Opinions please: Forgiven for future sins?

[michael_legna]

PART 5 OF 9

Eat His Body and Drink His Blood

John 6:54
They said therefore to him, "What must we do, that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent." ...Jesus therefore said to them, "Most certainly, I tell you, it wasn't Moses who gave you the bread out of heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread out of heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world." They said therefore to him, "Lord, always give us this bread." Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will not be hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty...This is the will of my Father who sent me, that of all he has given to me I should lose nothing, but should raise him up at the last day. This is the will of the one who sent me, that everyone who sees the Son, and believes in him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day." ...No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up in the last day. It is written in the prophets, 'They will all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who hears from the Father, and has learned, comes to me. Not that anyone has seen the Father, except he who is from God. He has seen the Father. Most certainly, I tell you, he who believes in me has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, that anyone may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread which came down out of heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. Yes, the bread which I will give for the life of the world is my flesh." ...He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood lives in me, and I in him...He who eats this bread will live forever." ... "Does this cause you to stumble? Then what if you would see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life. (Joh 6:28-63)

"I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will not be hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty...

This is the will of the one who sent me, that everyone who sees the Son, and believes in him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day...Most certainly, I tell you, he who believes in me has eternal life.

He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

He gives us the literal first then the figurative.  Nothing about working for salvation here.  

Once again we do not have two verses in contradiction of each other such that we have to spiritualize away the meaning of one and only believe the other.  We have one verse which speak of a partial understanding (until one realizes that faith goes beyond just believing in Christ as sacrificial lamb).  As Augustine put it in his commentary on this very verse.

“He does not say, That you believe Him, but, that you believe in Him. For the devils believed Him, and did not believe in Him; and we believe Paul, but do not believe in Paul. To believe in Him is believing to love, believing to honor Him, believing to go to Him, and be made members incorporate of His Body. The faith, which God requires of us, is that which works by love. Faith indeed is distinguished from works by the Apostle, who says, That man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. But the works indeed which appear good, without faith in Christ, are not really so, not being referred to that end, which makes them good. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believes. And therefore our Lord would not separate faith from works, but said that faith itself was the doing the work of God” St. Augustine

Nothing in the verse supports or even hints at the notion that one part is figurative that is just you applying your preconceived notions on the scriptures instead of reading them to see what they say.  It is true that the Jews at first understood Jesus to be speaking figuratively when He says if they come to Him they will never hunger or if they believe in Him they will never thirst.  But as soon as we get to verse 51 we see that the Jews realize he is being literal and they leave.  But even this analysis is opposite of yours with the figurative first and then the literal, so your understanding doesn’t even match the Jews.  The Apostles on the other hand accepted Jesus at His word through the entire discourse.

If Christ is being figurative in His statement of eating His body and drinking His blood then Paul is promoting idolatry when he warns us of damnation for disrespecting this symbol by not recognizing the body of Christ in it (1 Cor 11:29).

All along Jesus uses the term fago for eat, both in reference to the manna in the desert (which was literally eaten of course) and for His own body – thus implying it is to be taken literally there too.  Jesus even strengthens this concept once the Jews revolt against the idea (showing that they were taking Him literally) by using the new term trogo which literally means to gnaw or chew, a much more literal reference to eating.  He also makes no attempt to calm their fears and concerns saying “No, No I am only being figurative here”.

END OF PART 5

[michael_legna]

PART 6 OF 9

Be Humble

Matt 5:3, Luke 18:9-14
"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven. Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted. Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall be filled. Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy. Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called children of God. Blessed are those who have been persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven. "Blessed are you when people reproach you, persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven. For that is how they persecuted the prophets who were before you. "You are the salt of the earth, but if the salt has lost its flavor, with what will it be salted? It is then good for nothing, but to be cast out and trodden under the feet of men. You are the light of the world. A city located on a hill can't be hidden. Neither do you light a lamp, and put it under a measuring basket, but on a stand; and it shines to all who are in the house. Even so, let your light shine before men; that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven. (Mat 5:3-16)

"You are the light of the world...let your light shine before men; that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven"  

Show the fruit of the Spirit that is in you.  We have no light of our own.  Describing attributes (bearing fruit in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God).  Nothing about working for salvation here.

This verse specifically identifies a characteristic of men (poor in spirit) who will be given the gift of salvation (the kingdom of heaven).  Your attempt to force your doctrine (that we have no light of our own) into the discussion has no basis and no support even in the additional context you include – it just plain doesn’t appear in the text – it is merely a remnant of your doctrine and is thus a preconceived notion you are forced to find a way to fit into the verse to make the scripture agree with your doctrine.

The characteristics that lead to salvation are not faith, but works.  So yes this does relate works to the proper acceptance of the gift of salvation, just as faith is.
 

"Two men went up into the temple to pray; one was a Pharisee, and the other was a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed to himself like this: 'God, I thank you, that I am not like the rest of men, extortioners, unrighteous, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week. I give tithes of all that I get.' But the tax collector, standing far away, wouldn't even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, a sinner!' I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted." (Luk 18:10-14)

"Contrasts on who thinks his works have merit with the one who trusts only in God’s mercy. Nothing “positive” about working for salvation here.

The individual humbles himself that is a work just the same as us converting to be a children another work that applies to salvation.

Suffer Persecution for Righteousness

Matt 5:10
Blessed are those who have been persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven. (Mat 5:10)

Describing what the world does to those who believe.  Nothing about working for salvation here.

If the gift of salvation is by faith alone then it doesn’t matter if this is our works or the works of others it must still be excluded (which it obviously isn’t).  But to accept your interpretation is to miss the point of this exhortation.  The beatitudes are exhortations to those who face these issues to remain strong in their faith because if they do there are gifts that await them.  In two cases, this one and the one above involving the poor in spirit, we see that the gift is eternal life in the kingdom of heaven.  The entire message of the beatitudes is one of endurance and that is an issue of works, not faith.

