Should Christians punish others for their "victimless" sins?

[Shammu]

I think JitC forgets...
Is letting a murderer go a loving (Just) thing to do?

I think 2nd Timothy forgets that it's wrong to deceive people for your own gain. He knows that I don't support the letting go of murderers, but he doesn't mind if he causes other people to think that.

Hmmm, I'm being deceptive?  Lets see what I really said....

I think JitC forgets that one of Love's attributes is that it is Just.

Leaving out the context of what I said changes the meaning doesn't it?  Something you seem prone to.

JitC-

If you punish your child out of love for him, then you wouldn't be condemning him, you'ld be helping him. But nobody can throw rocks at a woman until she's dead, and say it was out of love for her. Likewise, if you punish somebody, then it should be out of love, which makes it a loving act, and not condemnation.

My reply was simply...Is not one of Loves attributes being Just?   Not to say that stoning someone is loving them, but is letting them continuing to sin or break laws loving them?  Is letting a murderer go loving them?  Is letting my child escape punishment for lying loving him?  Is letting a drug dealer go unpunished loving him?  How does one love a criminal?   Maybe not by stoning him, but Certainly not by letting the offense go un-punished either.  Christians should love, but being Just, IS and attribute of Love.

Grace and Peace!

How about bringing them the word of God. As some of you know I have done that to, my wifes murderer. Now he is a believer in prison, working in the church there.

[JitC]

As for civil laws and penalties, we have plenty of scriptural ground to stand on as far as punishing crime.

No gound whatsoever to condemn a person on a spiritual level.

What do you mean by "a spiritual level"? Is not condemnation still condemnation, regardless of what it's for?

[2nd Timothy]

I think JitC forgets...
Is letting a murderer go a loving (Just) thing to do?

I think 2nd Timothy forgets that it's wrong to deceive people for your own gain. He knows that I don't support the letting go of murderers, but he doesn't mind if he causes other people to think that.

Hmmm, I'm being deceptive?  Lets see what I really said....

I think JitC forgets that one of Love's attributes is that it is Just.

Leaving out the context of what I said changes the meaning doesn't it?  Something you seem prone to.

JitC-

If you punish your child out of love for him, then you wouldn't be condemning him, you'ld be helping him. But nobody can throw rocks at a woman until she's dead, and say it was out of love for her. Likewise, if you punish somebody, then it should be out of love, which makes it a loving act, and not condemnation.

My reply was simply...Is not one of Loves attributes being Just?   Not to say that stoning someone is loving them, but is letting them continuing to sin or break laws loving them?  Is letting a murderer go loving them?  Is letting my child escape punishment for lying loving him?  Is letting a drug dealer go unpunished loving him?  How does one love a criminal?   Maybe not by stoning him, but Certainly not by letting the offense go un-punished either.  Christians should love, but being Just, IS and attribute of Love.

Grace and Peace!

How about bringing them the word of God. As some of you know I have done that to, my wifes murderer. Now he is a believer in prison, working in the church there.

Yes DW.  A very good point.

Grace and Peace!

[JitC]

How about bringing them the word of God. As some of you know I have done that to, my wifes murderer. Now he is a believer in prison, working in the church there.

Wow, that's awesome that you're showing him love when most people would feel hatred towards him. Very honorable.

I almost want to adopt your ideology about it never being a Christians place to do something to somebody that could be considered punishment (in other words, always be physically passive). I have a few reservations, but it's definitely something to think about.

[2nd Timothy]

As for civil laws and penalties, we have plenty of scriptural ground to stand on as far as punishing crime.

No gound whatsoever to condemn a person on a spiritual level.

What do you mean by "a spiritual level"? Is not condemnation still condemnation, regardless of what it's for?

Is it even within a humans capacity to condemn someone spiritually?  Only God can do that.

Grace and Peace!

[JitC]

Is it even within a humans capacity to condemn someone spiritually?  Only God can do that.

That's exactly what I was thinking. So if we can't condemn somebody spiritually, then when Jesus said not to condemn people he wouldn't have meant spiritual condemnation.

[Shammu]

How about bringing them the word of God. As some of you know I have done that to, my wifes murderer. Now he is a believer in prison, working in the church there.

