Is It Right?

[BDoggy]

allinall, "It's your call, between your God and your conscience - His Holy Spirit"

what did you mean by this comment? It sounds like you are saying that our consciences and the Holy Spirit are the same. I do not, however want to put words in your mouth, so can you explain what you meant by this? our consciences are certainly not the same as the Holy Spirit. I mean, the Holy Spirit can and does use our conscience to convict us of sin, but the Holy Spirit is God, and I for one, would never make the claim that my conscience is God!

[Saved_4ever]

Where has saved_4_ever been? Either way, this should bring him out of hiding.

hehehehe I haven't even looked at the boards lately I've been busy doing other things.  Glad to see you still know where I stand.    Funny someone knew to give me an email buzz to let me in on it though.    I've done my research and have my conclusions, liberal translations are not for me.  I will not "shun" you for using otherwise but I will not "pat you on the back" and say "whatever floats yer boat".  Hopefully the LORD will clue you in.  To claim ONLY the Hebrew and Greek texts matter is to say that God had no intentions of anyone else to have his word save the highly educated.  It also makes some verses of non effect.  Here are but a few. Mat 24:35  Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Mar 13:31  Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Luk 21:33  Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.  

If one has the best no need to mess with the rest.  The KJV was good enough for just shy of 300 years it's good enough for me.  Getting aquainted with English that's not so far off from current and much more perfect (thee thou etc) is a heck of a lot easier than learning 2000 ywaer old greek which is SO much different than english it's not even funny.

The Jordan, as I’m sure you know, is a mess.

No actually I didn't and I can't imagine it's been that way for long.  My grandfather was baptized in the Jordan which gave him a special prefix to his name (hazit) making my baptized family name hazitstamatis which was changed to stamis when he arrived in America.  I can't claim the Hazit prefix as I was baptized here in america.  Anywho it matters little to me, he was unfortunately an orthodox anyhow like most greeks.

The NIV/NASB/RSV/NASV/etc./Minority Text/Alexandrian Manuscript side will swear that their transcripts are the oldest, and adhere for the same reasons.

Seeing that Alexandria is in Egypt, and Egypt is a type of the world, where a large portion of gnotistism came from I find anything from there highly suspect.  How 'bout you?  Do your own research and come to your own conclusions.

I'm not going to battle this all out with anyone nor will I constantly defend my position.  I have done my own research and it was part of my solid stance.  I suggest every else do their own as well.

I'm off to dinner and Bible study.

Take care,
Jason

[Allinall]

Allinall- Yeah, and John the Baptist baptized people in the Jordan river, not a bath tub. The Jordan, as I’m sure you know, is a mess. It was a sacrifice to get dunked there. Where were you baptized? the bible also says to cut off body parts that causes us to sin. Are you without sin, or do you type with your tongue? When Jesus was doing the first lord’s supper, and he told us to “do it in remembrance of me,” he was eating a full meal with his buddies. They where not munching in a cracker and grape juice. But when was the last time YOU ate a full Passover meal for the Lord supper? A lot of things we do in the church today don’t follow thing TO THE LETTER. That is a problem with our Doctrine, not your translation. On top of that, it looks like you have taking the definitions from the strong’s-like books. These books are good for study, but they are pretty vague, and they only tell the Lateral Translation, not the Connotation of the word, not what it REALLY meant. Think of if you told a non-native speaker to “Get up” In his own language. He would think “How can I TAKE up? How can I get raise from the bed?” That is the same problem we have with the Greek Dictionaries some times.

Tibby,

We're not talking about a doctrine, we are talking about a clear word that a false doctrine is based upon.  As for my use of the Strong's...I was using the 2 years of Greek education I received in Bible College as my basis for my study.  As for the last time I ate a full meal for the Lord's Supper...the last Lord's Supper I had!     Our assistant pastor was showing how we often misunderstand the purpose of the rememberance.  It was a very good, and biblical understanding.  As for baptism...it isn't only acceptable in the Jordan river.  The word means to immerse.  It isn't the location, it is the method.  But I didn't post that to start doctrinal argumentation, rather, to point to the inconsistency of translations.

allinall, "It's your call, between your God and your conscience - His Holy Spirit"

what did you mean by this comment? It sounds like you are saying that our consciences and the Holy Spirit are the same. I do not, however want to put words in your mouth, so can you explain what you meant by this? our consciences are certainly not the same as the Holy Spirit. I mean, the Holy Spirit can and does use our conscience to convict us of sin, but the Holy Spirit is God, and I for one, would never make the claim that my conscience is God!

