Questions?

[Soldier4Christ]

Okokokok...point taken.  I'll shut up and be nice now.

 

I reread my post in light of the scripture you posted and it seemed I was a bit on the proud side.  At least I thought so.  That wasn't for me?  

Not my intention but if it was in your heart .......

 

My argumentation was sound, but my comments seemed prideful to me ("...I'm not simplistic...").  So I suppose, God used you to make me not get argumentative and more prideful.  Thanks.  

No thanks to me necessary, brother. It was the Lords doing not mine.

[Reba]

All   You just float around all the time... ....

++++++++++++

Esgotolgy (Sheesh) "end times stuff" matters to me because of how the different views see the Cross.

Was the Cross an after thought? Was it planned before the  foundation of the world? I view the Cross as the center of ALL history , not in years, as in importiance. As usual, for me this is off topic sorta......

[ollie]

Arpel:
I do agree with the scripture you have quoted and also, that Paul used the trem "dispensation" which is defined as "administration, stewradship" the nearest instance I might agree with, wherein he used this word to refer to a specific period in time would be his use of the word at Ephesions 1:10, refering to Christ's reigning during the Millenium as King of King's and Lord of Lord's.

This seems to put a lot of words in Ephesians 1:10 that are not there.


 Ephesians 1:10.  'That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:"

[Allinall]

All   You just float around all the time... ....

++++++++++++

Esgotolgy (Sheesh) "end times stuff" matters to me because of how the different views see the Cross.

Was the Cross an after thought? Was it planned before the  foundation of the world? I view the Cross as the center of ALL history , not in years, as in importiance. As usual, for me this is off topic sorta......

Rather be floatin' than sinkin' sister!  

That's a great reason to study it!  And I don't think you're off topic.  

[Allinall]

ARPEL,

Believe it or not, I do understand where you're coming from.  Namely, because I've spent a great deal of time there.  I, personally, found that, as Zakdar noted, being in that position had me making many minors, majors.  I'm not equating this particular doctrine with a minor.  I'm simply saying that it's great to get into it for study, and to agree to disagree with brothers in Christ.  But all to often some brothers in Christ will attempt to change your understanding on the basis of preconceived ignorance of the truths.  At the same time, the perceived ignorant brother is anything but, and has simply gained a different understanding.  Yet, those brothers will try to force feed the "truth" to these "ignorant" brethern...subsequently causing them to say "I'm not going to argue with you."  Why?  Because that's exactly where it goes.  Argumentation.  Discussion is good, so long as it remains discussion when minds are set.

Nevertheless, I'm glad you've joined and are sharing your views.  

His,

Kevin

[JudgeNot]

I view the Cross as the center of ALL history...

That is beautifully profound in it's simplicity, Reba.
God bless you and Amen.  The Truth is so obvious.  Amen again.

[ARPEL]

ARPEL,

Whether it is intentional or not your posts are starting to take on the appearance of a condescending tone simply because someone wishes not to discuss this subject with you. This is the very reason that I myself do not normally get involved into this subject because all to often it denegrates into unchristian like behaviour coming from some otherwise very good Christians. I would suggest refraining from such rhetoric. It would aid in a much better ability to continue in the subject.

Pastor Roger,

Nothing I have said is condencending nor insulting.

I was discussing the doctrine of Eternal Security with a pastor (elsewhere)l who, kept referring me to 70 some odd papers he had written on the subject being discussed.

He pointed out Judas Isacariot was saved and then lost his salvation.

His premise centered around Judas's salvation being sealed because he was numbered with the 11 apostle, chosen by Jesus and  was amazed when I pointed out to him that Judas Iscariot never believed in Jesus to the saving of his soul, but perished  in his sin of unbelief (this is a well  documented fact.)

At that point he (the pastor) became abusive and accused me of twisting scripture together with other claims, this is understandble, since you can imagine, if one was able to find a verse in scripture which destroys preconceived notions (as allinall points out) one would have to undue the work of the building being built upon the foundation of the Apostle's and Prophets, not to mention having to amend his writings, (I never read them, his discussion with me was enough to keep me from becoming interested in peeking).

So, you see,  I understand your concern, but be assured I am well able to defend my position, without the debate  degenerating into an argument which turns ugly.  I agree there is no need for this.

I believe a contributing factor to discussions leading up to arguments are the interjection of false or misleading information.

For instance, allow me to use this thread as an example;

You answered my query concerning Pre Tribulationism not being taught prior to the 19th century, using Morgan Edwards as an example of pre trib teaching prior to 19th century.

Another person pointed out the Pseudo Ephraim in the 4th century as evidence of pre tribulationism being taught in the church.

I firmly rebutted both points with factual evidence, neither were, nor have been considered pre tribulation teachings accepted nor advanced by giants of the faith, within the church prior to the 19th century.

Now, you take the position I am being condescending by pointing out this dissimination of false information, but nothing could be furthere from the truth.

I have an interest that my brothers and sisters in Christ know the truth, about false teaching being circulated within the church in these days, these are perilous times.

And this is the way it is done, by assumptions and pre assumptions, and pre concevied notions, (see I do agree with some here).

In the meantime those who read the false information, posted by some who should know better, (the unlearned, lazy, and young babes,) hear this things and just assume they are true.

Morgan Edwards, never taught Pre Tribulationism, at best he advanced Mid Tribulationism within the Baptist church.

and,

the Psudo Ephraim is FALSE, that is why it is entitled the "False Ephraim" (c 4th century, and it doesn't make any difference how many original copies are floating around).

As I understand it, FORUMS are for the purpose of discussing, exchanging ideas, disseminating factual information, in hopes of learning and being taught.

