Needed, (by some), Additions to the Good News of Christ.

[Petro]

michael,

The source is your pope quotes..

Who else would make outlandish claims like this..

Petro

[michael_legna]

michael,

The source is your pope quotes..

Who else would make outlandish claims like this..

Petro

No the source of the quote (which is only claimed to be from a Pope) was an anti-Catholic website, which is also the "who else would make outlandish claims".

[ollie]

" Man has added many things and ordinances to the word of God and His son Jesus Christ.

Why, when Christ is all sufficient to salvation from sin and to life in God??"


Has this been answered?

[michael_legna]

Petro,

Once again I do all the leg work for you.

Here is every reference within the Catechism of the word Pope.  Find anything in it if you can that says the Pope claims to be God.

10 It is therefore no surprise that catechesis in the Church has again attracted attention in the wake of the Second Vatican Council, which Pope Paul Vl considered the great catechism of modern times. The General Catechetical Directory (1971) the sessions of the Synod of Bishops devoted to evangelization (1974) and catechesis (1977), the apostolic exhortations Evangelii nuntiandi (1975) and Catechesi tradendae (1979), attest to this. The Extraordinary Synod of Bishops in 1985 asked "that a catechism or compendium of all Catholic doctrine regarding both faith and morals be composed"13 The Holy Father, Pope John Paul II, made the Synod's wish his own, acknowledging that "this desire wholly corresponds to a real need of the universal Church and of the particular Churches."14 He set in motion everything needed to carry out the Synod Fathers' wish.

100 The task of interpreting the Word of God authentically has been entrusted solely to the Magisterium of the Church, that is, to the Pope and to the bishops in communion with him.

192 Through the centuries many professions or symbols of faith have been articulated in response to the needs of the different eras: the creeds of the different apostolic and ancient Churches,8 e.g., the Quicumque, also called the Athanasian Creed;9 the professions of faith of certain Councils, such as Toledo, Lateran, Lyons, Trent;10 or the symbols of certain Popes, e.g., the Fides Damasi11 or the Credo of the People of God of Paul VI.12

247 The affirmation of the filioque does not appear in the Creed confessed in 381 at Constantinople. But Pope St. Leo I, following an ancient Latin and Alexandrian tradition, had already confessed it dogmatically in 447,76 even before Rome, in 451 at the Council of Chalcedon, came to recognize and receive the Symbol of 381. The use of this formula in the Creed was gradually admitted into the Latin liturgy (between the eighth and eleventh centuries). The introduction of the filioque into the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed by the Latin liturgy constitutes moreover, even today, a point of disagreement with the Orthodox Churches.

491 Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, "full of grace" through God,134 was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854:
The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.135

869 The Church is apostolic. She is built on a lasting foundation: "the twelve apostles of the Lamb" (Rev 21:14). She is indestructible (cf. Mt 16:18). She is upheld infallibly in the truth: Christ governs her through Peter and the other apostles, who are present in their successors, the Pope and the college of bishops.

881 The Lord made Simon alone, whom he named Peter, the "rock" of his Church. He gave him the keys of his Church and instituted him shepherd of the whole flock.400 "The office of binding and loosing which was given to Peter was also assigned to the college of apostles united to its head."401 This pastoral office of Peter and the other apostles belongs to the Church's very foundation and is continued by the bishops under the primacy of the Pope.

882 The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter's successor, "is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful."402 "For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered."403

895 "The power which they exercise personally in the name of Christ, is proper, ordinary, and immediate, although its exercise is ultimately controlled by the supreme authority of the Church."427 But the bishops should not be thought of as vicars of the Pope. His ordinary and immediate authority over the whole Church does not annul, but on the contrary confirms and defends that of the bishops. Their authority must be exercised in communion with the whole Church under the guidance of the Pope.

899 The initiative of lay Christians is necessary especially when the matter involves discovering or inventing the means for permeating social, political, and economic realities with the demands of Christian doctrine and life. This initiative is a normal element of the life of the Church:
Lay believers are in the front line of Church life; for them the Church is the animating principle of human society. Therefore, they in particular ought to have an ever-clearer consciousness not only of belonging to the Church, but of being the Church, that is to say, the community of the faithful on earth under the leadership of the Pope, the common Head, and of the bishops in communion with him. They are the Church.432

End of Part 1

[michael_legna]

Here are the rest of the references.