I meant that while every man has his own inate understanding of right and wrong, that it is the Holy Spirit that lays the conviction on us.  If I worded that oddly, I apologize.  As for it being your call...so as the Spirit and your conscience which should be guided by that same Spirit are in accord...then as a child of God you have the liberty to chose.  Does that help?  Sorry for the confusion.  

Mat 24:35  Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Mar 13:31  Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Luk 21:33  Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.  

If one has the best no need to mess with the rest.  The KJV was good enough for just shy of 300 years it's good enough for me.  Getting aquainted with English that's not so far off from current and much more perfect (thee thou etc) is a heck of a lot easier than learning 2000 ywaer old greek which is SO much different than english it's not even funny

I'm not wanting to argue with anyone here either, but I just want to point out that this is a faulty argumentation for your point of view.  How, has His word passed away?  It hasn't, whether it is in the TR transcripts or other.  I will say one thing here as an encouragement.  You have done your study, and made your decision.  I compliment that.  Most haven't.  I have as well, and have come to a different understanding.  Sooooooo...which of us is wrong?  YOU!    Actually, when we get to heaven we'll find out who's right and who's wrong.  Regardless, we'll be in Heaven!

In Christ...

[BDoggy]

Allinall-now I think I understand what you are saying. you mean that while our consciences are not perfect, the Holy Spirit is, so we must test the light of our conscience to see if it is of the Spirit. at least I think that is what you are saying, right?

well, now you can see why I said I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, cause I didn't know exactly what you were saying, but now I think I do. thanx for clearing it up.  

[Allinall]

Allinall-now I think I understand what you are saying. you mean that while our consciences are not perfect, the Holy Spirit is, so we must test the light of our conscience to see if it is of the Spirit. at least I think that is what you are saying, right?

well, now you can see why I said I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, cause I didn't know exactly what you were saying, but now I think I do. thanx for clearing it up.  

Bingo!  Hence, "try the spirits..."  If after trying that light with the Spirit, you find yourself in accord with the Spirit, then that is the course.  And anytime I say something that doesn't make sense (usually 90% of the time my mouth opens... ) call me on it!  And I'll be glad to explain and if wrong, repent.  

[Tibby]

God in Heaven, Jason , what are you taking over there in Philly? Zoloft? Prozac? Or are you just tired of everyone arguing, and no one listening? lol, When you realize no one wasn’t to listen to what you have to say, and that no one here is going to change what they believe no matter what, it does get dull. lol

Allinall- I’m impressed I bow to you, sir.

[Allinall]

Allinall- I’m impressed  I bow to you, sir

*Helps him back up*  No need.  The study on this topic was done 4 years ago and I currently use lexicons/concordances with the occassional original Greek when I'm feeling smart.  I usually stop feeling smart shortly thereafter...

[Ambassador4Christ]

I hate to break it to your pastor friend, but Matthew 5:44, Matthew 27:2, Matthew 27:35, Mark 3:15, Luke 7:28, Luke 9:55, Luke 9:56, Luke 22:14, Luke 23:38, Luke 24:42, John 3:13, John 7:50, Acts 9:6, Acts 24:8, First Timothy 3:16, First Peter 4:14, and Revelation 1:11 are ALL in the NIV. Look it up in your book, look it up in bible gateway, go to your local Christian books store and look for those verse in as many copies of the NIV as you can, it is in all.

Conclusion: Either this so-called Pastor doesn't have any idea what he is talking about, or he does but he thinks he is preaching to idiots! And when reading the misses verse, and comparing them to the verse in other bibles, you will find the "misses" verse are in fact there, in the context. See, the Verses and Chapter was made by man, not God, and where added Centuries after the fact. They are a guild to help in study, not a requirement, Christians read it for ages without Chapters and Verse, and did fine. If you base your belief that the NIV is corrupt because the guy told you, perhaps your should rethink this belief.

