Eternal Security.

[nChrist]

Jesus was never intended to be analized and disected to the point of being a lifeless doctrine. OSAS is lifeless and vain.

Oklahoma Howdy to Asaph,

I was talking about the Gospel of God's Grace, not a doctrine. The key word here is GRACE, a free gift not earned or deserved. You would have to add to or take away to get anything else.

I wouldn't have a clue why you would say that Eternal Salvation is lifeless and vain. It would be the exact opposite. Our Saviour, Jesus Christ, LIVES, and we have eternal life with him THROUGH HIS SHED BLOOD ON THE CROSS. There is no vanity for man in the Gospel of God's Grace, nor is there any glory for man. ALL GLORY GOES TO ALMIGHTY GOD.

Some men are mistaken that they can achieve righteousness in themselves or do enough good works to save themselves. This is the vanity of man and false teaching. If this was possible, the crucifixion of Jesus Christ on the cross was for nothing. I am convinced that man is in desperate need of a Saviour, Jesus Christ. To understand the Gospel of God's Grace, you need to forget about self. If you wish to accept Jesus Christ as your personal Saviour, you are purchased and belong to him. If you live or glory, you will LIVE AND GLORY IN HIM, not yourself. You won't be able to see the GLORY OF THE GOSPEL OF GOD'S GRACE until you forget about self and LIVE IN CHRIST.

[nChrist]

Regardless how many feel on whether this is a great truth or not, (it wouldn't change it one iota) and we should  be shouting it from the rooftops, we should not let it slip away from us, and we be believe it, because we understand the teaching of it, and we teach it, because the next generation of soldiers of the cross need to understand it; it is a fou8ndational doctrine to our faith,  because it is grounded in the truth of the Living Word of God.

Oklahoma Howdy To Petro,

I believe this is the greatest truth and the greatest event of the Holy Bible and the history of mankind. I'm drinking a cup of coffee and getting ready to leave to spend Easter with my daughter and her family. There is no doubt at all that we serve a LIVING SAVIOUR, JESUS CHRIST, OUR LORD.

If there is any doubt, it is on the part of man, NOT GOD. Another Christian friend uses the terms, DIE OR FLY. You are already aware that dying is for the lost and FLYING IS FOR GOD'S CHILDREN. He didn't expound further on FLYING, but I immediately recognized much more in these simple words. The pilot is JESUS, one worthy of complete faith and confidence. The flight is beautiful, safe, and secure in complete assurance of our safe destination. Our complete confidence should be shared with others so they may also FLY WITH JESUS. There should be no fear of FLYING, as there is joy from the beginning of the flight. Boarding is entry into his GLORIOUS LIGHT. We rest safe and secure in HIS POWERFUL MIGHT.

HAPPY EASTER!

[Symphony]

Sigh, this topic already has FIVE pages, and just since the forum reopened not even two weeks ago...

[Tawhano]

Hello All,

This is an interesting thread. I was wondering how the ‘The Parable of the Sower’ in Matthew 13 and this verse:

Matthew 24:12-14
And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

And others like it fit in the OSAS scheme?

[Petro]

It makes no difference; what any man says;

Christians ought to listen to Jesus.

Jesus said,

37  All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
39  And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40  And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
(Jhn 6:37,39-40)

Every person who has been regenerated by the Spirit of God, will be raised at the last day, whether they want to or not, what is sad, is they do not have that assurance today. This is Good News of the Gospel.

Mat 24
13  But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

The endurance spoken of herein, is not physical endurance, and the only spiritual endurance any man can claim, is that of the Holy Spirit working in man and persevering in the end, not because any man wills IT, but because God wills I, AND HAS ORDAINED IT, since He is the one that calls all those whom he saves out of pit of death.

Rom 8
30  Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Everyone whom God calls, He will in the end glorIfy, because Jesus will not lose ONE, OF whom God  gives unto Him.

"I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."    (Jhn 10:28)
 
These are the words of assurance, for everyone who is saved.