The dissemination of false information or spin should have no place in so much as the discussion of Christian doctrines.

Bringing up or accusing persons interested in getting at the truth, of being argumentative or condescending doesn help the cause. either.

It's Ok if you do bon't want to discuss this matter.

I understand.

God Bless,

"Let no man deceive you"

                                 Jesus, Mat 24:4


By the way?

What is this "Global Moderator", your title?

Where does one get it?

[Soldier4Christ]

Arpel,

First of all I want to say that most of your points I agree with. I believe in the post-tribulation myself. I still say that your posts were taking on a tone of a condescending nature. A good healthy discussion is good but sometimes can become overtly wrong in nature. That is my only concern is that this thread does not denegrate to that as this subject so frequently does amongst Christians causing undue division.

As for the "Global Moderator" title that is given to individuals by Admin so that certain individuals can moderate the forum to make it a better place for Christians to come to, to talk, worship together and have all around good fellowship.

[nChrist]

Arpel,

I'll put it bluntly and say that it appeared you were looking for a war instead of a discussion. I must also add that your stated opinions are not facts, just opinions. I would guess that's why nobody joined in a discussion with you.

NOW, curiosity is killing me. Is this the first time you have ever heard the term "Moderator"?        

Love in Christ,
Tom

1 Peter 2:1-3 NASB  Therefore, putting aside all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander, like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation, if you have tasted the kindness of the Lord.

[ARPEL]

Arpel,

First of all I want to say that most of your points I agree with. I believe in the post-tribulation myself. I still say that your posts were taking on a tone of a condescending nature. A good healthy discussion is good but sometimes can become overtly wrong in nature. That is my only concern is that this thread does not denegrate to that as this subject so frequently does amongst Christians causing undue division.

As for the "Global Moderator" title that is given to individuals by Admin so that certain individuals can moderate the forum to make it a better place for Christians to come to, to talk, worship together and have all around good fellowship.

Pastor Roger,

That,s Great I am happy we are in agreement.

God Bless,

[Soldier4Christ]

As I said, I agree with some of your points. It is my hope and my prayers that I am wrong and that Christians will not have to endure such tribulations. Time will tell.

As I posted before in this thread .....

1Co 4:5  Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
1Co 4:6  And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
1Co 4:7  For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

[ARPEL]

Arpel,

I'll put it bluntly and say that it appeared you were looking for a war instead of a discussion.

Your opinion based on appearances.

If you notice, my opening post made distinctions, and I posted factual information, you posted what you believe to be true, It never  appeared to me you were looking for a war, nor a discussion, you stated what you thought is true, but sounded unintrested is explaining the diference between Historic Pre Millennialism (the early church teaching) and the modern day Dispensational Pre Millennialism (begun in the 18th century).

I must also add that your stated opinions are not facts, just opinions. I would guess that's why nobody joined in a discussion with you.

Well, it is historicaly well established when and where the modern day Dispensational Premillenialism doctrine (also known as; The Pre Tribulation Rapture of the Church Doctrine) began, I stated the John Darby is known as the father of what today is known as the doctrine of Dispensational Pre Millennialism , that is an irrefutable fact, not an opinion.

See what I am saying, about the interjection of misleading or false information, my opinions were based on facts, not assumptions.

From what I gather it appeared to you, I assumed certain information I posted was based on my own pre concevied notion (as someone else, put it).

If this sounds condecending, forgive me, but we should not make off the cuff statements, unless we analyse what has been said, we should at least quote our sources (which I did), in the interest of discussing in good faith.

I never argued with you, at all, you were the one who brought up the word "argument" up, stating the dispensationalism was taught in the Old and New Testament
discounting the diferences between what the early church taught and what is taught today.

I respect your not wanting to discuss this matter, it just seemed to me, you wanted to make a point to discount what I had stated factually, without addressing the diferences and the why of them.

NOW, curiosity is killing me. Is this the first time you have ever heard the term "Moderator"?        

No not at all.

It's the global thing, as quick as PR was to crack the whip, when he thought I sounded condenceding, reminded me of uniformed officer with a stick.

Oh well I guess maybe my imagination was getting the best of me.


God Bless

[ARPEL]

As I said, I agree with some of your points. It is my hope and my prayers that I am wrong and that Christians will not have to endure such tribulations. Time will tell.

As I posted before in this thread .....

1Co 4:5  Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
1Co 4:6  And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
1Co 4:7  For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

Pastor Roger

Yes I like the letter to the Corinthians, my favorite is Romans, but I love the entire book.

I desire to do all that is written in it.

1 Cor 2
2  Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.

We should all study to show ourselves approved of God, rooting out false doctrine, for the day draws nigh.


2 Cor 4
1  Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
2  But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

God Bless

[Soldier4Christ]

It's the global thing, as quick as PR was to crack the whip, when he thought I sounded condenceding, reminded me of uniformed officer with a stick.

Oh well I guess maybe my imagination was getting the best of me.

Perhaps not. The old Navy Chief Petty Officer in me does come out once in awhile especially when it appears someone is looking for a fight.

 

[nChrist]

Arpel,

You posted nothing more than an opinion. It really doesn't matter if you can find someone who agrees with you - it's still just an opinion. Your so-called evidence is support for your opinion and only your OPINION.      

Here's some help for your most complicated question in this thread:

From Dictionary.com

glob·al
adj.

   1. Having the shape of a globe; spherical.
   2. Of or involving the entire earth; worldwide.
   3. Comprehensive; total.
   4. Of or relating to the eyeball.

All four are correct, depending on the context, but maybe you can form an opinion with this extra help.        

Holler if you are still confused and need more help.