937 The Pope enjoys, by divine institution, "supreme, full, immediate, and universal power in the care of souls" (CD 2).

939 Helped by the priests, their co-workers, and by the deacons, the bishops have the duty of authentically teaching the faith, celebrating divine worship, above all the Eucharist, and guiding their Churches as true pastors. Their responsibility also includes concern for all the Churches, with and under the Pope.

1354 In the anamnesis that follows, the Church calls to mind the Passion, resurrection, and glorious return of Christ Jesus; she presents to the Father the offering of his Son which reconciles us with him.
In the intercessions, the Church indicates that the Eucharist is celebrated in communion with the whole Church in heaven and on earth, the living and the dead, and in communion with the pastors of the Church, the Pope, the diocesan bishop, his presbyterium and his deacons, and all the bishops of the whole world together with their Churches.

1369 The whole Church is united with the offering and intercession of Christ. Since he has the ministry of Peter in the Church, the Pope is associated with every celebration of the Eucharist, wherein he is named as the sign and servant of the unity of the universal Church. The bishop of the place is always responsible for the Eucharist, even when a priest presides; the bishop's name is mentioned to signify his presidency over the particular Church, in the midst of his presbyterium and with the assistance of deacons. The community intercedes also for all ministers who, for it and with it, offer the Eucharistic sacrifice:
Let only that Eucharist be regarded as legitimate, which is celebrated under [the presidency of] the bishop or him to whom he has entrusted it.189
Through the ministry of priests the spiritual sacrifice of the faithful is completed in union with the sacrifice of Christ the only Mediator, which in the Eucharist is offered through the priests' hands in the name of the whole Church in an unbloody and sacramental manner until the Lord himself comes.190

1462 Forgiveness of sins brings reconciliation with God, but also with the Church. Since ancient times the bishop, visible head of a particular Church, has thus rightfully been considered to be the one who principally has the power and ministry of reconciliation: he is the moderator of the penitential discipline.66 Priests, his collaborators, exercise it to the extent that they have received the commission either from their bishop (or religious superior) or the Pope, according to the law of the Church.67

1463 Certain particularly grave sins incur excommunication, the most severe ecclesiastical penalty, which impedes the reception of the sacraments and the exercise of certain ecclesiastical acts, and for which absolution consequently cannot be granted, according to canon law, except by the Pope, the bishop of the place or priests authorized by them. In danger of death any priest, even if deprived of faculties for hearing confessions, can absolve from every sin and excommunication.69

1594 The bishop receives the fullness of the sacrament of Holy Orders, which integrates him into the episcopal college and makes him the visible head of the particular Church entrusted to him. As successors of the apostles and members of the college, the bishops share in the apostolic responsibility and mission of the whole Church under the authority of the Pope, successor of St. Peter.

1900 The duty of obedience requires all to give due honor to authority and to treat those who are charged to exercise it with respect, and, insofar as it is deserved, with gratitude and good-will.
Pope St. Clement of Rome provides the Church's most ancient prayer for political authorities:18 "Grant to them, Lord, health, peace, concord, and stability, so that they may exercise without offense the sovereignty that you have given them. Master, heavenly King of the ages, you give glory, honor, and power over the things of earth to the sons of men. Direct, Lord, their counsel, following what is pleasing and acceptable in your sight, so that by exercising with devotion and in peace and gentleness the power that you have given to them, they may find favor with you."19

2034 The Roman Pontiff and the bishops are "authentic teachers, that is, teachers endowed with the authority of Christ, who preach the faith to the people entrusted to them, the faith to be believed and put into practice."76 The ordinary and universal Magisterium of the Pope and the bishops in communion with him teach the faithful the truth to believe, the charity to practice, the beatitude to hope for.


So you see - nothing in the official teachings of the Church declare the Pope to be God.  Once again you show yourself to have been misled by those who know nothing of the Church and yet have been taught to hate it.

End of Part 2

[ollie]

Petro,

Once again I do all the leg work for you.

Here is every reference within the Catechism of the word Pope.  Find anything in it if you can that says the Pope claims to be God.

