Am I Going to Heaven ?

[Heidi]

There are many times in the bible when it talks about being chosen from the beginning. If that is true, which it must be if it's in the bible, then those who are chosen WILL DEFINITELY BE  in the book of life. Otherwise, God would have been wrong in choosing that person. Since He is in control of the universe, He will make sure that that person hears the word of God. Jesus said; "Are not 2 sparrow sold for a penny? yet I tell you that not one of them falls to the ground without the will of my Father." Our will is not stronger than his will. Therefore, all of his chosen will be saved, "except the one doomed to destruction so that scripture will be fulfilled." This includes children as well as adults. If a person's name is not written in the book of life, then he is not chosen, regardless if he is a child or an adult.

Most of us have a hard time thinking that some are chosen and others are not. We want everybody to be saved. But Jesus said; "few will be saved." That is simply a fact. In order for us to think He is a fair God, we then want to think that the person Himself rejected God because no loving God would keep someone who wants to go to heaven from entering. But that's exactly the point! The ones who want to enter heaven have been chosen. And believe me, the ones who don't want to enter heaven, DON'T WANT TO ENTER HEAVEN! I've met MANY of them on atheists forums. They are proud of the fact that they don't believe! God wants everybody to hear his word and would love it if everybody had the capacity and desire for Him. But He knows that most people are too attached to this world and cannot admit their own sin. He knows the hearts of each on of us.

[Gracey]

2Pe 3:9  The Lord is not slow concerning His promise, as some count slowness, but is long-suffering toward us, not purposing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Mat 20:16  So the last shall be first, and the first last, for many are called, but few are chosen. (chosen here does not refer to those in "the book of life" - you really must read with understanding)

Luk 13:23  And one said to Him, Lord, are the ones being saved few? And He said to them,
Luk 13:24  Strive to enter in at the narrow gate. For I say to you, many will seek to enter in and shall not be able.  Christ here tells them to "strive" to enter the narrow gate; what does strive mean? It doesn't mean they are automatically given entrance to heaven. It means we have to make a choice.

Act 13:48  And hearing, the nations rejoiced and glorified the Word of the Lord. And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

and lastly:

1Ti 2:3  For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4  who will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5  For God is one, and there is one Mediator of God and of men, the Man Christ Jesus,
1Ti 2:6  who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

that word "all" is pretty inclusive. One dictionery give this:

To a complete degree or to the full or entire extent ('whole' is often used informally for 'wholly')


You might also, if you are interested in learning something, read all of Titus.

May the grace and peace of our Lord be upon you.

Gracey

Mat 22:29  Jesus answered and said to them, You err, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God.

[Heidi]

Very definitely God wants none to perish. But as i posted in another thread, we can only come to Him if we DESIRE Him, not if it's forced. Therefore, God has to allow Satan to rule the air. He has to make us accountable so that we do not feel forced into loving Him. It is as painful for God to watch us kill ourselves through drugs, speeding, STD's, etc. as it is for parents to watch their children do the same thing. That is what He means by wishing that none will perish. But there is no other way for us to Desire Him except through pain in the same way there's no way for our children to believe what we tell them except by the consequences of their actions.

Christ is telling men to desire God more than the devil just as we parents strive to give our children good values. Christ is giving us the path to God just as we want to give those same values to our children. He's not going to tell us to enter through the road that leads to destruction! Of course He will tell us that! But a child cannot "decide' to understand that which he does not understand. His understanding comes from the consequences of his behavior and accepting responsibility for them. That's how we all learn.

[Gracey]

But as i posted in another thread, we can only come to Him if we DESIRE Him, not if it's forced.

Also in another thread you posted that God allows the pain and suffering so that we will desire Him. Don't you call that being forced? (Please don't take this the wrong way - I am trying to have conversation, not make condemnation.) To me, that is certainly being forced. And I don't believe that God forced me to choose him.... not through pain, nor suffering, nor Satan. Unless you call being loved unconditionally, even when I make horrendous mistakes, being forced.

He has to make us accountable so that we do not feel forced into loving Him.