 

The Pastor did NOT say those verses have been taken out. You need to re-read what he said, and answer his questions.

[Petro]

The words of the LORD are pure words,
As silver tried in a furnace of earth,
purified seven times.
Thou shalt keep them, O LORD,
Thou shalt preserve them
from this generation forever.
Psalm 12:6,7
            
Heaven and earth shall pass away,                                            
But my words shall not pass away.
(Mat 24:35)

The NIV Translation of the scriptures relys heavily on the Wescot & Hort Greek Translations, 1881.

Then again, certain cults seem to love this Translation, including Jehovah Witness's New World Translation.

Brooke Foss Wescott, D.D. &  Fenton John Anthony Hort, D.D. , were anglican clerics, who leaned towards the teachings of the Roman Catholic church, you can read about there own personal thoughts and beliefs revealed in copys of letter written by the pair, here is a  couple of many web sites, available on this subject;  you decide..


 http://www.revelationwebsite.co.uk/index1/kjv/mouth.htm


Http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/truthquest/w_and_hQ.htm

What they said about............ The Scriptures:

"I reject the word infallibility of Holy Scriptures overwhelmingly." (Westcott, The Life and Letters of Brook Foss Westcott, Vol. I, p.207).

"Our Bible as well as our Faith is a mere compromise." (Westcott, On the Canon of the New Testament, p.vii).

"Evangelicals seem to me perverted. . .There are, I fear, still more serious differences between us on the subject of authority, especially the authority of the Bible." (Hort, The Life and Letters of Fenton John Anthony Hort, Vol. I, p.400)

Dr. Wilbur Pickering writes that,

"Hort did not hold to a high view of inspiration." (The Identity of the New Testament Text, p.212)

Perhaps this is why both the RV (which Westcott and Hort helped to translate) and the American edition of it, the ASV, translated;

 2 Timothy 3:16 as;
"Every scripture inspired of God" instead of "All scripture is given by inspiration of God," (KJV).

The fact that The WatchTower Society refers to the Wescott & Hort Greek Translation of 1881, to be the basis for their own NBew World translation, should raise a red flag in the minds and hearts of Christians who love Gods word;  the following quote is found in the opening page of ; Their 1969 edition, of The Kingdom Translation of the Greek Scriptures.

Presenting a literal word-for-word translation into English under the Greek text as set out in "The New Testament in the Original Greek--- The Text Revised by Brooke Foss Westcott D.D and Fenton John Anthony Hort D.D. ."(1948 Reprint).  

Here is a;  

TABLES OF COMPARISON  of NIV, KJV , NKJV, NASV, ERV
OF SELECTED SCRIPTURES
AFFECTING FUNDAMENTAL DOCTRINES
OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH

Http://watch.pair.com/scriptures.html

There are Christians and, then there are christians, that seem,  to prefer the NIV, over the KJV, even after they have been exposed to these truths. And so long as both read and study different versions KJV and NIV, there can not be agreement as to what the scriptures teach.

Can anyone who has an NIV, quote Jhn 5:4, for me..??

I have an NIV copy and use it, to reference words, in order to discuss verses with them that prefer the NIV, intelligently..

Blessings,
Petro

[Tibby]

Have you taken the test? The NIV says the same things any other bible (other then the OKJV, that is) says, but it paraphrases. It is more accurate then, say, the KJV. Why do you think they made the New King James Version? To correct the mistakes in the older one, the mistakes revealed in the text. It has been edited and changes so many time over the pass few years, and there are cases where the KJV says just the opposite of what every other Version says. It was the King James Version that incorrectly names the Reed Sea the Red see.  It was also this version that used “week” to describe a 7-year period.

Petro, The Jehovah’s Witness use the New World Version. They read the NIV like a Protestant would read the New American bible, during research. The JW believe the NIV has many errors.

I guess it all boils down to this: most translations still carry the most important messages from God, but to read just one is foolish. Sorry, it is late (or early, depending on how you look at it ), and what I’m starting isn’t the most coherent, but you get what I'm saying  

[Saved_4ever]

God in Heaven, Jason , what are you taking over there in Philly? Zoloft? Prozac? Or are you just tired of everyone arguing, and no one listening? lol,

Allinall- I’m impressed I bow to you, sir.