Wow, that's awesome that you're showing him love when most people would feel hatred towards him. Very honorable.

I almost want to adopt your ideology about it never being a Christians place to do something to somebody that could be considered punishment (in other words, always be physically passive). I have a few reservations, but it's definitely something to think about.

In order to be this way, be physically passive you have to give yourself to God, 100%. There are times thoug when I almost loose it, but I remember my Lords will. I open my Bible and find the peace I am looking for.  Jesus Christ will, will be done.

[nChrist]

Well,

I see this thread as MUCH to do about absolutely NOTHING.

Society does not condemn, as if society was God, when they punish or fine a person for breaking the law. Most people have no clue what it would be like if there were no laws of society. I DO! I saw it and fought it for 25 years.

Without the law, the first to be victimized are the weak, the sick, women, children, and the elderly. After all, it would be a jungle mentality, and only the strongest would survive. The entire place would be a sewer of evil and darkness. If a Christian opened their mouth, they would be killed. The devil would reign without opposition, and you would either join the evil or die.

DreamWeaver, my heart breaks for the loss of your wife, and I do understand how you are trying to deal with it. One of the reasons why the murderer is behind bars is to keep him from killing more innocent people. Had the murderer been sentenced to physical death, it would still NOT be society condemning him. Society has no method of condemning a person to eternal destruction. Only God can do that.

Back to JitC, it is beyond SILLY to suggest that our society has no law, no enforcement of the law, and no punishment or fine for violating the law. You probably wouldn't even be here to make this SILLY argument. By the way, the passive would be among the weak and would be the most popular targets. I could put you in places that do have law enforcement, and you wouldn't last 10 minutes. If you wanted to bring out your Bible, they would simply take more time in killing you and enjoy the moment.

JitC - in short - You don't have a clue. Further, what you are suggesting is against the teaching of the Holy Bible. Nobody would be raising a family in your dream society. Further, there wouldn't be any churches in your society. Christians would simply be hunted, and they will be one day.

[JitC]

Society does not condemn, as if society was God, when they punish or fine a person for breaking the law.

Exactly. Nobody can condemn another the way God can. So when Jesus commanded us not to condemn, he must have been talking about the type of condemnation that we are able to do.

...it is beyond SILLY to suggest that our society has no law, no enforcement of the law, and no punishment or fine for violating the law.

[sigh] You still don't understand what it is that I'm saying. I can see how it can be confusing, and I can see how I may not have explained it properly, so I'll try one more time...I'm not saying society should have no laws, etc. What I am saying, is that Christians should not be involved in punishing people. Not that Christians should be prevented from it, as if to be prejudice towards Christians. But that Christians should voluntarily not involve themselves. The first, and understandable thought, would be that without Christians punishing people, and implementing laws, society would be in chaos. However, in all practicality there is not a chance that everybody who calls himself a Christian will actually obey Jesus. Even if everybody who calls himself a Christian were to remain physically passive, there would still be laws, laws would still be enforced, and there would still be punishments for violation of the law. It would be inconceivable to think that even a totally non-Christian society would have no laws. Being that there will be laws, no matter what, we all are able to benefit. But just because those laws lead to positive things, doesn’t mean that it’s right to be involved in causing those positive things. Judas Iscariot was partly involved in the chain of events that lead to salvation through Christ. His actions resulted in positive things, but that certainly doesn’t mean he did something positive. Similarly, just because punishing people has positive results, it doesn’t mean that it’s a positive thing to punish people. Neither does it, alone, mean that it would be a negative thing. To know if it would be positive or negative for us, we have to look to what Jesus commanded us to do. He commanded: “Do not judge…” Clearly that means that we aren’t supposed to judge. The rest of his sentence is about what will happen if we do judge. He says: “…otherwise you’ll be judged.” I know I wouldn’t want Christ judging me. I would be condemned to hell for sure. And if anybody is honest with themselves, they will agree that the same is true for them also.

I know that many people will disagree and think that it’s ok to condemn people. But like I said, there’s not a chance that everybody will obey Jesus. That’s why He said: “Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?” (Luke 6:46)

[2nd Timothy]

we have to look to what Jesus commanded us to do. He commanded: “Do not judge…” Clearly that means that we aren’t supposed to judge

JitC.  How do you account for Jesus' apparent contradictory statement in John?