You also indicate elsewhere that we don't have free will, and if you believe that, then how can we be made accountable for something we haven't freely chosen?

Quite possibly I have misconstrued the meanings in these various posts. Sometimes it's difficult to write out what we mean so that others will understand it correctly (I often have this problem).

Christ is telling men to desire God more than the devil just as we parents strive to give our children good values. Christ is giving us the path to God just as we want to give those same values to our children. He's not going to tell us to enter through the road that leads to destruction! Of course He will tell us that! But a child cannot "decide' to understand that which he does not understand. His understanding comes from the consequences of his behavior and accepting responsibility for them. That's how we all learn.

Christ has already given us the path....through him. But I do agree, understanding of many things comes from the consequences of our behaviour, but some understanding only comes from the spirit dwelling within us. For instance, I really don't understand hell fully (oh sure, I know enough to not want to go there), but to really understand what it's like....I can't possibly. I know it's bad because God says "lets not go there" and because I trust Him and love him and am obedient to him (because I so chose to be) I say "right on dude - not going there".


Praise Him!
Gracey

[Heidi]

First of all, Gracey, I do not think you are being argumentative. i think you are a true seeker who wants to understand God's word.

I'll give you another example. If you're being tortured by an oppressor who said that if you don't tell him what he wants, he will continue to torture you. You will continue to endure it to the degeree that you don't want to tell him what he wants. But as soon as the pain becomes more unbearable than telling him the truth, the truth will begin to look awfully good to you. You might even feel relieved to tell him. It is even better with God because once you come to Him, then the benefits of His love will far surpass anything you had previosuly received. You held back from your torturer as long as YOU decided. You still felt inside that it was your choice even though you were motivated by pain. It is the same with God. There are MANY people who suffer daily, but their fear of coming to God is stronger than their desire to rebel against Him. That's why none of us comes to God unless we have no other choice. It is not a free choice, but instead, our least stressful option. But only WE know inside of us what that bottom line is. That's why people who go against God's word are called rebels. Only after they see that their "choices" aren't working, will they seek the wisdom of a higher authority. That degree is different in each of us. Some people would rather die than admit the fact that there is a power higher than themselves, but they are accountable for their actions. That is why God allows sin in our lives. He wants us to see that, by ourselves, we have no answers! All of us have to find that out for ourselves through pain. Again, there can be no grace without sin.

All of us think as little children. As children we are convinced at times that we know better than our parents. Then when we become parents ourselves, we realize that our parents, most of the time knew what we were up to.  That is how God sees us. Like children, we go around believing that we have free choices, that God is not in control of our lives and doesn't know what we are up to. But in reality, He knows exactly what we are up to and why we do what we do. He knows our hearts far better than we do! He knows what we can bear and what we cannot bear. It is for that reason that God knows who is chosen to come to Him and who isn't. "No one can come to me unless the Father draws him." Those are Christ's words.  We need to believe we have free will. We can resist God as long as we want to. If we are being drawn by Him, then our resistance will bother us tremendously. If we are not being drawn, then we could care less where we spend eternity. God's knowledge of whom He draws and whom He does not draw is based on His knowledge of what each of us can handle. Believe me, a man like Hitler was far more interested in worldly power than eternal life. That worldly reward was worth his life and the lives of others to him. There are many like him who scoff at the word of God in favor of the pleasure of sin. Wild horses couldn't bring them to God. God doesn't waste His time on them. When asked by the disciples why Jesus doesn't show Himself to everyone, Jesus replied, :"If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him." Only God knows the heart of each man which is why it is His sovereign choice who is called and who is not.

[Warrior For Christ]

BY TERENCE D. MCLEAN


WHAT THE GOSPEL AIN'T

'Vance Hanver was well into his eighties when I met him. By then, he had been an evangelist for over 70 years and had held meetings in thousands of churches, in every state, and in several other countries.

Havner had written ten books after he had reached 65 years of age and was respectfully called "God's Will Rogers" because of his wit and wisdom.