Why should I need the use of happy pills?  I have Jesus and the assurance of eternal life and forgiveness of sins.  Should one need more?

When you realize no one wasn’t to listen to what you have to say, and that no one here is going to change what they believe no matter what, it does get dull. lol

I think you mean "when you realize no one WANTS to listen..." correct?

Quite the contrary, there are many more lurkers than posters.  I have had PM's before and other such things that show some people are listening intently and have come to some better realizations about the liberal bibles against the KJV.  There are also plenty of other poster's who give good info.  Besides I think my sig and animation make it quite clear.  Don't you think so?

It is more accurate then, say, the KJV.

HEHE NOT!

Why do you think they made the New King James Version?

The same reason everyone else made revised editions.  They wanted more sales since this new NIV had come out.  Bible sales are quite profitable.  If the NIV is so perfect and better why do they have so many revisions in less than 4 decades getting worse each time.  The TNIV is probably the worst making everything gender neutral along with much other assorted garbage.

It has been edited and changes so many time over the pass few years, and there are cases where the KJV says just the opposite of what every other Version says. It was the King James Version that incorrectly names the Reed Sea the Red see.  It was also this version that used “week” to describe a 7-year period.

What are you talking about?  The only thing I can see is that the Red see thing (which is not in my bible) would have been the older way to spell it.  It's not a mistake it's a different spelling from times past.  I don't call that revising either.  LORD only knows how repugnate the english language will be in a another decade or so.  "Bootylicious" is now in the dictionary or soon will be as well as hottie.  

[Brother Love]

God in Heaven, Jason , what are you taking over there in Philly? Zoloft? Prozac? Or are you just tired of everyone arguing, and no one listening? lol,

Allinall- I’m impressed I bow to you, sir.

Why should I need the use of happy pills?  I have Jesus and the assurance of eternal life and forgiveness of sins.  Should one need more?

When you realize no one wasn’t to listen to what you have to say, and that no one here is going to change what they believe no matter what, it does get dull. lol

I think you mean "when you realize no one WANTS to listen..." correct?

Quite the contrary, there are many more lurkers than posters.  I have had PM's before and other such things that show some people are listening intently and have come to some better realizations about the liberal bibles against the KJV.  There are also plenty of other poster's who give good info.  Besides I think my sig and animation make it quite clear.  Don't you think so?

It is more accurate then, say, the KJV.

HEHE NOT!

Why do you think they made the New King James Version?

The same reason everyone else made revised editions.  They wanted more sales since this new NIV had come out.  Bible sales are quite profitable.  If the NIV is so perfect and better why do they have so many revisions in less than 4 decades getting worse each time.  The TNIV is probably the worst making everything gender neutral along with much other assorted garbage.

It has been edited and changes so many time over the pass few years, and there are cases where the KJV says just the opposite of what every other Version says. It was the King James Version that incorrectly names the Reed Sea the Red see.  It was also this version that used “week” to describe a 7-year period.

What are you talking about?  The only thing I can see is that the Red see thing (which is not in my bible) would have been the older way to spell it.  It's not a mistake it's a different spelling from times past.  I don't call that revising either.  LORD only knows how repugnate the english language will be in a another decade or so.  "Bootylicious" is now in the dictionary or soon will be as well as hottie.  

Right On! LOL, Thanks Brother

Brother Love

[ebia]

The NIV Translation of the scriptures relys heavily on the Wescot & Hort Greek Translations, 1881.

Then again, certain cults seem to love this Translation, including Jehovah Witness's New World Translation.

Guilt by association - a hallmark of the poor argument.

Brooke Foss Wescott, D.D. &  Fenton John Anthony Hort, D.D. , were anglican clerics, who leaned towards the teachings of the Roman Catholic church, you can read about there own personal thoughts and beliefs revealed in copys of letter written by the pair, here is a  couple of many web sites, available on this subject;  you decide..

And the TR, the text that the AV (KJV if your prefer) was put together by Erasmus - a (shock horror) Roman Catholic.