END OF PART 6

[michael_legna]

PART 7 OF 9

Lose Attachment to Our Earthly Life

Matt 16:25, Mark 8:35, Luke 9:24, Luke 17:33, John 12:25, Mar 10:28-30
But he turned, and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me, for you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of men." Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone desires to come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, and whoever will lose his life for my sake will find it. (Mat 16:23-25)

Describing attributes of those who have not believed and in faith given their life to Christ.  Nothing about working for salvation here.

The last part of the phrase is not about those who have not believed, but is about those who have believed.  Those who “lose his life for my sake will find it” refer to those who sacrifice for the gospel and Christ.  It is similar to those who are referred to by Peter in Matt 19:29

Mat 19:29  And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

All of these individuals are promised the gift of eternal life for properly accepting it, by truly believing in Christ, not just as the sacrificial lamb but as shepherd, king and ruler and picking up our cross DAILY and following Him.

For whoever wants to save his life will lose it; and whoever will lose his life for my sake and the sake of the Good News will save it. (Mar 8:35)

For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever will lose his life for my sake, the same will save it... For whoever will be ashamed of me and of my words, of him will the Son of Man be ashamed, when he comes in his glory, and the glory of the Father, and of the holy angels. But I tell you the truth: There are some of those who stand here, who will in no way taste of death, until they see the Kingdom of God." (Luk 9:24-27)

Whoever seeks to save his life loses it, but whoever loses his life preserves it. (Luk 17:33)

Jesus answered them, "The time has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. Most certainly I tell you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains by itself alone. But if it dies, it bears much fruit. He who loves his life will lose it. He who hates his life in this world will keep it to eternal life. (Joh 12:23-25)

He who hates his old sinful life and turns and believes (has faith) will have eternal life in Christ.  Nothing about working for salvation here.

Don’t you see this turning, that even you admit is part of repentance, is a work.  As I pointed out before this repentance/work must occur before we have faith in our Savior.  Therefore salvation and eternal life is related to works as much as it is to faith if not more so.

Don't be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna. "Aren't two sparrows sold for an assarion coin? Not one of them falls on the ground apart from your Father's will, but the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Therefore don't be afraid. You are of more value than many sparrows. Everyone therefore who confesses me before men, him I will also confess before my Father who is in heaven. But whoever denies me before men, him I will also deny before my Father who is in heaven. (Mat 10:28-33)

The fruitful works by word or deed proclaim/confess our faith in Christ.  You will know them by their fruit. Nothing about working for salvation here.

In your own doctrine the work considered here can not be a fruit of the spirit, as it comes prior to salvation – which you link to the moment of faith so there would be no time for this fruit.  So in your doctrine this work because it precedes salvation must also precede faith, which of course it does not.  So your interpretation, made in an effort to fit this verse into your doctrine is inconsistent, but only in your doctrine.  In mine the two must both precede salvation as that is determined at the end when we have endured.  My doctrine is self consistent and yours is not.

Rom 10:10-13  For with the heart, one believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.  (11)  For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes in him will not be disappointed."  (12)  For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich to all who call on him.  (13)  For, "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved."  

The verse you reference in contrast or to the one I referenced (I am sure you think it is to illuminate - but since you fail to even attempt to interpret the verse I offer it can only be seen as trying to get scripture to contradict itself) seems to say that faith is for justification and confession (works) is for salvation. So obviously a strict literal interpretation is insufficient to understand it.  As even the Protestant commentator Matthew Henry points out.

“a. Two things are required as conditions of salvation: - (a.) Confessing the Lord Jesus - … and… (b.) Believing in the heart that God raised him from the dead.”  Matthew Henry’s commentary.

He goes on to point out…

“Justification by faith lays the foundation of our title to salvation; but by confession we build upon that foundation, and come at last to the full possession of that to which we were entitled.” Matthew Henry’s commentary.

So we see that this verse is really talking about the same thing (righteousness and salvation are two ways of expressing the same idea).  So if both are required for salvation and one precedes the other, and one develops from the first then what we are talking about if the issue of sanctification and its role in salvation.  But again we are faced with the fact that sanctification is a process involving works so it cannot be fit in any consistent manner into your doctrine but yet is part and parcel of mine.  So the very verse you use to attempt to illuminate the one I offered disagrees with your doctrine once one bothers to interpret it.

We can see this more clearly if we look at the following verse (which you conveniently did not include in the verse you once again try to put in opposition to another verse from the word of God instead of actually offering an interpretation of the one I referenced):

Rom 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

This verse at the very least puts believing and confession on the same level and conditions salvation on the presence.  If we continue on past where you conveniently stop looking at context we see that the process must go as follows: one must have a preacher, then one must hear, then one believe, then one must call on Him (or confess).  So it is possible to make a case for the confession to be a fruit of faith (but there is nothing in the verse that makes this a necessity – it may be that they just follow one another).  But even if it is a fruit then we are left with salvation not being available until both faith and its fruit are present, as we are not given eternal life until we believe and confess.  So it appears salvation is conditional on faith and works and your doctrine which ties salvation to the very moment of faith, is inconsistent with itself.

This is why it is so important that you offer interpretations to both the verses I reference and the ones you provide as illuminatory, so we both can see if your doctrine can even interpret both of them in a self consistent way as in this case we saw it could not.

This does not mean a mute person will not be saved because they can not speak. "For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."

Of course not but the confession of a mute person is every bit a works as the confession of a speaking one.  Works are not merely physical activity – they are anything we might boast of if the situations was different and our intent was to use them to earn or merit salvation.  That is why those who feel that they have gained salvation based on the strength of their faith (and therefore others have missed it because their faith was not as strong) have turned their faith into works, and not the loving obedience we are instructed to either.

END OF PART 7

[michael_legna]

PART 8 OF 9

Follow Christ

John 10:27-28
But you don't believe, because you are not of my sheep, as I told you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give eternal life to them. They will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. (Joh 10:26-28)

Statement of fact. Nothing about working for salvation here.

Yes it is a statement of fact – that fact being that His sheep follow Him, not just believe in Him.  He in turn gives them eternal life, not just because they are His sheep but because they follow Him.  The works of following Him are shown once again to be a condition of salvation.