After a meeting in Dayton, Havner said to my wife and me that "Probably two thirds of the members of the average church are not really Christians and will end up in hell"

B. R Lakin was called the "Prince of Preachers" and he was Jerry Falwell's mentor. His pulpit ministry was world wide for over five decades. Presidents, prime ministers, kings and sheiks were among the millions who heard Lakin's deep raspy voice preach.

After a meeting in Dayton, Lakin said to my wife and me that "Three quarters of America's church membership will never see heaven" but would instead burn in hell.

Two ,great men, then, with over 100 years of preaching experience between them, testified to me personally that between 66 and 75% of church members were not really converted Christians on their way to heaven.

The very thought gives pause: what is the problem?
After all, these notable preachers were not talking about the atheists, agnostics or the ambivalent, but church members.
Now, I have held meetings in a relatively small number of churches, maybe 200 or so. No books bear my name and I don't even have a dog named Prince, but I have kept in mind what those great men said to me so many years ago, and I have put some things together which may shed some light on the question.

First, it must be noted that the Bible in my hand says "The gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation" (Ro. 1:16), not our good works (Ep. 2:8,9) or our righteous lifestyle (Ti. 3:5) or our baptism (1 Co.1:17).

Second, the Bible also states that the gospel, "by which also ye are saved..." is that "Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; and that he was buried and that he rose again on the third day." (1 Co. 15:1a4)
That is all pretty straight forward and simple.
But nobody likes to be told that he is a sinner and must trust what someone else did to make amends.

Observation tells me that if those two great evangelists were right, that most church members are not really saved, there might just be a pretty straight forward and simple reason.

Instead of being told to trust the finished work of Jesus Christ, people are instead being instructed to come forward and make a commitment, or to sign a card, but that is not the same thing.

Others are told to pray through and I was at one meeting where a potential convert had come forward and one altar worker was telling them to 'let go' while another altar worker on person's other side was telling them to 'hang on."

Popular today is to "Open your heart's door and let Jesus into your heart;" but that is not the gospel either: hearts do not have doors, and no verse in any Bible says that Jesus wants into the heart.

Many have the idea that Christianity is joining a church or giving money, but none of those things are included in the gospel of salvation.

It should be obvious that if a man can do things to earn his trip to heaven, Jesus Christ wasted His time on Calvary's cross. In fact, His death was for our sins, His burial was payment for the wages of sin, and His resurrection demonstrated victory of death and hell. Those items are the elements of the gospel. Faith in what Jesus did, then, is what saves.

It could not be much simpler, but maybe that is the problem. Mankind tends to reject simple solutions, especially when such solutions declare man's best efforts worthless in the face of what God, in Christ, has already accomplished.

[Heidi]

Amen, Warrior! I agree with you 100%! Jesus said that FEW will enter heaven but many think they're saved. This is why I've come out so strongly gainst the church. I realize that if Jesus said that few will be saved, then few will be saved REGARDLESS of how much we Christians witness. But I cannot think of anything more important in life than to pass on his words. Most churches teach we are saved at water baptism. This is not what Christ teaches. It is a sad fact how few Christians even KNOW Christ's words, much less care about them! They just show up at church thinking that will save them. True seekers will not only seek the truth from the ONE man who knows it, but they will see it as their greatest treasure. Others will pay Him lip service when their hearts are far from Him. We born again Christians are a lonely bunch. But then Jesus was the loneliest man whever  lived because ont ONE soul on earth knew what He was talking about until they received the Holy Spirit. So I guess we born again Christians are in good company.

[Gracey]

Which verse are you referring to when you make this statement:

Jesus said that FEW will enter heaven but many think they're saved.

Is this the verse?

Mat 20:16  So the last shall be first, and the first last, for many are called, but few are chosen.

If so, there are many commentaries on this; here is only one of them (but they all make a similar reference to the meaning of the parable this verse is found in).