10 It is therefore no surprise that catechesis in the Church has again attracted attention in the wake of the Second Vatican Council, which Pope Paul Vl considered the great catechism of modern times. The General Catechetical Directory (1971) the sessions of the Synod of Bishops devoted to evangelization (1974) and catechesis (1977), the apostolic exhortations Evangelii nuntiandi (1975) and Catechesi tradendae (1979), attest to this. The Extraordinary Synod of Bishops in 1985 asked "that a catechism or compendium of all Catholic doctrine regarding both faith and morals be composed"13 The Holy Father, Pope John Paul II, made the Synod's wish his own, acknowledging that "this desire wholly corresponds to a real need of the universal Church and of the particular Churches."14 He set in motion everything needed to carry out the Synod Fathers' wish.

100 The task of interpreting the Word of God authentically has been entrusted solely to the Magisterium of the Church, that is, to the Pope and to the bishops in communion with him.

192 Through the centuries many professions or symbols of faith have been articulated in response to the needs of the different eras: the creeds of the different apostolic and ancient Churches,8 e.g., the Quicumque, also called the Athanasian Creed;9 the professions of faith of certain Councils, such as Toledo, Lateran, Lyons, Trent;10 or the symbols of certain Popes, e.g., the Fides Damasi11 or the Credo of the People of God of Paul VI.12

247 The affirmation of the filioque does not appear in the Creed confessed in 381 at Constantinople. But Pope St. Leo I, following an ancient Latin and Alexandrian tradition, had already confessed it dogmatically in 447,76 even before Rome, in 451 at the Council of Chalcedon, came to recognize and receive the Symbol of 381. The use of this formula in the Creed was gradually admitted into the Latin liturgy (between the eighth and eleventh centuries). The introduction of the filioque into the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed by the Latin liturgy constitutes moreover, even today, a point of disagreement with the Orthodox Churches.

491 Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, "full of grace" through God,134 was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854:
The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.135

869 The Church is apostolic. She is built on a lasting foundation: "the twelve apostles of the Lamb" (Rev 21:14). She is indestructible (cf. Mt 16:18). She is upheld infallibly in the truth: Christ governs her through Peter and the other apostles, who are present in their successors, the Pope and the college of bishops.

881 The Lord made Simon alone, whom he named Peter, the "rock" of his Church. He gave him the keys of his Church and instituted him shepherd of the whole flock.400 "The office of binding and loosing which was given to Peter was also assigned to the college of apostles united to its head."401 This pastoral office of Peter and the other apostles belongs to the Church's very foundation and is continued by the bishops under the primacy of the Pope.

882 The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter's successor, "is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful."402 "For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered."403

895 "The power which they exercise personally in the name of Christ, is proper, ordinary, and immediate, although its exercise is ultimately controlled by the supreme authority of the Church."427 But the bishops should not be thought of as vicars of the Pope. His ordinary and immediate authority over the whole Church does not annul, but on the contrary confirms and defends that of the bishops. Their authority must be exercised in communion with the whole Church under the guidance of the Pope.

899 The initiative of lay Christians is necessary especially when the matter involves discovering or inventing the means for permeating social, political, and economic realities with the demands of Christian doctrine and life. This initiative is a normal element of the life of the Church:
Lay believers are in the front line of Church life; for them the Church is the animating principle of human society. Therefore, they in particular ought to have an ever-clearer consciousness not only of belonging to the Church, but of being the Church, that is to say, the community of the faithful on earth under the leadership of the Pope, the common Head, and of the bishops in communion with him. They are the Church.432

End of Part 1

For what purpose is this necessary when God's will for man is revealed in the writngs of Paul, Peter, John, James, etc., etc.?

It almost seems blasphemous to appoint someone, some human to interpret God's word when God has already delivered it to man through His Holy Spirit.

Do you think God would deliver it as mumbo jumbo so as not to be understood by men and therefore need an organizational interpreter to interpret the Holy Spirit?
 This all appears so worldly and of man and not of God. It becomes in and of itself so involved in worldly struggles to seek and have wordly power over people of the world.

[Reba]

Come on guys you all know using lots and lots of words makes one right.

[JudgeNot]

Yes.

er...

No.

[Petro]

michael,

The source is your pope quotes..

Who else would make outlandish claims like this..

Petro

No the source of the quote (which is only claimed to be from a Pope) was an anti-Catholic website, which is also the "who else would make outlandish claims".

michael,

The Rc catechism does not address this matter you say, but clearly as you can see, popes, bishops and others at high levels within this institution obviously believe otherwise, they teach more than what is written in the Catechism, and since you only adhere to the catechism, you do not really know the full teaching of the matter.