Live a Godly Life
2Peter 2:6, Rom 8:1
2Pe 2:1-22  But false prophets also arose among the people, as false teachers will also be among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, denying even the Master who bought them, bringing on themselves swift destruction.  (2)  Many will follow their immoral ways, and as a result, the way of the truth will be maligned.  (3)  In covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words: whose sentence now from of old doesn't linger, and their destruction will not slumber.  (4)  For if God didn't spare angels...and didn't spare the ancient world...(6) and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly;  (7)  and delivered righteous Lot, who was very distressed by the lustful life of the wicked  (  (for that righteous man dwelling among them, was tormented in his righteous soul from day to day with seeing and hearing lawless deeds):  (9)  the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptation and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment;  (10)  but chiefly those who walk after the flesh in the lust of defilement, and despise authority...But these, as unreasoning creatures, born natural animals to be taken and destroyed, speaking evil in matters about which they are ignorant, will in their destroying surely be destroyed,  (13)  receiving the wages of unrighteousness; people who count it pleasure to revel in the daytime, spots and blemishes, reveling in their deceit while they feast with you; ...These are wells without water, clouds driven by a storm; for whom the blackness of darkness has been reserved forever.  (18)  For, uttering great swelling words of emptiness, they entice in the lusts of the flesh, by licentiousness, those who are indeed escaping from those who live in error;  (19)  promising them liberty, while they themselves are bondservants of corruption; for a man is brought into bondage by whoever overcomes him.  (20)  [/b]For if, after they have escaped the defilement of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in it and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.  (21)  For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.[/b]

They had knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and had known the way of righteousness but turned back from the holy commandment delivered to them. They deny the Master who bought them. He paid for the sins of all men but is only those who believe in Him for salvation that partake of that promise. Nothing about working for salvation here.

So they knew the Lord and turned back so they no longer knew Him?  Does your doctrine allow for loss of salvation?  It can’t be that they knew Him and followed Him (before turning back) and yet did not have faith and were not saved.  Sodom and Gomorrah were burned (symbolic of hell) as an example to who?  Those who do not have faith?  No!  It was done as an example to those who do not do Godly works.  The message is clear- if you do not do Godly works you risk damnation because works of loving obedience are a condition of salvation just as faith is.

Rom 8:1-11  There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who don't walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.  (2)  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death.  (3)  For what the law couldn't do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did, sending his
(4)  that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.  (5)  For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.  (6)  For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace;  (7)  because the mind of the flesh is hostile towards God; for it is not subject to God's law, neither indeed can it be.  (  Those who are in the flesh can't please God.  (9)  But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man doesn't have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his.  (10)  If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness.  (11)  But if the Spirit of him who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man doesn't have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his.  If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness.  Nothing about working for salvation here.

You do not have to be in the flesh to walk after it.  We all sin after becoming Christians, anyone who says they do not sin is a liar (1 John 1 – which was written to believers).  As Christians we can be in Christ and still walk according to the flesh.  If we do this without repentance we risk condemnation.  Luckily if we confess our sins he is faithful to forgive us and the condemnation is lifted.  This condemnation is the opposite of salvation and so we see that works can cause us to lose the gift of salvation, as well as being a required condition for acceptance of the gift.

END OF PART 8

[michael_legna]

PART 9 OF 9

Be Converted

Mat 18:3-4, Mat 19:14, James 5:20, 1John 3:20-21
Mat 18:1-14  In that hour the disciples came to Jesus, saying, "Who then is greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven?"  (2)  Jesus called a little child to himself, and set him in the midst of them,  (3)  and said, "Most certainly I tell you, unless you turn, and become as little children, you will in no way enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.  (4)  Whoever therefore humbles himself as this little child, the same is the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven...(10)  See that you don't despise one of these little ones, for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven.  (11)  For the Son of Man came to save that which was lost.  (12)  "What do you think? If a man has one hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, doesn't he leave the ninety-nine, go to the mountains, and seek that which has gone astray?  (13)  If he finds it, most certainly I tell you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine which have not gone astray.  (14)  Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.

Mat 19:13-14  Then little children were brought to him, that he should lay his hands on them and pray; and the disciples rebuked them.  (14)  But Jesus said, "Allow the little children, and don't forbid them to come to me; for the Kingdom of Heaven belongs to ones like these."  

Whoever therefore humbles himself as this little child.

Yes! See you say it yourself.  We must humble (a work) ourselves (that we do outselves) to enter into heaven (to be saved).  There is a work we must do ourselves to be saved.

When we understand our need we will trust Christ for our salvation. If we trust in ourselves and our works then we will in no way enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

This verse says nothing like “When we understand our need we will trust Christ for our salvation”,  that is just you imposing your preconceived notions onto the verse.  It also does not say anything like “If we trust in ourselves and our works then we will in no way enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.”, that too is just you applying a concept from your doctrine onto a verse that is discussing a different issue.

Jam 5:14-20  Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the assembly, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord,  (15)  and the prayer of faith will heal him who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.  (16)  Confess your offenses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The insistent prayer of a righteous person is powerfully effective.  (17)  Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain, and it didn't rain on the earth for three years and six months.  (18)  He prayed again, and the sky gave rain, and the earth brought forth its fruit.  (19)  Brothers, if any among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back,  (20)  let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death, and will cover a multitude of sins.

“among you” does not necessarily mean they had believed in Christ for salvation.

Once again you broaden the context not to illuminate the verse I referenced but plainly with the intention of hoping it will get lost in the noise as your short terse comment on your broaden context does not even touch on the topic of the verse I referenced.

The verse being considered is James 5:20 which say if we turn (works) someone from sin we save their soul (salvation).  Once again we see that there are works we do that are conditional towards properly accepting the free gift of salvation.  

Luk 8:12  Those along the road are those who hear, then the devil comes, and takes away the word from their heart, that they may not believe and be saved.

Again you offer a verse with not interpretation after ignoring the verse I referenced above.  This approach shows you have no interest in see what God’s word has to say and prefer to show that you think some of the verses appear to contradict each other.

