as some call it the "GAP" Scholars say this is the era of Israel's captivity 586 BC to the Babylon King it ends with her restoration  mentioned in Rev 20:1-6. So who knows the time, surely if this were the millennium you have a date of when Isreal was restored.. Give history, dates place that kind of thing.

For another reference to the phrase  "at hand" found in the scriptures.........
 In Det 32:35 Vengeance is mine and recompense:(pay back in kind) Their foot shall slip in due time: for the day of their calamity is {at hand}, and the things to come hasten upon them 36) for the Lord will judge His people and have compassion on his servants, when He see that their power is gone, and there is no one remaining, bond or free.......

This is Moses speaking to Isreal just before he goes up on Mt Nebo and God says he can't cross over the Jordan but will see the promise land.  This is written around 1405 BC.......the fall of Isreal. until 70 AD. Thats a LONG "at hand" So do we give God a clock and tell him he's late, or do I need a new clock.
time for bed.

Reba, I don't want to cut you off, but I am not going to let Hitch trash God word, or get into it with him, its getting dirty, I would rather be known by good fruits,,,,,in all that you do keep the peace.... SO I'll not post again, pm me if you like. What I think I will be doing for a while is checking up on this millimium stuff. By knowing where you come from will help me understand some of this. Cuause I honestly can't understand ANYone thinging this is the 1000 yr reign. I grew up in an abusive home, sexual and physical........this isn't the Millinium reign. But I am curious how you justify all the neg in the world today. How does it fit in with scripture and the like. Like I said just private messanger me if you want to continue in a friendly polite manner.

blessings,

[geralduk]

it seems to me that the main stumbling block to any right understanding of the rapture is a WRONG understanding of the BRIDE of CHRIST.

Because it is TAKEN FOR GRANTED that ALL who are HIS will be in the BRIDE then it is ASSUMED that the what is called the pre trib-rapture is WRONG.
For if you hold to the first then the SECOND .....CANNOT be true!
For the scriptures say so(and they do!)-(it seems).

There is a church in the book of revaltion that "in its own eyes has need of NOTHING"
But in Gods is 'WRETCHED POOR AND BLIND"!

Now a SOBER question.
Is or HOW can THAT church be FIT to be PART of the BRIDE!?
If she is BLIND ("no VISION") POOR "IN God"
and WRETCHED.
"MY people perish for they lack VISION(blind) for they have rejeCted KNOWLEDGE"
If you look at the LAST KING of ISREAL he was BLIND.
If you look at the LAST JUDGE of ISREAL he was BLIND as well.
It would apear that the LAST CHURCH will be blind as well!


How can this be?

"as in the days of LOT so shal it be in the LAST days"
LOT was BLIND to the hour in which he lived and "what God was about to do"
Why?
Because he WALKED by SIGHT and not by FAITH.
Whereas ABRAHAM ....WALKED by faith.
At the beginning they were as RICH IN GOD as the other in goods.
and it was because the land could not contain them BOTH that they split.
But at the END  ABRAHAM was as RICH in Goods as He was in the beginning.
But LOT lost ALL save the saving of his own soul.
is it not written of some who are COUNTED RIGHTOUS but who will "suffer loss as through fire"?
Lot was COUNTED rightous for hsi "rightous soul was vexed....."
"As in the days of NOAH so shall it be in the LAST DAYS"
THERE too if we COUNTED his days we would find another 'ENOCH"
Who "WALKED with God and was not" later on in scripture it says he was "TRANSLATED"(RAPTURED in other words)
So we have again TWO men who thoughy BOTH counted rightous yet ONE whos WALK was PERFECT.


The BRIDE of CHRIST will be "a HELP MEET FOR HIM"(PERFECT)

Today we have the idea that to be BORNagain gives us an AUTOMATIC right to be in the BRIDE of Christ.
To be BORNagain makes us QUALIFIED to ENTER THE RACE and to "win the prize"@
The children of ISREAL were SAVED from BONDAGE to Egypt and her pharoah.
They are but types for the WORLD and the DEVIL.
BUT OUR SALVATION consists in MORE thaN BEING 'SAVED'   FROM bondage.
But also to ENTER INTO the promised land.
and to be "more than conquerers"
WHAT is MORE than a CONQUERER?
But he who REMOVES the inhabitants and LAWS of the taken land and sets up OTHER LAWS AND GOVERNERSHIP.
and SEETLLES THERE!
(SEE WILLIAM THE CONQUERER -1066)
That which the devil took by deciet is to be TAKEN in RIGHTOUSNESS.
AND THE GATES of hell shall not prevail against her.