Is this what you are trying to say??

It is clear to me..and anyone who can read plain english..priests, bishops, popes agree with canon law, and glossical teaching.




Petro

[Petro]

michael,

You can only deny some of these quotes, but you can't blame all of these on false quotes or erroneous mis-interpretations to lesser unlearned individulas within romanism.

Note this one;

 http://www.lightministries.com/id523.htm#pope


"Those whom the Pope of Rome doth separate, it is not a man that separates them but God. For the Pope holdeth place on earth, not simply of a man but of the true God....dissolves, not by human but rather by divine authority....I am in all and above all, so that God Himself and I, the vicar of God, hath both one consistory, and I am able to do almost all that God can do...wherefore, if those things that I do be said not to be done of man, but of God, what do you make of me but God? Again, if prelates of the Church be called of Constantine for gods, I then being above all prelates, seem by this reason to be above all gods."

Decretales Domini Gregori ix Translatione Episcoporum, (on the Transference of Bishops), title 7, chapter 3; Corpus Juris Canonice (2nd Leipzig ed., 1881), col. 99; (Paris, 1612), tom. 2, Decretales, col. 205 (while Innocent III was Pope)."

Petro

[michael_legna]

"Man has added many things and ordinances to the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Why, when Christ is all sufficient to salvation from sin and to life in God??"


Has this been answered?

How can it be answered until you show some proof that man has added anything to the Gospel of Jesus Christ?  How is anyone to know who that claim is directed at unless some specifics are offered?

[michael_legna]

For what purpose is this necessary when God's will for man is revealed in the writngs of Paul, Peter, John, James, etc., etc.?

I cannot say for certain why God felt it necessary to establish a man to be in charge of the Church on earth.  But if we follow common reasoning in an attempt to understand God's actions we could extrapolate from the fact that He saw a need for the Church to act as the final authority on issues of disagreement between brothers, and He saw a need for a hierarchy within the Church of Bishops and Elders which Members submitted to, so naturally there must be someone at the top here on earth to lead them all.

It almost seems blasphemous to appoint someone, some human to interpret God's word when God has already delivered it to man through His Holy Spirit.

Certainly God's actions can never be blasphemous and He is the one who gave the power to bind and loose to a select few.   While it is true that God delivered His Word, it is not true that He granted us a clear understanding of it.  This is evidenced by how many different understandings (100's of thousands of them) exist in the Christian community.  

Do you think God would deliver it as mumbo jumbo so as not to be understood by men and therefore need an organizational interpreter to interpret the Holy Spirit?

Do you believe that everyone has an equally deep understanding of the message of the Gospel?  Are there not babes who need to be led and sheep who need to be fed?  Isn't there both milk and meat in the Gospel?  Wouldn't God want to leave someone to help us determine who did and did not have the proper interpretation of the fullness of the mystery?

This all appears so worldly and of man and not of God. It becomes in and of itself so involved in worldly struggles to seek and have wordly power over people of the world.

How it appears to you is of no concern.  All that is of concern is what is stated in God's Word.

[michael_legna]

The Rc catechism does not address this matter you say, but clearly as you can see, popes, bishops and others at high levels within this institution obviously believe otherwise, they teach more than what is written in the Catechism, and since you only adhere to the catechism, you do not really know the full teaching of the matter.

Is this what you are trying to say??

First I cannot plainly see this as you have not provided a reliable, verifiable quote from an unbiased or official source.  Secondly, the Catechism is the full teaching on the matter.  As Pope John-Paul II stated it is "a sure norm for the teaching of the faith"  that means that if you understand the contents of the Catechism you understand the doctrine the RCC espouses.

It is clear to me..and anyone who can read plain english..priests, bishops, popes agree with canon law, and glossical teaching.

It is only clear to you because you trust the "plain english" you got from a anti-catholic site.  But even if they did provide the quote correctly and not out of context or full of errors, it does not mean that is the doctrine of the Church.  If a Priest or Bishop or even a Pope teaches something that is contrary to the official Catechism (except that the Bishops are speaking from with a Council or the Pope is speaking ex cathedra - which happens very infrequently)  then they are not teaching official doctrine and we are not under obligation to accept their teachings in that matter.  