But the verse you offer does not contradict the one I provided.  I have shown the interpretation of my referenced verse and now I will show the proper interpretation of the one you suggest and these interpretations will agree with my doctrine and will be self consistent.  Neither of which you have been able to do with any of the verses through out any part of this discussion.

This verse is talking about those who are just being introduced into the faith and have not had time to sprout roots and strengthen and enliven their faith to protect against such attacks.  Satan must strike before such works occur to be successful in preventing faith from being perfected.   These type of children in the faith are not the same as those being discussed in James 5:20 so it is not relevant to this part of the discussion.

Rom 5:19  For as through the one man's disobedience many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one, many will be made righteous.

Another verse offered with out interpretation thus hiding the fact that your doctrine cannot self-consistently interpret the verses being discussed.

No matter I will provide the proper interpretation to it for you as well, showing that it can be consistently interpreted to fit my doctrine while we will have to remain in the dark as to how or if it fits into your doctrine.

This verse is talking about our righteousness being infused into us thanks to Christ’s sacrifice.  But this righteousness is not to be taken for granted.  We cannot just sit back and do nothing, and this verse does not say that we can regardless of how much you want to read that into it.  Christ taught us that we must pick up our cross DAILY and follow Him to be worthy of Him (Matt 10:38 and Luke 9:23).

1Jo 3:19-24  And by this we know that we are of the truth, and persuade our hearts before him,  (20)  because if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.  (21)  Beloved, if our hearts don't condemn us, we have boldness toward God;  (22)  and whatever we ask, we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do the things that are pleasing in his sight.  (23)  This is his commandment, that we should believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and love one another, even as he commanded.  (24)  He who keeps his commandments remains in him, and he in him. By this we know that he remains in us, by the Spirit which he gave us.

Joh 6:28-29  They said therefore to him, "What must we do, that we may work the works of God?"  (29)  Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."

I am glad you chose this verse for comparison to 1 John 3:23 even though you did as if to contradict 1 John 3:23 as if it isn’t really saying that we have to do works of love to obey His commandment.  I am glad you bring it up because by comparing these two verses we see that one is incomplete (John 6:29) in that it tells exactly the same thing as the complete one (1 John 3:23) except that it leaves out the part about loving one another.  Certainly we cannot analyze this difference to be due to the longer verse (1 John 3:23) as it adding something that is not true.

I will respond to the rest as time permits.

Please do – but when you do please interpret both your referenced verses as well as mine and don’t just try to contrast scripture against itself as it does not contradict.  When you do actually put your interpretations to both verses down side by side you may begin to see that the doctrine behind them is not even self consistent.

END OF PART 9
END

[michael_legna]

She loved Christ.

If that is all she did then she was disobeying God.

1 John 3:23  And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

and disobeying Jesus.

John 15:12  This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Second she is forgiven of her sins because she was repentant (though it is not mentioned in the verses quoted she also washed His feet with her tears).

She loved Christ. See above. 50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

What you point out is true but it does not make what I point out to be untrue, how could it as I am quoting from scripture too.  You cannot prove your interpretationof the verse you choose to reference is correct by refusing to interpret the verse I choose to reference and instead try to show that scripture contradicts itself.

Third she was forgiven of her sins but not told she would not haver to be repentant of future sins, or that she could stop loving God and others.  There is no promise of unconditional forgiveness of future sins in this story. , or any story in the scriptures.  That is why we are told to repent and confess our sins to have them forgiven.

She loved Christ.
50   And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

What you point out is true but it does not make what I point out to be untrue, how could it as I am quoting from scripture too.  You cannot prove your interpretationof the verse you choose to reference is correct by refusing to interpret the verse I choose to reference and instead try to show that scripture contradicts itself.

Notice the condition placed on forgiveness.  IF we confess our sins...

Notice the condition placed on forgiveness. Thy faith hath saved thee.....

What you point out this time is NOT true and so it certainly does not make what I point out to be untrue, how could it as I am quoting from scripture and you are inserting things into scripture that aren't there.  The verse you reference (concerning the woman washing His feet) in no places says that the condition placed on forgiveness is faith, while the verse I was referencing (concerning god being faithful to forgive us) specifically states a condition.

You cannot prove your interpretation of the verse you choose to reference is correct by refusing to interpret the verse I choose to reference and instead try to show that scripture contradicts itself especially by making things up.

[I_Believe]

Michael,

We see in the context of Rom 2:13 that you referenced that it is speaking to those under the law.  So we see that the following verses do apply to the context of this verse.

“we know that whatever things the law says, it speaks to those who are under the law”

Rom 2:12-29  For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without the law. As many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.  (13)  For it isn't the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be justified  (14)  (for when Gentiles who don't have the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves,  …(17)  Indeed you bear the name of a Jew, and rest on the law, and glory in God,  …(23)  You who glory in the law, through your disobedience of the law do you dishonor God?  (24)  For "the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you," just as it is written.  (25)  For circumcision indeed profits, if you are a doer of the law, but if you are a transgressor of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision…(28)  For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh;  (29)  but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not from men, but from God.

Rom 3:19-20  Now we know that whatever things the law says, it speaks to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be closed, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God.  (20)  Because by the works of the law, no flesh will be justified in his sight. For through the law comes the knowledge of sin.

Gal 2:15-16  "We, being Jews by nature, and not Gentile sinners,  (16)  yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law, because no flesh will be justified by the works of the law.

"Again you offer a verse with not interpretation after ignoring the verse I referenced above.  This approach shows you have no interest in see what God’s word has to say and prefer to show that you think some of the verses appear to contradict each other."

Scripture never contradicts itself and you know that I am not attempting to make it appear that it does.  I am showing more context to contrast with your interpretation.  You may not agree with it but there is no need to be dishonest about my motives.

Thank you in advance for a civil dialog.

[I_Believe]

“Again I am not saying that we work for our salvation. I am saying that works of loving obedience fulfilling the spirit of the law are necessary to truly believe in Christ. You cannot believe in someone while at the same time not believing what they teach and Christ clearly taught that we are to obey God.”