 Blessings,

Petro

[Tawhano]

Petro said:
“It makes no difference; what any man says;
Christians ought to listen to Jesus.”

I agree, which is why I asked how the ‘Parable of the Sower’ in Matthew 13 and this verse below, fits in with the OSAS idea.

Matthew 24:12-14
And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

I can’t see your argument that the ‘endure to the end’ means something other than physically enduring till the end comes. As shown in these scriptrures:

Matthew 10:21-23
And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

2 Timothy 2:3
Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

2 Timothy 4:4-5
And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

Hebrews 6:4-15
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee. And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.

In the Greek hupomeno {hoop-om-en'-o}

1) to remain
2) to remain i.e. abide, not recede or flee
    a) to preserve: under misfortunes and trials to hold fast to one's faith in Christ
    b) to endure, bear bravely and calmly: ill treatments

I guess from your reply there is some confusion as to what I am asking. I simply want to know how these scriptures line up with the idea of OSAS. I'm not asking for more scriptures but a clarification on the above scriptures in light of OSAS.

[Petro]

 

Posted by Tawhano as Reply #76

Petro said:
"It makes no difference; what any man says;
Christians ought to listen to Jesus."

I agree, which is why I asked how the 'Parable of the Sower' in Matthew 13 and this verse below, fits in with the OSAS idea.

Matthew 24:12-14
And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

I can't see your argument that the 'endure to the end' means something other than physically enduring till the end comes. As shown in these scriptrures:

Matthew 10:21-23
And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

2 Timothy 2:3
Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

2 Timothy 4:4-5
And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

Hebrews 6:4-15
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee. And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.

In the Greek hupomeno {hoop-om-en'-o}

1) to remain
2) to remain i.e. abide, not recede or flee
a) to preserve: under misfortunes and trials to hold fast to one's faith in Christ
b) to endure, bear bravely and calmly: ill treatments

I guess from your reply there is some confusion as to what I am asking. I simply want to know how these scriptures line up with the idea of OSAS. I'm not asking for more scriptures but a clarification on the above scriptures in light of OSAS.

Tawhano,

I don't know why you would be confused, since from the begining I have been pointing to the same points you close your post with.

Man can do nothing, he is totally helpless, with regard to his unsaved condition, this is why Total Depravity of the TULIP, we were discussing, is termed "Total Inability"

And, to answer your question directly; you posted;

"I can't see your argument that the 'endure to the end' means something other than physically enduring till the end comes.

As shown in these scriptrures,to keep from quarreling about it:

Jesus tells us;

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. (Jhn 15:4-5)

And, again;

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. (Jhn 6:63)

Physical endurance is not what is going to be rewarded in the end with salvation, this is not in view in the verses, you have given; and by your own understanding of the Greek word "hupomeno" and your 2 points you make at the very end it is evident, and plain you don't believe it, yourself.

Since the scriptures are written primarily for Christians (as well as non Christians), it is NOT possible for the unsaved to be saved just by enduring outside of Christ,  however, we understand what is written for our own edification and admonishment that all the verses quoted are speaking of enduring by abiding in Christ thru the Spirit.

I beleive what you were trying to point out, in your previous post with regard to OSAS, was that those who endured are rewarded  in the end with "salvation", insinuating that all of the unsaved who endured would be saved (please correct me if I am wrong).

While agreeing with you, that potentially this is true, we know (from scripture) that not all that endure to the end will be saved, and it is unbilical to make such a claim.

The passage you quoted can be scrutinized by looking it over,
 
Mat 24:8-13; and at verse 9, it becomes plain who are the ones who endure to the end.  

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9   Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

It is plain, this passage is speaking to the hears of this discourse, who are they??

Verse 1, tells us it was Jesus's disciples who are the hears of these things which he spoke concerning the end times.