Many be called, but few chosen - The meaning of this, in this connection, I take to be simply this: “Many are called into my kingdom; they come and labor as I command them; many of them are comparatively unknown and obscure; yet they are real Christians, and shall all receive the proper reward. A few I have chosen for higher stations in the church. I have endowed them with apostolic gifts or with superior talents, and suited them for wider usefulness. They may not be as long in the vineyard as others; their race may be sooner run; but I have chosen to honor them in this manner, and I have a right to do it. I injure no one, and have a right to do what I will with my own.” Thus explained, this parable has no reference to the call of the Gentiles, nor to the call of aged sinners, nor to the call of sinners out of the church at all. It is simply designed to teach that in the church, among the multitudes who will be saved, Christ makes a difference. He makes some more useful than others, without regard to the time which they serve, and he will reward them accordingly. The parable teaches one truth, and but one; and where Jesus has explained it, we have no right to add to it, and say that it teaches anything else. It adds to the reason for this interpretation, that Christ was conversing about the rewards that should be given to his followers, and not about the numbers that should be called, or about the doctrine of election. See Mat_19:27-29.

Or is it this one you mean?

Luk 13:23  And one said to Him, Lord, are the ones being saved few? And He said to them,
Luk 13:24  Strive to enter in at the narrow gate. For I say to you, many will seek to enter in and shall not be able.

Explanations of this verse in two commentaries say:

Are there few that be saved? The same question is often asked now. Christ never answers it, but bids the questioner to look out for his own salvation.

Strive to enter in by the narrow door. The language implies that effort, earnest, agonizing is necessary. The word "strive" in the Greek is the one from whence our word agonize comes.

The narrow door. The door of the kingdom is so narrow that we cannot take our sins, our lusts, our worldliness and worldly pleasures in with us.

and on this, another commentary says:

Are there few that be saved? - It was the prevalent opinion among the Jews that few would enter heaven. As but two of all the hosts that came out of Egypt entered into the land of Canaan, so some of them maintained that a proportionally small number would enter into heaven (Lightfoot). On this subject the man wished the opinion of Jesus. It was a question of idle curiosity. The answer to it would have done little good. It was far more important for the man to secure his own salvation, than to indulge in such idle inquiries and vain speculations. Our Lord therefore advised “him,” as he does “all, to strive” to enter into heaven.

Or, have I missed it? (The verse you are referring to, I mean).

Jesus also says that "the harvest is plentiful"....why would he say that, if it wasn't?

Luk 10:2  Then He said to them, The harvest truly is great, but the laborers are few. Therefore pray to the Lord of the harvest that He may send forth laborers into His harvest.

And also, I wonder about this statement you made:

I realize that if Jesus said that few will be saved, then few will be saved REGARDLESS of how much we Christians witness.

There wouldn't be much point in witnessing at all if only "a few will be saved". The potential for a great number of people to be saved exists, else why would we have been given "the great commission"? Or why would the harvest be plentiful?

Jesus also says that we will do greater things than him...

Gracey

[Heidi]

Again, Jesus said, "few will enter the kingdom of heaven. I believe Him. Who do you believe? Jesus or the commentaors' opinions?

[Gracey]

Heidi,

you must (yes, I'm sure you do   ) understand that we cannot take the text of the bible and pull only bits from it. Yes, I do most certainly agree Jesus said those words. But you know that he spoke and taught in parables. Those parables have a meaning beyond the immediate words. He did not expect the apostles, nor us, to take them literally. He gave us the key to unlock the meaning of the parables.

His words are as appropriate today, as yesterday and as they will be tomorrow if we apply them correctly.

Must I answer this:

Who do you believe?

Of course I believe Jesus Christ... but if you take all of the words so literally you would have nothing but contradiction in the bible. I believe you, yourself (in another post) said something quite similar.

I have in fact studied a number of these commentaries and compared with the bible; with my own spiritual understanding, and have come up with a similar meaning. I don't take any man's word for it. The bible tells us to prove all things against it.

Grow in Him!
In HIM and HIM alone!
Gracey

[Heidi]

Matthew, 7:13, "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter throught it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." Are those words not true? Is he lying? Will many find it? If many find it, then he'll have to take his words back which would, of course, make him a liar. Is that not true?  