I fully agree that faith that does not give forth the fruit of obedience is not true faith and is nothing more than a mental assent.  By faith alone but not by “a faith” that is alone.  With true faith you are washed, you are sanctified, you are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and in the Spirit of our God.


2Co 13:5-6  Test your own selves, whether you are in the faith. Test your own selves. Or don't you know as to your own selves, that Jesus Christ is in you?--unless indeed you are disqualified.  (6)  But I hope that you will know that we aren't disqualified.

1Co 3:14-16  If any man's work remains which he built on it, he will receive a reward.  (15)  If any man's work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but as through fire.  (16)  Don't you know that you are a temple of God, and that God's Spirit lives in you?

Rom 8:9-16  But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man doesn't have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his.  (10)  If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness.  (11)  But if the Spirit of him who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you...(14)  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are children of God.  (15)  For you didn't receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption, by whom we cry, "Abba! Father!"  (16)  The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God;

If the Spirit is not testifying with your spirit then you know that you are not His.

1Co 6:9-11  Or don't you know that the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don't be deceived. Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexuals,  (10)  nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor slanderers, nor extortioners, will inherit the Kingdom of God.  (11)  Such were some of you, but you were washed. But you were sanctified. But you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and in the Spirit of our God.


“This is even a more direct display of the strawman you have chosen to attack rather than address my position. I am not claiming that these works merit salvation, that is merely the poor understanding Protestantism has always had of the Catholic position and so I understand why you slip into it when you do not pay close enough attention to what is being claimed but this failing does not make your argument any stronger.”


This is the real life application of the works mentality that I have personally witnessed in other Catholics.  Much of which has centered around the sacraments.  I’ll take your word for it that that is not how you view the spirit of Christ’s commands.


This account of sheep and goats parallels the account above we discussed in Matt 7:20-21 where those who cry Lord, Lord and do not do the will of God (loving works of mercy) are the goats and the sheep are those who follow Jesus and thus do works of loving obedience. So we have two verses which directly compliment each other, both saying the same thing – works play a role in salvation as much as faith does.

A thousand works will not produce faith in Christ but faith in Christ can produce a thousand good works that God created that we should walk in them.

Eph 2:1-10  And He has made you alive, who were once dead in trespasses and sins,  (2)  in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience;  (3)  among whom we also had our way of life in times past, in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the thoughts, and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.  (4)  But God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us  (5)  (even when we were dead in sins) has made us alive together with Christ (by grace you are saved),  (6)  and has raised us up together and made us sit together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus,  (7)  so that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.  (  For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God,  (9)  not of works, lest anyone should boast.  (10)  For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them.

[Heidi]

Michael, if salvation is by works then you are saying that Jesus is lying when he says that none of us is good. You are also disagreeing with him when he says; "Now eternal life is this; that you know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom He sent." He also said; "I can do NOTHING without my Father." Putting those phrases together, one has to first KNOW our Father in order to be saved and do good works. In addition, if we are not saved until  the magic number of works we do is reached (which is of course arbitrary to each individual), then what causes our joy, thankfulness, hope, patience, love, etc. that are the fruits of the spirit? How can one be thankful if he dies before he attains salvation? What has made us pure before God in order to be saved? Even though we do good works, what has taken away our envy, greed, lust, pride, sloth, wrath, and anger?

[michael_legna]

PART 1 OF 2

We see in the context of Rom 2:13 that you referenced that it is speaking to those under the law.  So we see that the following verses do apply to the context of this verse.

“we know that whatever things the law says, it speaks to those who are under the law”

Rom 2:12-29  For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without the law. As many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.  (13)  For it isn't the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be justified  (14)  (for when Gentiles who don't have the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves,  …(17)  Indeed you bear the name of a Jew, and rest on the law, and glory in God,  …(23)  You who glory in the law, through your disobedience of the law do you dishonor God?  (24)  For "the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you," just as it is written.  (25)  For circumcision indeed profits, if you are a doer of the law, but if you are a transgressor of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision…(28)  For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh;  (29)  but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not from men, but from God.

The context does refer to those under the law but lets see what it means by this under the law reference.  Verse 12 says that those who have sinned not knowing the law (in this case the letter of the law is clearly intended because we cannot sin unless we know what we are doing is wrong – so we all know the spirit of the law) are judged without the law.  In other words we are judged for our understanding of the spirit of the law not for some uncrossed "T" or undotted "I" in the letter of the law.  But those under the law were required to know all the details and live up to them if they wished to use the law to merit salvation.  And we both know once you go down that road you are doomed to failure.  

Why are both cases handled as they are?  Because as verse 13 says it is not enough to just hear the law and say it is a good thing, but we must do what we profess to be a good thing, otherwise we are not really putting our money where our mouth is, we are hypocrites.  We do not truly believe that the laws are good if we do not do them.  Our faith is false if we do not believe in the teachings as much as we claim to believe in the teacher.  

Verse 14 says that those not under the letter of the law become a law unto themselves in the sense that the law is written in their hearts.  They do not try to fulfill it legalistically but through mercy rather than sacrifice and they will be judge according to how well they live according to their understanding – this is called living your faith.

Verse 17 through 24 warns the Jews who gloried in the law as if it would save them (but yet disobeyed that law) were doing additional harm by making God out to be dishonorable for having chosen such a people as His own.

Verse 25 speaks of how circumcision is profitable (as an act of obedience) to those whose faith is strong enough in both God and His teachings to obey the law.  But when one transgresses the law even these acts of loving obedience lose their value because it is clear you don't really love God you were just going through the motions.

Verse 28 and 29 carries on this discussion talking directly to the issue of literal keeping of the law even circumcision verse a spiritual understanding and keeping of the law and circumcision.  In this discussion it clearly points out that it is much better to keep the spirit of the law.   One can even be a chosen people of God inwardly by following the spirit of the law rather than outwardly through keeping the letter of the law.

The point of all this?  The verse reference speaks to both, those who are under the letter of the law (which is not a place one wants to be) and those who are not under the letter of the law having become a law unto themselves by fulfilling the spirit of the law through love.  We know Christ did not do away with the law, and this would make no sense if it did not apply to someone.  But it can apply to some without them being under the law.  I guess the short answer is under the law means fulfilling the letter of the law and it leads to death or condemnation.  Fulfilling the spirit of the law through love as Christ taught us is not being under the law, but the law still applies.