The faith and doctrine of the Catholic Church does not rest with anyone one man's statements in isolation.  If all of the Catholic's around the world believe the Pope to be just a man (and they do) and one or two Cardinals or even Popes speaking for themselves claim he is God (though we have no verifiable evidence this has ever happened yet) then the Church doctrine is still that he is just a man.  No one can change Church doctrine from what it written in the Catechism except the Pope (speaking ex cathedra) or a Council of Bishops in communion with the Pope.  So even if your bizarre quotes turn out to be accurate they do not reflect the teachings of the Church, but only the erroneous teachings of one man.  

You need to get over the idea that Catholic's see the Pope as some mystical figure, Petro.  If you knew the turmoil in the Church over celibate priest, birth control, male only priesthood, and a host of other issues you would know that we do not worship the Chair of Peter.

[ollie]

"Man has added many things and ordinances to the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Why, when Christ is all sufficient to salvation from sin and to life in God??"


Has this been answered?

How can it be answered until you show some proof that man has added anything to the Gospel of Jesus Christ?  How is anyone to know who that claim is directed at unless some specifics are offered?

Good point, Michael.

Rather it should be stated as thus:

"Man has added many things and ordinances to the word of God and His son Jesus Christ."

[Petro]

authored by michael at reply #87



First I cannot plainly see this as you have not provided a reliable, verifiable quote from an unbiased or official source.  Secondly, the Catechism is the full teaching on the matter.  As Pope John-Paul II stated it is "a sure norm for the teaching of the faith"  that means that if you understand the contents of the Catechism you understand the doctrine the RCC espouses.

I am afraid no amount of reliable proof will convince you, since it is clear you are brain washed

As you can see, Every quote below shows you the refenrence, where you can find the excat quote, yet you are fixed on the the sight providing the reliable information.

You really should address the refernce and prove this is not so.

Here they are again for you;

http://www.lightministries.com/id523.htm#pope

"The Pope is God On This Earth"

""Take care that we lose not that salvation, that life and breath which thou hast given us, for thou art our shepherd, thou art our physician, thou art our governor, thou art our husbandman, thou art finally another God on earth."

Christopher Marcellus in Oration addressing Pope Julius II, in Fifth Lateral Council, Session IV (1512), Council Edition. Colm. Agrip. 1618, (From Latin in Mansi SC, Vol. 32, col. 761), (also quoted in History of the Councils, vol. XIV, col 109, by Labbe and Cossart).

"To believe that our Lord God the Pope has not the power to decree as he is decreed, is to be deemed heretical."

The Gloss of Extravagantes of Pope John XXII, Cum. Inter, title 14, chapter 4, "Ad Callem Sexti Decretalium", Column 140, Paris, 1685. (In an Antwerp edition of the Extravagantes, the words, "Dominum Deum Nostrum Papam" ("Our Lord God the Pope") can be found in column 153).

"It is quite certain that Popes have never disapproved or rejected this title 'Lord God the Pope' for the passage in the gloss referred to appears in the edition of the Canon Law published in Rome by Gregory XIII." Statement from Fr. A. Pereira."


"Those whom the Pope of Rome doth separate, it is not a man that separates them but God. For the Pope holdeth place on earth, not simply of a man but of the true God....dissolves, not by human but rather by divine authority....I am in all and above all, so that God Himself and I, the vicar of God, hath both one consistory, and I am able to do almost all that God can do...wherefore, if those things that I do be said not to be done of man, but of God, what do you make of me but God? Again, if prelates of the Church be called of Constantine for gods, I then being above all prelates, seem by this reason to be above all gods."

Decretales Domini Gregori ix Translatione Episcoporum, (on the Transference of Bishops), title 7, chapter 3; Corpus Juris Canonice (2nd Leipzig ed., 1881), col. 99; (Paris, 1612), tom. 2, Decretales, col. 205 (while Innocent III was Pope)."

Can you refute this is not written, by whom  the reference sources state they are written by??

Quit blowing smoke,

As I stated before;  

Just because you deny the RC teaches these things, doesn't mean they don't,

Even their diferent Orders within the institution teach things that are not refuted by the church, and are not found in the catechism, as you stated earlier elsewhere, their teaching is not found in any one given source, but is found in many places.

How do you reconcile, the fact the church at the level of the see considers the Pope to be sitting in the place of God, and that according to you it is not taught in the catrechism??

Yet the words are crystal clear, that is to say to those that can read, plain english...

You may have trouble understanding this, but most Christians who know what scripture teaches don't.. they see these teachings for what they are.

Petro