"I reject the word infallibility of Holy Scriptures overwhelmingly." (Westcott, The Life and Letters of Brook Foss Westcott, Vol. I, p.207).

"Our Bible as well as our Faith is a mere compromise." (Westcott, On the Canon of the New Testament, p.vii).

"Evangelicals seem to me perverted. . .There are, I fear, still more serious differences between us on the subject of authority, especially the authority of the Bible." (Hort, The Life and Letters of Fenton John Anthony Hort, Vol. I, p.400)

Quotes out of context prove nothing.

Dr. Wilbur Pickering writes that,

"Hort did not hold to a high view of inspiration." (The Identity of the New Testament Text, p.212)

So what - we are arguing about their academic abilities to sort through the mass of manuscripts.

Perhaps this is why both the RV (which Westcott and Hort helped to translate) and the American edition of it, the ASV, translated;

 2 Timothy 3:16 as;
"Every scripture inspired of God" instead of "All scripture is given by inspiration of God," (KJV).

I couldn't comment on the choice of translation there.

The fact that The WatchTower Society refers to the Wescott & Hort Greek Translation of 1881, to be the basis for their own NBew World translation, should raise a red flag in the minds and hearts of Christians who love Gods word;  the following quote is found in the opening page of ; Their 1969 edition, of The Kingdom Translation of the Greek Scriptures.

Guilt by association again.

Presenting a literal word-for-word translation into English under the Greek text as set out in "The New Testament in the Original Greek--- The Text Revised by Brooke Foss Westcott D.D and Fenton John Anthony Hort D.D. ."(1948 Reprint).  

Here is a;  

TABLES OF COMPARISON  of NIV, KJV , NKJV, NASV, ERV
OF SELECTED SCRIPTURES
AFFECTING FUNDAMENTAL DOCTRINES
OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH

Http://watch.pair.com/scriptures.html

There are Christians and, then there are christians, that seem,  to prefer the NIV, over the KJV, even after they have been exposed to these truths. And so long as both read and study different versions KJV and NIV, there can not be agreement as to what the scriptures teach.

If you're doctine is  so fragile that it relies on a disputed passage, you really are in trouble.

Can anyone who has an NIV, quote Jhn 5:4, for me..??

So what?
The translaters of the NIV decided, using all the available evidence (including but not limited to the work of Wescott & Hort) that the evidence pointed to that phrase having NOT been in the very original manuscript.   Any decent print will include it in the footnote.

[Allinall]

Dear me.  I'm about to agree[/b] with ebia!  

Guilt by association - a hallmark of the poor argument.

Truth.  And were the KJV translators of more impecable character and devotion that their work was so much more?  Did God chose them to propogate His word more than other translators?  In the end, we're all human, sinful, and unworthy of any use God may call us to.

And the TR, the text that the AV (KJV if your prefer) was put together by Erasmus - a (shock horror) Roman Catholic.

Yes.  But he was a good[/u] Roman Catholic.  

Here's a question for everyone:

If every copy of God's word, regardless of translation or transcript were destroyed and none could be found anywhere, would that constitute the "passing away" of God's word?

[Saved_4ever]

If every copy of God's word, regardless of translation or transcript were destroyed and none could be found anywhere, would that constitute the "passing away" of God's word?

As far as the human race is concerned... Yes.  If we have nothing then there can be no final authority for us.  Everyone will claim whatever they please and couldn't be proven wrong.  Unless of course you are of the silly camp of people that still "hear" God in their head.  You know just like the "renegade" Mormans who claim God tells them to kill people that are in the way of God's plans.

God stopped communicating directly with man at the close of scripture(ie no one hears anything from God. There is no one who can claim "thus saith the LORD" if it is not already in scripture.  Though many give it a shot like Benny Hinn ).  

Why, you might ask?  Quite simply everything God wants us to know is contained in His Holy Word.  If His written Word was of no use or importance than Jesus Himself would not have constantly reffered to the scriptures as proof of His statments.  He even used written scripture against satan!!  I dare say then that His Holy written Word is most precious and not to be tampered and handled so lightly.
   

And were the KJV translators of more impecable character and devotion that their work was so much more?

Yes, just look at the difference between the shear number of KJV translators (52 I believe) and their methods compared to any bible there after.