Rom 3:19-20  Now we know that whatever things the law says, it speaks to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be closed, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God.  (20)  Because by the works of the law, no flesh will be justified in his sight. For through the law comes the knowledge of sin.

This is of course speaking about the letter of the law as I explain above.  Those under the letter of the law can only learn what is sin, and that knowledge does not lead to salvation because no flesh will be justified by attempting to merit the free gift through works of the letter of the law.  Those who fulfill the spirit of the law through love are not placing themselves under the law.  In fact one has to be under grace before one can understand this message of Christ's.

Gal 2:15-16  "We, being Jews by nature, and not Gentile sinners,  (16)  yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law, because no flesh will be justified by the works of the law.

"Again you offer a verse with not interpretation after ignoring the verse I referenced above.  This approach shows you have no interest in see what God’s word has to say and prefer to show that you think some of the verses appear to contradict each other."

Scripture never contradicts itself and you know that I am not attempting to make it appear that it does.  I am showing more context to contrast with your interpretation.  You may not agree with it but there is no need to be dishonest about my motives.

I know and was not serious about your motives I was making a point as to how it appeared.  Providing context especially from an unrelated area of another book of scripture when you neither interpret the verse I referenced nor the one you add does nothing to show how they two can be interpreted in a consistent manner which is what we have to have before we develop doctrine from either.

“Again I am not saying that we work for our salvation. I am saying that works of loving obedience fulfilling the spirit of the law are necessary to truly believe in Christ. You cannot believe in someone while at the same time not believing what they teach and Christ clearly taught that we are to obey God.”

I fully agree that faith that does not give forth the fruit of obedience is not true faith and is nothing more than a mental assent.  By faith alone but not by “a faith” that is alone.  With true faith you are washed, you are sanctified, you are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and in the Spirit of our God.

First I need to point out again that it is not faith that gives forth the fruit of obedience it is grace that yields both the fruits of faith and works.  One must not get grace and faith confused with each other.

What do you mean by faith alone then if not a faith that is alone?

2Co 13:5-6  Test your own selves, whether you are in the faith. Test your own selves. Or don't you know as to your own selves, that Jesus Christ is in you?--unless indeed you are disqualified.  (6)  But I hope that you will know that we aren't disqualified.

See!  Here we test ourselves, that is a work of ours.  How are we disqualified?  We are disqualified when Christ is not in us.  How do we get Christ to abide in us?  

John 15:4-12  Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.   I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.  If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.  If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.   Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.   As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.   If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.  These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.  This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

We get Christ to abide in us by keeping His commandments and His commandment is to love God and love one another.

END OF PART 1

[michael_legna]

PART 2 OF 2

1Co 3:14-16  If any man's work remains which he built on it, he will receive a reward.  (15)  If any man's work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but as through fire.  (16)  Don't you know that you are a temple of God, and that God's Spirit lives in you?

Yes this verse is referring a judgment that occurs after life is over and only to those who are saved.  We know that because verse 11 and 12 refer to these men having built upon the foundation of Christ and we then see that the works they did are tried by fire and those which were unacceptable are burnt away and they suffer because of it.  This is referring to the final purification before we go to heaven to be with God who cannot be in the presence of anything unholy or spotted.  This verse is why Luther's model of us as a dung heap covered by a fresh snow never made any sense to me.  It is describing the state Catholics refer to as purgatory.  It is not a salvation issue.  No one goes through this purification who is not saved.

Rom 8:9-16  But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man doesn't have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his.  (10)  If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness.  (11)  But if the Spirit of him who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you...(14)  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are children of God.  (15)  For you didn't receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption, by whom we cry, "Abba! Father!"  (16)  The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God;

If the Spirit is not testifying with your spirit then you know that you are not His.

Again this verse talks about the spirit of Christ in us (which we know from above requires that we obey His commandments).  If we are in the Spirit, in other words if Christ abides in us then our bodies are dead to sin (but that does not mean we do not sin – only that we do not sin unrepentantly).   This Spirit that dwells within us, will raise us up to life (salvation) and we are children of God (another reference to salvation).  We are not under the spirit of bondage to the letter of the law as a slave, but we are adopted sons doing works of loving obedience.  If we have this Spirit the Spirit testifies with our spirit (the two cooperate) that we are children of God.  How do these two Spirits testify?  Through our works (not of the letter of the law) of loving obedience which are fruits of the spirit but serve to perfect our faith.

1Co 6:9-11  Or don't you know that the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don't be deceived. Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexuals,  (10)  nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor slanderers, nor extortioners, will inherit the Kingdom of God.  (11)  Such were some of you, but you were washed. But you were sanctified. But you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and in the Spirit of our God.

Yes but this verse is not saying that we no longer will sin in those ways, only that we will not revel in those sins.  That if and when we sin in those ways we will be bothered by them and repent of them, confessing our faults and seeking forgiveness.  If we stop repenting and seeking forgiveness we like a dog go back to our own vomit and like a sow having been washed go back to wallowing.  If we revert to those behaviors (works) we have abandon and tossed aside the free gift.

“This is even a more direct display of the strawman you have chosen to attack rather than address my position. I am not claiming that these works merit salvation, that is merely the poor understanding Protestantism has always had of the Catholic position and so I understand why you slip into it when you do not pay close enough attention to what is being claimed but this failing does not make your argument any stronger.”

This is the real life application of the works mentality that I have personally witnessed in other Catholics.  Much of which has centered around the sacraments.  I’ll take your word for it that that is not how you view the spirit of Christ’s commands.