Joh 7:24  Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

Jesus' own words.

Grace and Peace!

[JitC]

Joh 7:24  Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

If looking only at the quote above, it would seem that I’m wrong. But the context in which it appears should also be examined…

“And there was much complaining among the people concerning Him. Some said, "He is good"; others said, "No, on the contrary, He deceives the people." However, no one spoke openly of Him for fear of the Jews.
Now about the middle of the feast Jesus went up into the temple and taught. And the Jews marveled, saying, "How does this Man know letters, having never studied?"
Jesus answered them and said, "My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me. If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority. He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but He who seeks the glory of the One who sent Him is true, and no unrighteousness is in Him. Did not Moses give you the law, yet none of you keeps the law? Why do you seek to kill Me?"
The people answered and said, "You have a demon. Who is seeking to kill You?"
Jesus answered and said to them, "I did one work, and you all marvel. Moses therefore gave you circumcision (not that it is from Moses, but from the fathers), and you circumcise a man on the Sabbath. If a man receives circumcision on the Sabbath, so that the law of Moses should not be broken, are you angry with Me because I made a man completely well on the Sabbath? Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.” - (John 7:12-24)

…I went to Merriam-webster.com to look at just what the dictionary definitions were for “judge” (the verb). The first definition was “to form an opinion about”. That specific definition is certainly not the “condemnation” that I was referring to earlier. So, again, “judge” can mean condemning someone, or it can mean forming an opinion.

In the passage above, Jesus says “Why do you seek to kill Me?” Clearly they wanted to condemn Him. But more closely examining the passage makes it become clear that Jesus’ main point was not that they shouldn’t seek to kill Him, at least not specifically. It seems that what He is getting at is people should not form opinions based merely on appearance, but that people should form righteous opinions. Many of them formed opinions (or judged) wrongly. They said: “He deceives the people”. They said to Him: “You have a demon.” And Jesus points out that they were angry with Him. Clearly they were forming the wrong opinions. So when Jesus tells them to judge righteously, he was talking about forming righteous opinions. However, that doesn’t necessarily mean He was talking only of opinions. He could have been talking about opinions and condemnation/punishment. With only the passage above we can’t be sure. But when the rest of the bible is taken into account (and especially John 8:3-11), I think it becomes more clear that we are to form righteous opinions, but not to condemn/punish people. Many people in the New Testament punish people, and seek to punish people. But I think it is no coincidence that there is not a single Christian in the bible who tries to punish somebody.

[Allinall]

Well,

I see this thread as MUCH to do about absolutely NOTHING.

Society does not condemn, as if society was God, when they punish or fine a person for breaking the law. Most people have no clue what it would be like if there were no laws of society. I DO! I saw it and fought it for 25 years.

Without the law, the first to be victimized are the weak, the sick, women, children, and the elderly. After all, it would be a jungle mentality, and only the strongest would survive. The entire place would be a sewer of evil and darkness. If a Christian opened their mouth, they would be killed. The devil would reign without opposition, and you would either join the evil or die.

DreamWeaver, my heart breaks for the loss of your wife, and I do understand how you are trying to deal with it. One of the reasons why the murderer is behind bars is to keep him from killing more innocent people. Had the murderer been sentenced to physical death, it would still NOT be society condemning him. Society has no method of condemning a person to eternal destruction. Only God can do that.

Back to JitC, it is beyond SILLY to suggest that our society has no law, no enforcement of the law, and no punishment or fine for violating the law. You probably wouldn't even be here to make this SILLY argument. By the way, the passive would be among the weak and would be the most popular targets. I could put you in places that do have law enforcement, and you wouldn't last 10 minutes. If you wanted to bring out your Bible, they would simply take more time in killing you and enjoy the moment.

JitC - in short - You don't have a clue. Further, what you are suggesting is against the teaching of the Holy Bible. Nobody would be raising a family in your dream society. Further, there wouldn't be any churches in your society. Christians would simply be hunted, and they will be one day.

Now THAT[/b] sounds vaguely familiar...

Hey!  I'll ask a quick question since everyone seems to be.  JiTC?  What exactly is your point?  Because if ya don't mind my simple-minded observation...you haven't got much of a one.