So, we can then, say with assurance, ALL those who hear and do His words, are His disciples. And that is why, I pointed out to you, it is those who persevere by the Spirit, who in the end will be saved, not just those who endure, Consider Rev 16 these endured affliction by the plagues, from God and what do the scriptures say consider these. they "blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds."  (vs 11)

So then we see that Calvinism, teaches that man is drawen, saved and kept, not by any power he possess, but by the same Spirit, which raised Jesus from the dead.

This is why, everyone who names the name of Christ can be assured they are secure in Him, it has nothing to do on their ability to keep themselves saved by keeping laws or ordinances.

This is the Good News of the Gospel, that we have been forgiven of ALL of OUR SINS.

Blessings,

Petro

[Tawhano]

Pedro,

I suspect that the confusion is my use of the words ‘physical endurance’. I’m not talking about un-believers and believers alike lasting in the flesh till the end because they endured afflictions but rather the believer lasting in his faith till the end (his death). If you stand fast in your faith in Christ then you shall be saved but if you ‘fall away’ like the seeds in the parable and in Hebrews 6, then you will not be saved. If your love for Christ wax cold because iniquity abounds then you will not be saved

Perhaps the confusion may be that I don't understand your definition of being ‘saved’. When do you believe a person is saved?

[Early57]

That verse in Matt 24 Who was Jesus speaking too?


Was the period of Grace in effect then or was it a future event yet to come?

[Petro]

Pedro,

I suspect that the confusion is my use of the words ‘physical endurance’. I’m not talking about un-believers and believers alike lasting in the flesh till the end because they endured afflictions but rather the believer lasting in his faith till the end (his death). If you stand fast in your faith in Christ then you shall be saved but if you ‘fall away’ like the seeds in the parable and in Hebrews 6, then you will not be saved. If your love for Christ wax cold because iniquity abounds then you will not be saved

Perhaps the confusion may be that I don't understand your definition of being ‘saved’. When do you believe a person is saved?

Tawhona,

I can see, what the problem is, I asked asaph this same question, concerning Heb 6:4-6; how one understands these verses, makes a world of difference how he sets his foundational doctrines.

Those spoken of in Heb 6:4-6, are unsaved.

They are like Judas Iscariot, or the Mohamads of the world, they came up to the tree of life but never partook of the fruit.

You need to work on these, only then will you get a correct understanding tghe definition of "saved" according to scripture, never mind about my definition.

By the way, there are no "free agents" I don't know where this is taught in scripture, this is pipe dream, only deception and pride put this elusive desire in sinners who want to be their own self made person; man is either in bondage to sin, or a bond servant to Christ.




Blessings,

Petro

[Tawhano]

Petro said:
Those spoken of in Heb 6:4-6, are unsaved.

They are like Judas Iscariot, or the Mohamads of the world, they came up to the tree of life but never partook of the fruit.

Hebrews 6:4
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

The verse says they partook. How can an unsaved person be a partaker of the Holy Ghost or the heavenly gift? This verse is most definitely talking about people who were saved but did not endure to the end. The verse below says the same thing, believers can fall away if they don’t hold steadfast in their faith.

Hebrews 3:13-14
But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Petro said:
While agreeing with you, that potentially this is true, we know (from scripture) that not all that endure to the end will be saved, and it is unbilical to make such a claim.

I’m not sure I see your point there. Do the scriptures tell us ‘that not all that endure to the end will be saved’ or is it umbilical to claim that not all that endure to the end will be saved. From the verses below I would think it is clear that the promise is if you endure till the end that you will be saved.

Matthew 10:22
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 24:13
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mark 13:13
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Petro, I respectfully disagree with your viewpoint. In all your arguments you were evasive and opinionated. You would pick out one verse I quoted to refute and ignore any others I provided. You dismiss the verses I provided as not meaning what they say by casual remarks and nothing in scripture to back up your claims. The verses you did use had nothing to do with the point you were trying to make. After reading your many post I still am confused as to what your doctrine is that you are trying to get me to see.