I would caution you not to judge the correctness of a doctrine by how those who claim it adhere to its principals.  Real life application is almost never proper regardless of whether the topic is religious or even secular.  That is just the attire of man.   Many Catholics do not have a proper understanding of the role works and faith play in accepting the free gift.  What is needed with them is not a change in doctrine but improved catechesis.  That being said I am not sure if you should give me that credit as I believe in the access to grace through the sacraments.  However it is not a meritorious access but merely one promised by Christ for our loving obedience.   Someone who participates in the sacraments in a legalistic literal fashion (much as the Jews tried to fulfill the law in the Old Testament) will not receive this grace, in fact they may incur wrath as Paul warns of those who participate in the Eucharist without discerning the Body of the Lord truly present in the bread.  That is why Catholics do not allow Protestants to receive the sacrament of the Eucharist because for them it would be a mechanical fulfillment of an instruction that goes much deeper since they do not believe in the true presence.

But I would disagree with you that the sacraments (when properly understood) reflect a works mentality in the sense of meriting salvation.  No Catholic should ever think that the sacraments merit them salvation.  The sacraments are Christ instituted as an outward sign of an inner transformation through the infusion of grace and as such we do them in loving obedience.  Confession is a clearer example of this.  We could go straight to God with our sins, but Christ told us to go to the Church with them (when He gave the Apostles the authority to forgive sins - John 20:23) so we obey Jesus' instructions and typically go to the priest to confess rather than directly to God in prayer.  None of this obedience merits us salvation anymore than faith merits us salvation.  But the scripture that repeatedly link works to salvation make it clear that works and faith together are the only proper method to accept the free gift.

This account of sheep and goats parallels the account above we discussed in Matt 7:20-21 where those who cry Lord, Lord and do not do the will of God (loving works of mercy) are the goats and the sheep are those who follow Jesus and thus do works of loving obedience. So we have two verses which directly compliment each other, both saying the same thing – works play a role in salvation as much as faith does.

A thousand works will not produce faith in Christ but faith in Christ can produce a thousand good works that God created that we should walk in them.

Eph 2:1-10  And He has made you alive, who were once dead in trespasses and sins,  (2)  in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience;  (3)  among whom we also had our way of life in times past, in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the thoughts, and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.  (4)  But God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us  (5)  (even when we were dead in sins) has made us alive together with Christ (by grace you are saved),  (6)  and has raised us up together and made us sit together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus,  (7)  so that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.  (  For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God,  (9)  not of works, lest anyone should boast.  (10)  For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them.

I agree that works does not create faith, but works do perfect faith and an imperfect faith is not a saving faith – for those with an imperfect faith are like those who waivereth or those who put their hand to the plow and look back.  They are not worthy of Him.

You also do not prove your point that works come from faith by the verse you reference.  The topic of Eph 2:1-10 is grace not faith.  It is discussing works that are the fruits of the spirit, either the spirit of the Satan or the spirit of God.  It is important not to confuse grace and faith.   Grace is the source of both our ability to seek God and believe and it is also the source of our ability to do good works.  Our part in both is the cooperation of our free will with this grace, as it is not forced on us but must be accepted.

END OF PART 2
END

[michael_legna]

Michael, if salvation is by works then you are saying that Jesus is lying when he says that none of us is good.

I have covered this for you before but here it is again.
This is a not literal statement that we can do no good because you will note that Jesus included Himself in that group.  The Son is a separate person from the Father in the Trinity and if only the Father is good (which is what a literal interpretation requires) then the Son is not good and we know that is not true.  So a strict literal interpretation is not what is intended.  So even though by nature we are not capable of good, once we are given the free grace of God we can do good.  The first thing we do when our free will begins to cooperate with this grace is to seek God and that in and of itself is a good thing.

You are also disagreeing with him when he says; "Now eternal life is this; that you know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom He sent."

It would help if you would use verse references when you want to quote scripture esepcially if your are going to do so from some non-standard translation as I could then show you what that verse means when read in context.  As it is I cannot find the actual verse to check the context however I am relatively certain that what we have hear is a verse that tells part of the story.

Just as John 6:29  "Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." would seem to support the same idea we need only look to 1 John 3:23  "And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment."  to see that John 6:29 is only telling part of the story.  The rest of what we must do to do God work is contained in 1 John 3:23.  They do not contradict one another - they supplement each other.  Once I know which verse you are referencing I will show you how the rest of scripture supplements it.  After all not all of God's wisdom and plan can fit into one verse now can it?

He also said; "I can do NOTHING without my Father." Putting those phrases together, one has to first KNOW our Father in order to be saved and do good works.

I do not disagree that we have to know our Father in order to be saved.  I do disagree that all we have to do to be saved is know our Father and your two verses do not say that it is all we have to do unless you read them in isolation refusing to let the rest of scripture supplement your knowledge of the issue.

In addition, if we are not saved until  the magic number of works we do is reached (which is of course arbitrary to each individual), then what causes our joy, thankfulness, hope, patience, love, etc. that are the fruits of the spirit?

I never said that salvation is based on some number of good works.  You are misrepresenting the doctrine of works and faith acting together to properly accept the free gift of salvation.

How can one be thankful if he dies before he attains salvation?

One can be thankful because one is saved currently, as long as one endures but final salvation is not assured until it is clear that we have endured and that is not determined until we die.  This is because accepting Christ does not take away our free will, and as we are still human, we can still fail.  

What has made us pure before God in order to be saved?

Those are two different questions.  We are made pure by the merits of Christ being infused into us through His sacrifice on the cross.

We are saved by our properly accepting the free gift (made available by that sacrifice) through our faith and works as it tells us in the scriptures.

Even though we do good works, what has taken away our envy, greed, lust, pride, sloth, wrath, and anger?

Nothing Christians still get angry still envy, still lust we just don't do them unrepentantly.

[I_Believe]

Hello Michael,

"What do you mean by faith alone then if not a faith that is alone?"

By grace you have been saved through faith and by faith we have access into this grace in which we stand.

Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God and perform good works, which God prepared before that we would walk in them.  God according to his mercy, saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit. Being justified by his grace, we who have believed should be careful to maintain good works that they may not be unfruitful.

Faith that does not produce fruit is dead.   There are no good works without us standing in grace by faith.

Faith is not a mental agreement it is assurance of things hoped for, proof of things not seen.  Faith is being fully assured that what he had promised, he is able also to perform. Faith produces fruit by the grace of God.

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Heb 11:1  Now faith is assurance of things hoped for, proof of things not seen.