[Gracey]

Matthew, 7:13, "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter throught it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." Are those words not true? Is he lying? Will many find it? If many find it, then he'll have to take his words back which would, of course, make him a liar. Is that not true?  

I believe I already explained to you the meaning of this, but you apparently have your own explanation.

You have a habit of making only a "literal translation" of verses when it suits your belief. I have already mentioned that Christ taught and spoke in parables, which I know you already know. The problem is you fail to apply it correctly.

You are very daring to insinuate that what is in my spiritual understanding (so given by my Saviour) is a lie. Who dares to call Christ a liar? So far, it has not been I.

cheers
Gracey

[Brother Love]

Looking For Grace

An Original Poem

by Edward B Yarber, Jr
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

How do you go looking for grace?

Is it found in a handshake or smiling face?

Do you look in a bush or rocks that turn over?

Is it under the bed or books without covers?

Is it all handmade or something you buy?

The answer is simple, you must see

It’s found in God’s Word,

Meant for you and me.

You find it in the Bible in many a part,

But with one apostle, that’s where we’ll start.

It’s a free gift of god, an unmerited favor,

No points that are on any behavior.

It’s based on faith ( that’s something unseen),

Grace is found a Calvary

Where He died for you and me.

 
 

[Brother Love]

"TO MAKE ALL MEN SEE"
(Ephesians3:9)

GOD'S TOTAL FORGIVENESS


The Problem of Unresolved Guilt

Guilt is that moral sense of blameworthiness that we all feel when we know that we have done wrong. Guilt produces feelings of shame, rejection, unworthiness, and low self-esteem. We deal with feelings of guilt with our fellow man, but we also have the problem of our guilt before God. The Bible states mans universal problem of guilt before his creator in Romans 3:19,

"Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and ALL THE WORLD may become guilty before God."

How can we resolve our problem of guilt before a holy and righteous God? How do we gain the total forgiveness of God?

A Faulty Answer!

Some feel that confession of our sins is the answer. Many either "go to confession" periodically, or "go through a confession process" at the end of the day, in an attempt to wipe the slate clean before God, only to have the slate get dirty again and again - thus creating a cycle of guilt, confession, and then forgiveness, which is repeated, over and over again. This doesn't really solve the problem of guilt, but just makes them feel better for a short time.

This is a very discouraging process, for because of it's repetition, it actually increases our awareness of our failures and short comings! It is like putting a large pot under a hole of a leaky roof. As long as we keep changing the pot when it fills up, we feel a little better, but we haven't solved anything, and our repeated action puts us constantly aware of the problem.

What we wind up doing is putting ourselves in bondage to a leaky roof! So it is with the confession process. As long as we keep confessing our sins, we feel a little better, but have not really solved our problem of sin and guilt! We are actually increasing our bondage to our sins! We would not accept a carpenter bringing us a larger pot to fix our leaky roof, and we should not accept a temporary solution to our sin problem, that is not really a solution at all! Yet this is exactly what we do when we believe we must keep our sins confessed before God to gain His forgiveness!

It should be noted that at one time in the Bible, when God was dealing with the nation of Israel under the law Moses, He did require the confession of sins. The Levitical priest served as an intercessor between the individual and God. But the law was to be a schoolmaster to point them to Christ! The law of Moses was given, not as a means for salvation and forgiveness, but rather to bring them to a clear realization of their sin and guilt! That is why, after pointing out in Romans 3:19 that all the world is guilty before God, we read in Romans 3:20,

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in His sight, FOR BY THE LAW IS THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN".

This confession process is actually a form of legalism, that, rather than solving the problem of sin and guilt, actually puts us in greater bondage to it! When we read in 1John 1:9 that,

"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness,"

we are reading a passage that is from the pen of the apostle John, one of the 12 apostles to the nation of Israel. In their program, Israel had a responsibility to confess their sins in order to be restored to a favored position with God! This was true on a personal level, (see Leviticus 5:5, 6), and on a national level as well, (see also Leviticus 26: 40-42).

