death penalty right or wrong?

[Heidi]

Michael, you completely misunderstood what I was saying, as usual. When Jesus said to render to Caesar what is Caesar's he NEVER justified Caesar's decisions, nor did he not justify them. He only wanted us to submit to earthly authorities and render what belongs to the Stae, as the state's business and what belongs to God, as God's business.

I never said that the government doesn't make the decisions.! I said the exact opposite. The government HAS to make the deicisions for our country but that EACH one of us will decide how we personally we will respond to evil. No one can force me to kill someone. If the government wants to go to war, then it can. But each of us can respond to evil in the way that we think is best. But if a president takes it upon himself to turn the other cheek and risk the slaughter of his countrymen, he is then taking the decision to turn the other cheek out of the hands of each individual person. Some people don't want to turn the other cheek and the president is risking their lives for a decision that should be a personal one. Therefore, the best course for a president is the one that will save the most lives in the end because that is his responsibility.

God's vengeance is sometimes manifested through human action as in the OT. If we had simply stood back and let Hitler take over Europe, exterminate the Jewish race and eventually conquer America, what would that have accomplished? Sometimes passivity is the greater evil.

Ted Bundy was incarcerated and escaped to kill many more women. If all criminals are incarcerated then eventually the prisons will not be able to hold them all and many more will eventually escape. Some people to use the death penalty for vengeance. I see it as a protection of society.

[michael_legna]

Michael, you completely misunderstood what I was saying, as usual. When Jesus said to render to Caesar what is Caesar's he NEVER justified Caesar's decisions, nor did he not justify them. He only wanted us to submit to earthly authorities and render what belongs to the Stae, as the state's business and what belongs to God, as God's business.

I may have misunderstood you in the past but I don't think I did this time.  My point was that even though we are told to submit to earthly authorities as you point out, He did not intend for us to submit unconditionally.  That is why I said you had to do more of a proof to get me to accept that capital punishment was something we need to sumbit to or render unto the government.  We are still responsible for our own actions and choices and even the responsible for the support we put behind policies of our government.  That is why those soldier who say they were just following orders (whether in Germany or in Vietnam at Muy Li or recently in the US Army in Iraq torturing captive soldiers) have no real excuse even within their own chain of command on earth.

If this was a discussion of the govenrment requiring every second child conceived having to be aborted would you still claim we had to render unto caesar?  I hope not.  The issue of capital punishment is one which we are free (actually duty bound in my opinion) to fight and otherwise try to influence the government over.

I understand your concern over pacificism during war as possibly greater evil than the killing of innocents (which is all the soldiers over there are for the most part) on the other side of the battle lines, but I do not share that view.  Take it from someone who served six years in the US Navy at the end of the Vietnam conflict, war is a dangerous thing, not just for our physical well being but for our morality as well.

As Nietzsche said He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster.

[His_child]

Life long imprisonment is cruel to the criminal and to the tax payers who will have to support that criminal.

Many taxpayers, like myself, are barely making ends meet for our own families and you want us to provide room and board for someone because they committed murder?

Ideally one would not be able to escape from prison. However, we don't live in an ideal world (if we did there would be no reason for prisons at all) therefore, criminals (including murderers) escape and commit the same crimes again.

[michael_legna]

Life long imprisonment is cruel to the criminal and to the tax payers who will have to support that criminal.

Many taxpayers, like myself, are barely making ends meet for our own families and you want us to provide room and board for someone because they committed murder?

Ideally one would not be able to escape from prison. However, we don't live in an ideal world (if we did there would be no reason for prisons at all) therefore, criminals (including murderers) escape and commit the same crimes again.

I am not recommending the prison system as it exists today.  The prison system could be run cheaper and more securily than today by simply warehousing the prisoners who would never get out.  It is done in foreign countries all the time.

As for it being cruel - yes it would be crueler than today's prisons, but less cruel than capital punishment - which removes that person's last chance to accept Christ.  Through capital punishment you are confining that person's soul to a much nastier place than the prison cell I am envisioning for a lot longer period of time.

[His_child]

As long as that prison has windows or doors, the prisoner can find a way to escape.

As long as that person is in prison, the overburdened taxpayers will be punished as well.

[BlackmanX]

wrong.   totally wrong.  absolutely  wrong.  

[JudgeNot]

right.  totally right.  absolutely right.
 

[His_child]

As long as that prison has windows or doors, the prisoner can find a way to escape.

As long as that person is in prison, the overburdened taxpayers will be punished as well.

So it comes down to killing people to save money?  Very Christlike.

So it comes down to honest, hard working people not being able to provide a home for their families because they are paying for a murderer to have free room and board.
Very Christlike.

[child_of_God_2]

This isn't following anyone else's line of argument, but what if.....

well, what if someone is wrongly convicted? That has happened. The death penalty is pretty final; can't be reversed; at least imprisonment (while it can't be reversed) isn't final (unless the person dies in jail).

We don't have the death penalty, but because I am not entirely sure, I'm glad I wouldn't have to decide about it. I wouldn't want to be on a jury for a trial with the death penalty.