Rom 4:20-21  Yet, looking to the promise of God, he didn't waver through unbelief, but grew strong through faith, giving glory to God,  (21)  and being fully assured that what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

Rom 10:9-10  that if you will confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.  (10)  For with the heart, one believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Rom 5  (1) Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ;  (2)  through whom we also have our access by faith into this grace in which we stand. We rejoice in hope of the glory of God.  

Eph 2:8-10  for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,  (9)  not of works, that no one would boast.  (10)  For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared before that we would walk in them.

Tit 3:3-14  For we were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.  (4)  But when the kindness of God our Savior and his love toward mankind appeared,  (5)  not by works of righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy, he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,  (6)  whom he poured out on us richly, through Jesus Christ our Savior;  (7)  that, being justified by his grace, we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.  (  This saying is faithful, and concerning these things I desire that you affirm confidently, so that those who have believed God may be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men;  (9)  but shun foolish questionings, genealogies, strife, and disputes about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.  (10)  Avoid a factious man after a first and second warning;  (11)  knowing that such a one is perverted, and sins, being self-condemned.  (12)  When I send Artemas to you, or Tychicus, be diligent to come to me to Nicopolis, for I have determined to winter there.  (13)  Send Zenas, the lawyer, and Apollos on their journey speedily, that nothing may be lacking for them.  (14)  Let our people also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they may not be unfruitful.

[michael_legna]

"What do you mean by faith alone then if not a faith that is alone?"

By grace you have been saved through faith and by faith we have access into this grace in which we stand.

Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God and perform good works, which God prepared before that we would walk in them.  God according to his mercy, saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit. Being justified by his grace, we who have believed should be careful to maintain good works that they may not be unfruitful.

Faith that does not produce fruit is dead.   There are no good works without us standing in grace by faith.

Faith is not a mental agreement it is assurance of things hoped for, proof of things not seen.  Faith is being fully assured that what he had promised, he is able also to perform. Faith produces fruit by the grace of God.

I still don't see you explaining the difference between faith alone and faith that is alone.  If you can't come up with a definition at least show me an example of faith alone and an example of faith that is alone so I might understand what how it is they are different.

As it is your discussion above seems to make the following points.

We are saved through faith and by faith we have access to grace.  Which I agree with but it does not say by faith alone or even by a faith that is alone.  So this statement and the verses it is paraphrasing does not seem to address the difference between these two concepts.

You say we are justified by faith and therefore we have peace and do good works, though I know of lots of scriptures that say we are justified a number of ways.  We are justified by grace (Rom 3:24), we are justified by doing the law (Rom 2:3), by our words (Matt 12:37), by humbling ourselves (Luke 18:14), by believing in Him (Acts 13:39) and by faith (Rom 3:28), and justified by works (James 2:21).  Of course these are just example and many other verses can be found to say these same things over and over again.  But the funny thing is none of them say that we are saved only by anything, especially not only by faith.  But there is one (and only one) verse in all of scripture that discusses the concept of being justified by only one thing, and then it is discussed in the negative – you know it – James 2:24  “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.”  So justification says nothing about the distinction you want to draw between faith alone and faith that is alone.

Our good works are primarily the fruits of grace or the Spirit (Gal 5:22 and Eph 5:9) not of faith.  In fact of the verses that discuss fruits, our bringing them forth ourselves, is hinted at four times (Matt 3:8, Luke 3:8 and John 15:16) compared to faith, which is never even mentioned in relation to fruits.

But even if this was true (that fruits came from faith) the statements again say nothing about the distinction of faith alone verses faith that is alone because it does not identify the faith mentioned as one or the other.

Heb 11:1  Now faith is assurance of things hoped for, proof of things not seen.

Rom 4:20-21  Yet, looking to the promise of God, he didn't waver through unbelief, but grew strong through faith, giving glory to God,  (21)  and being fully assured that what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

Rom 10:9-10  that if you will confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.  (10)  For with the heart, one believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Rom 5  (1) Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ;  (2)  through whom we also have our access by faith into this grace in which we stand. We rejoice in hope of the glory of God.  

Eph 2:8-10  for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,  (9)  not of works, that no one would boast.  (10)  For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared before that we would walk in them.

Tit 3:3-14  For we were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.  (4)  But when the kindness of God our Savior and his love toward mankind appeared,  (5)  not by works of righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy, he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,  (6)  whom he poured out on us richly, through Jesus Christ our Savior;  (7)  that, being justified by his grace, we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.  (  This saying is faithful, and concerning these things I desire that you affirm confidently, so that those who have believed God may be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men;  (9)  but shun foolish questionings, genealogies, strife, and disputes about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.  (10)  Avoid a factious man after a first and second warning;  (11)  knowing that such a one is perverted, and sins, being self-condemned.  (12)  When I send Artemas to you, or Tychicus, be diligent to come to me to Nicopolis, for I have determined to winter there.  (13)  Send Zenas, the lawyer, and Apollos on their journey speedily, that nothing may be lacking for them.  (14)  Let our people also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they may not be unfruitful.

None of these verses seem to say anything about the distinction between faith alone verses faith that is alone.  Perhaps if you offered an analysis or interpretation for these verses you reference I might more easily see what you mean by referencing them.

[Heidi]

I can see why you don't believe in faith alone, Michael. You have ZERO faith in God that He can save you. You think He needs A LOT of help on this one. You instead, put your faith in men to save themselves. When asked by His disciples who then can be saved, Jesus replied; "With man this is impossible. But with God all things are possible." Again, you don't believe him. A true Christians would not disagree with ANY of Jesus's words, much less many of them. Your beliefs disagree with Jesus's words about what eternal life is, they disagree with his words that none of is good but God alone, they disagree with his words it is impossible for man to save himself, you diagree with his words that Hs true sheep cannot be snatched out of His hand, you disagree with his words that the Holy Spirit will be with us forever, you disagree with his words when he said that he can do nothing without his father, and perhaps many more. True interpretations come from interpretations where ALL of scripture agrees. I suggest you start with Jesus's words because that's whom you worship isn't it?