They were "aprehended for" to enter that which was PROMISED.
but they had to @APREHEND IT"@!
Which they FAILED to do because "of unbelief'!
Yet if you study the passage you will finds that it was NOT that they believed NOTHING but that they belived the WRONG MESSAGE!
which was?
You will find that ALL 12 SAW the SAME things.
But THE 10 and the 2 saw it in DIFFERENT LIGHTS!
tHE 10 saw them with the NATURAL man.
and FORGOT the last 40 DAYS.
and saw GIANTS.ONLY
tHE 2 SAW THEM in thje LIGHT\ of what GOD HAD done.
WHO IT WAS WHO WAS WITH THEM and WHAT had been PROMISED for the future.
and so saw them in their TRUE PERSPECTIVE as "GRASSHOPPERS"!
WHICH message are you believeing?

The one that says "we have need of nothing'?

or the one thats ays we NEED ALL that God has PROMISED.

The story of the 5 wise and 5 foollish virgins.
Is NOT  a story for the world but for the CHURCH!

For a CAREFULL study of the story will reveal that in ALL matters SAVE ONE.
THEY were the SAME.
Some JUMP to the conclusion it was they were nto saved.
Not so.
For ALL thier LAMPS were LIT.
 THE ONLY DIFFERENCE  was in thier EXPECTATIONS!
and their LACK of PREPAREDENESS.
tHE FOOLISHNESS was to BELEIEVE that having the LAMPS lit AND FULL OF OIL was ENOUGH and the VESSELS need not be FILLED.
tHE 5 wise NOT ONLY HAD thier LAMPS lit but ALSO had thier VESSELS FILLED AS WELL!
MANY say that being BORNagain is ENOUGH.
That we 'have' the HOLY SPIRIT.
But consider this?
A BABY who is BORN has LIFE ;yes?
But does not ALSO need to BE FILLED and that continually with the BREATH OF LIFE that it may CONTINUALLY LIVE?
fOR if we consider CHRIST "in whom was LIFE" itself.
yet was He not ALSO to be FILLED with the HOLY SPIRIT before He could or did any WORK of God?
Is it not written "as the FATHER SENT ME SO SEND I YOU"?
If then He NEEDED to be FILLED how much the MORE do we.
When we are BORNagain we 'have' the HOLY SPIRIT.
When we are FILLED HE 'has' US!

AND note when they were barred from entering it was to the MARRIAGE and was "I do not know you"
NOT at the JUDGEMENT "I NEVER knew you"

BE YE ALSO READY then for you know not.......... and "be ye FILLED with the HOLY SPIRIT"

[Paul2]

     The church of Laodicea is vomited out of the body of Christ, it could not be digested into the body becasue of false doctrine. Notice Jesus outside knocking on the door of this Church. Its not part of the body of Christ, it sickens his stomach and is vomited out into the tribulation at the Rapture and becomes the Harlot of Rev.17

[Paul2]

      I thought it was time to "resurrect" this thread again. For those of you who are new or visiting there are many worth while debates and evidence for Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church. If your interested go back to the first page and read through the posts (especially Paul2's   ).

     People are always refering to Matthew and the Rapture, but Matthew is focused on the Jews and the Second Coming of Christ ,not the Rapture.

     Well what about good old Dr. Luke the Gentile? Luke was written by a Gentile, Luke, to Gentiles, Greeks, with messages for Gentiles (The Church).

Luke 21:29: And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree (nation of Israel), and all the trees; (the nations)
   30: When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
   31: So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
   32: Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
   33: Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
   34: And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
   35: For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
   36: Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

     Verse 35 above makes it clear that the so called "Snare" would come on ALL (every person on planet earth) that dwells on the face of the Whole Earth. There is nobody spared, if your on planet earth at this time your snared. But wait! Theres an escape for those accounted worthy from the wrath that shall come to pass.

      Now lets analize the information we have been given:

      We are told clearly that at the time of wrath, everybody dwelling on the face of the whole earth would be snared.

      We are then told clearly, that there is an escape for those accounted worthy.

      The "escape" must be from the face of the whole earth because those who dwell on the face of the whole earth are snared.

      Who are those accounted worthy? Those who have placed their faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, The Church.

      The "escape" is the Rapture of the Church but you must remember that this was spoken by Jesus before his death and the Church even began. The Rapture mystery is hidden here but will be revealed by the Aposle Paul for us more clearly.

                                         The Pre-Trib. View by Paul2