Gracey

Gracey,
I totally agree with you. I know that if I was on a jury and sentenced a person to death and after he/she was put to death found out the person was innocent, I couldn't live with myself. Knowing I had something to do with the death of an innocent person would always be on my mind. I also think that as long as the person is alive there is still hope that he/she will get saved. I am a strong believer in the battles of the mind. If it were someone in my family that got killed, I would want the person to spend the rest of his/her life in prison without the possibility of parole, because the person would have to think about what he/she did and know that there is no chance of EVER seeing the other side of the fence  or have freedom again. Who knows, the person may become roommates with someone called "Bubba" in there. lol

[Shammu]

To all of you thinking that the death penatly is right, I disagree. I will always disagree with y'all.
The death penalty is murder. What does the Bible say about murder.........
Exodus 20:13  God commanded, "Thou shalt not kill"
Galatians 5:19-21 "now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revilings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God."

[Kristi Ann]

AMEN!! DreamWeaver!!!!  


Remember all we are Not to Judge anyone at all!!!!!


Matthew 7:1-5

1 JUDGE not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye

Holy Bible -- King James Version


God Said it I believe it DONE!!!!!!


Blessings,   \o/

[Allinall]

Hmmmmm...God said not to kill.  Really?  What did He say?

Thou shalt not kill.

Exodus 20:13

Yet another wonderful translational problem.  The word translated kill is ratsach, which means...

1) to murder, slay, kill

a) (Qal) to murder, slay

1) premeditated

2) accidental

3) as avenger

4) slayer (intentional) (participle)

b) (Niphal) to be slain

c) (Piel)

1) to murder, assassinate

2) murderer, assassin (participle)(subst)

d) (Pual) to be killed

Here's the problem.  We've seen it translated kill and therefore take it to mean the killing is never God's plan.  In so doing, we neglect God's plan for eradicating the Promised Land of it's former inhabitants (noting of course that this was God's chosen form of judgment for those peoples) via the sword.  The Israelites were to kill everybody.  We forget that.

When God established His Law with His people, it was a tool by which they could see the depth of their sin.  But that Law also addressed social and political issues.  In this case, and reflected throughout history, the death penalty was enacted, and to be enacted in the form of governmental law.  For the Hebrews, God said...

Whoever takes a human life shall surely be put to death.

Leviticus 24:17

and

Whoever kills an animal shall make it good, and whoever kills a person shall be put to death.

But, you say, we are not under the Law but under grace.  Yup!  We are not under condemnation, but grace.  So all governments world wide should toss out the law books because we aren't under them anymore.  Right?

Can you imagine the chaos?  That's not what is meant by not being under the Law.  If I murder someone, I'm still guilty of sin.  I'm simply not condemned by God.  I'm chastened.  And depending on which state I'm in, will be chastened for the rest of my life in prison, or for a few years until I'm executed.  Murder is still sin with governmental consequences for that sin.

[Allinall]

AMEN!! DreamWeaver!!!!  


Remember all we are Not to Judge anyone at all!!!!!


Matthew 7:1-5

1 JUDGE not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye

Holy Bible -- King James Version


God Said it I believe it DONE!!!!!!


Blessings,   \o/

Hmmmm...then Paul disobeyed Jesus and commanded us to do likewise...

It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father's wife. And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.

For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did such a thing. When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. Let us therefore celebrate the festival, not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people-- not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler--not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. "Purge the evil person from among you."

Paul here pronounces and commands the execution of his judgment.  Get rid of the evil person!  Kick him out!  And why?  To restore him.  Ya know what?  It worked!  They obeyed Paul, and the sinful brother repented and came back...only they wouldn't let him back in!  So Paul writes them in 2 Corinthians to let the fellow back in.  The first recorded instance of church discipline, predicated by believers judging one another and acting upon it accordingly.

But this goes in direct disobedience to what Jesus said!  Right?  Actually, wrong.  Jesus point was that we need not go around pronouncing judgments on our brothers sinful viewing habits when we have 6 affairs currently happening.  Or pronouncing judgment on our sisters gossiping when we have slandered good men out of jobs and good report.   We are to first take the telephone pole out of our eyes...not so that we can't help or judge our brother ever.  NO!!  Not what He says.  He says...

Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

If my brother's speck is a sin, and I'm not to judge it as one, then how am I to help him it get rid of it as Jesus says here?  You miss the point.  Judgment is expected, so long as it is right.  How does one make his judgment right?  Simple.  He let's God show him what's right via His Word.  "Thou shalt not commit adultery".  If my brother is committing adultery, he's gotta telephone pole in his eye, and I need to judge that, according to God's view of that sin, and restore that brother by helping him in the spirit of meekness because I'm no better than he is.

 

[Shammu]

I just finished reading this thread, I'm glad Lizzie is by my side. This thread is very personal to me in ways most people would never understand. Lizzie knew my late wife, they were friends. All these years later, I stand with what I said and believe.

Edited to add: I should say Sue, since we have been married she likes me to use her middle name.