Petro said:
By the way, there are no "free agents" I don't know where this is taught in scripture, this is pipe dream, only deception and pride put this elusive desire in sinners who want to be their own self made person; man is either in bondage to sin, or a bond servant to Christ.

I didn’t say anything about ‘free agent’ being a biblical term. I was saying that I refuse to bond myself to man’s teaching of the Bible. When I look through the arguments here about defending one’s religion I see people quoting verses that they were taught without really knowing what it means or comparing it to other verses to see how it fits into the overall picture. OSAS doesn’t fit in with all the scripture. Just because you can quote a few verses that, on the face of it, seem to support your views doesn’t mean that to be so. I tried to carry an open minded, intelligent debate here but all I got was your nasty remark proclaiming me to be a sinner.

[Petro]

posted by tawhano
I didn't say anything about 'free agent' being a biblical term. I was saying that I refuse to bond myself to man's teaching of the Bible  

Tawhano,

What?, you say just because I post a few verses, it doesn't prove anything??  That is strange, coming from one who claims to believe the Bible.

It is written, how can two walk together, lest they agree...

Unwittingly, you and others who make these blanket statements, "I only believe what the Bible teaches" think you have one up on all other run of the mill Christians as thou, you undertsand all there is to know about what the Bible teaches, but the fact is while rejection one doctrinal position you embrace another, taught by men.

And sometimes, depending how you understand a certain verse or passage, you have a little of this and a little of that teaching of this or that man in your doctrine.

We fishermen call it a "birds nest", and as anyone who knows anything about fishing, it is impossible to catch anything with such a mess;  learn from Paul, he took three years, upon being saved, and went to Arabia, to untangle his fishing line, and then came forth preaching Christ in power by the Holy Spirit, whom he persecuted.

Free agents, in the end what they claim to believe and what they believe are two different things, so who is deceived in the end??

Am I wrong in understanding you believe that the Bible teaches, these in Heb 6, are saved and Lost their Salvation??

We both read the same passage of scripture and come away with two different interpretations.  Why is that??  

The answer to this question lies in the Word of God.

Understanding words, is basic to being able to put together the teaching, the passage of scripture teaches,  to the teachable.

May I share verses with you; I don't doubt one monent if you say you believe what the Bible teaches, that you will deny these verses..

Deut 29
29  The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

1 Cor 2
11  For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12  Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13  Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14  But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


Now refering to verse 29, of Deut 29 above, the NT at Gal 3:22-25;  makes it plain;

"But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster."

So, then the Bible teaches that the law of sin and death, this is the same Law of Moses, which was "written and engraven in stone" by God; it is done away with in Christ when men turn their hearts toward Him.

Do you believe this??  The Bible teaches it in the New Testament plainly...for all to read and understand.

I can safely say, only the natural man, or a babe in Christ is unable to believe this..that the Law which was written in stone is done away with in Christ Jesus; and those of us who claim understanding of that which is written know and believe this is speaking of  all that was written on those tablets of stone Moses prepared, this includes the Comandments

Are we in agreement, thus far..

Petro

[Ambassador4Christ]

That verse in Matt 24 Who was Jesus speaking too?


Was the period of Grace in effect then or was it a future event yet to come?

That verse in Matt 24 Who was Jesus speaking too? ISRAEL!

Was the period of Grace in effect then or was it a future event yet to come? No. It came in Acts Chapter 9  

[Petro]

That verse in Matt 24 Who was Jesus speaking too?


Was the period of Grace in effect then or was it a future event yet to come?

Ambassador,

What is your point, all who are saved, are saved by Grace, thruoght all generations and dispensations.

And Jesus, had disciples while walking on the earth, and has them today.

Mat 24, speaks loud and clear of the end times, and his second coming.

Blessings,

Petro

That verse in Matt 24 Who was Jesus speaking too? ISRAEL!

Was the period of Grace in effect then or was it a future event yet to come? No. It came in Acts Chapter 9  

[Early57]

King Saul was a partaker of the heavenly gift of the Holy Ghost.