Today, when we go back to the principal of, "if we confess, then God will forgive," we are going back to a system that was never intended to relieve guilt, but rather expose it! We are also just going to increase our awareness of our guilt, and not really do anything to relieve it! Should God forgive us just because we ask Him to, especially when He knows we will just do it again? God cannot just let us off the hook. His righteousness won't allow it!


The Answer is in God's Total Provision!


The answer to the problem of our guilt before God is found only in the total provision that God Himself has already provided! Sin can't be overlooked, it must be paid for! The Mosaic law and it's priesthood pointed toward a one-time, all sufficient, sacrifice that would completely and totally satisfy the justice of God! That sacrifice was offered on a hill outside Jerusalem called Calvary, in the person of Jesus Christ! God offers us total forgiveness, for every sin, past, present, and future, when we place our faith, not in the confession of our sins, but in the one-time payment for them on the cross of Jesus Christ!

"Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation, (a fully satisfying sacrifice!), THROUGH FAITH IN HIS BLOOD, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past...." Romans 3:25

"In whom we have redemption THROUGH HIS BLOOD, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace." Ephesians 1:7

"...having forgiven you ALL (past, present, & future) trespasses." Colossians 2:13

God has replaced the confession process and it's short-term results, with the riches of His grace in Jesus Christ! God's total forgiveness is available to you, by simply making that personal individual decission to trust in the finished work of Christ! It is that simple!

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

Trust Christ today and receive God's total, onetime remedy, for all your sin and guilt before Him!

If you are saved, you don't have to confess your sins to keep the slate clean and regain God's forgiveness. You already have it, fully and totally! (Ephesians 1:7). Rather than pray to confess your sins, acknowledge them, and thank Him for the total forgiveness He has already granted you in Christ! Then let His total and complete forgiveness free you from your guilt, and motivate you to faithfully serve Him!


by Pastor Ted Fellows



Posted By Brother Love

[Ambassador4Christ]

"THE OBEDIENCE OF FAITH"





Some suppose that somehow, in the final analysis, their "good works" will outweigh the bad works they do and God will accept them into His heaven. But is it good works that save?

Of the first two children born into this world, Cain brought of the fruit of the ground--that, which his works had produced--with which to worship the Lord, while Abel, his brother, offered the sacrificial lamb that God required.

"By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh" (Heb.11:4).

God rejected Cain’s offering because he had not obeyed the Lord God. But a far greater sacrifice than Abel’s has been offered on our
behalf. "CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS"  (ICor. 15:3). Now the question must be asked, Have you believed the Lord in this? As long as men continue in unbelief, and reject the Lord Jesus Christ as their Saviour, they will remain angry and bitter and wicked sinners in the sight of a thrice Holy God.

Such are the deeds of those who place their will over the written Word of God, as their evil doings are reported daily over radio, TV and in our newspapers.

But God is able to turn "the wickedness of men" into the greatest good, as we have seen. For, when wicked men crucified the Lord, little did they know "that God was in Christ, RECONCILING THE WORLD UNTO
HIMSELF, not imputing their trespasses unto them..." (IICor.5:19). Little did they know, that this event in history--the crucifixion of Christ--would bring "to nought" all this world’s wisdom. Little did they know, that God had a secret eternal purpose in Christ:

"Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory" (ICor.2:.

Study God’s Word, especially the Epistles of St. Paul, and discover that Christ IS the great Victor over sin, death, the grave, and hell.
You will also be rejoicing in all that He accom-plished on Calvary’s cross--"the salvation, which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory" (IITim.2:10), and His "more excellent  sacri-fice", to which all the types and shadows pointed.

"The preaching of the cross" constitutes the obedience of faith today. It is therefore faith, and faith alone, in the finished work of Christ that saves:

"NEITHER BY THE BLOOD OF GOATS AND CALVES, BUT BY HIS OWN BLOOD HE ENTERED IN ONCE INTO THE HOLY PLACE, HAVING OBTAINED ETERNAL REDEMPTION FOR US" (Heb.9:12).

BY RUSSELL S. MILLER