Calvinism--TULIP

[Allinall]

The issue is not the 5 points of Calvinism, its what did He (Calvin) teach.

Hey there Petro!

I contend that the issue isn't what Calvin taught, but what God teaches.    We engulf ourselves in the teachings of others and concern ourselves with our theological education.  We know much about the teachings of God, but do we know this at the expense of knowing the God of these teachings?  Mind you, I'm not advocating ignorance in the matter, but rather am advocating a proper perspective when faced with what any man says God meant.  Take their words, but be like the church at Berea...

The brothers immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived they went into the Jewish synagogue. Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so. Acts 17:10-11

If Calvin had truth in his statements it was not his truth but God's.  But we must not take that truth on the basis of Calvin's teachings.  We must accept, however, what God has said, whether it fits our education or no.  Please, understand that I do not post to argue.  I hope it doesn't come across in that fashion.

[Saved_4ever]

Unfortunately when person A dosen't agree with person B it always seems like someone is arguing because each feel they are right.

That's just us sin laden people.  I am learning how to not worry so much about the "disaggrements".  I post my "thoughts" on the subject matter and read others "thoughts".  then I see if that persons "thoughts" line up with the bible.  If I feel they don't I try to go from there but I refuse to go into heavy debate anymore because those who have made up their minds won't be persuded by me.  We aren't talking about chevy vs ford but God's Word.  Only the holy spirit himself can change us on those things.

Look at micheal he ranted and raved how he would NEVER change his mind.  It's after those comments especially I move on.

God bless,
Jason

[Ambassador4Christ]

Unfortunately when person A dosen't agree with person B it always seems like someone is arguing because each feel they are right.

That's just us sin laden people.  I am learning how to not worry so much about the "disaggrements".  I post my "thoughts" on the subject matter and read others "thoughts".  then I see if that persons "thoughts" line up with the bible.  If I feel they don't I try to go from there but I refuse to go into heavy debate anymore because those who have made up their minds won't be persuded by me.  We aren't talking about chevy vs ford but God's Word.  Only the holy spirit himself can change us on those things.

Look at micheal he ranted and raved how he would NEVER change his mind.  It's after those comments especially I move on.

God bless,
Jason

DITTO  

[joelkaki]

Well until I have some better experiences it remains unchanged.  I still don't agree with them anyway, and that's not going to change.  I'm not getting in to a huge debate because it proves fruitless time and again.  I already seriously disagree with your entire stance of the bible and other such matters.  We have gone at it before and I really don't feel like going at it again.  

That's fine.  You aren't obligated to debate or anything.  Plus my time is a little limited at this forum these days anyways.
Hopefully you'll have some better experiences.

Not that I am trying to toss your age in to "disqualify" you or anything but 15-16 years is not so long and someday you just might find yourself changing the tune of "all my life".  You haven't left home to be on your own and do other things yet so your "people" experience should grow greatly.  I'm not saying this to be mean but rather when you see more you may not say the same thing.

No offense taken!  Believe me, it can be hard for me to offer my opinion on these forums sometimes, especially when people know my age.    
  Let me say this, though.  There are certainly some Calvinists that would fit your description.  But such a description is not limited to Calvinists.  There are Arminians, dispies, Pentecostals, OVers, etc with bad attitudes, unedifying mouths and the like.  That I don't think you would disagree with.
  However, I still do not think that it is right to generally classify Calvinists in this way.  And that is not just based on my experience.  It is also based on my mom's, my dad's, my present pastor's, my former pastor's, a host of other people I know's, and not to mention, a few guys my parents knew (Calvinists) were the humblest, nicest men you could ever meet.  To name two--the late Greg Bahnsen, and Dr. Nigel Lee.  
  You are what, 26?  If I am not mistaken, that is what I remember.  My parents are closing in on 50, and their experience contradicts your's.  But enough of this pointless debate.

Joel

[asaph]

God is sovereign, no one can defeat God's will. Thus God's will is always enforced in the course of human events.
If God's sovereignty always requires His will to be enforced, then humans do not have free choice. Thus everything is forced to conform to God's sovereign will. Example: A person might say, "It was God's will for an accident to occur on the Interstate. If I stop to administer first aide and thus keep a victim from bleeding to death, I have interfered with God's will for that person to die."

This conclusion is both illogical and not Biblical.

Another person might say, "God has predestined me to hell. Therefore, it is no use for me to pray, attend church, read my Bible, et cetera, because no matter how much I love and obey God, I can never achieve/receive salvation."

This conclusion is also illogical and not Biblical. It requires God to create evil, sin, and sinners, and arbitrarily force them to do His will. This is contrary to the Bible. In addition, John 3:16 states: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." The text does not say that "whoever is predestined to believe in him shall not perish but have eternal life." The ability to freely choose to believe in Christ, or to choose not to believe in Christ, is absolutely required by John 3:16.
Predestined, Predestination - The word "predestination" does not occur in the Bible. The compound Greek word "prohorizo" (derived from "pro" meaning "before" and "horizo" meaning "a boundary, limit") means "to limit or set boundaries beforehand." It does not mean to force against one's will. This word occurs only four times in two passages. Thus the entire doctrine of "Predestination" is built on four texts.
Do the Texts Say God Predestines Some to be Saved and Others to be Lost?

"For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers." -- Romans 8:29 (NIV)

"And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified." -- Rom 8:30 (NIV)

Consider the key phrases in these texts:

"Those he (God) foreknew" -  God's foreknowledge does not cause us or force us to make choices against our free will. When the text speaks about those God foreknew, it is telling us God knew beforehand some people would exercise their free choice, accept Jesus Christ, and become Christians. God did not force them, He simply knew beforehand what they would freely chose to do.

"He also predestined" - God predestined, set certain boundaries and limits beforehand, for everyone who chooses to be saved through Jesus Christ. What were these boundaries, or limits that God predestined? Read the next phrase.

"To be conformed to the likeness of His son" - God did not predestine (limit beforehand) who would be saved. God did not arbitrarily choose some people beforehand to be saved against their own choice. But God did set certain boundaries or limits beforehand for everyone who has freely chosen to be saved: everyone must be "conformed to the likeness of" Jesus Christ. God has predetermined that Jesus would be our example. Everyone who chooses to follow Jesus is required to become "like" Him in all we do.

"Firstborn among many brothers" - The result of our being "conformed to the likeness of" Jesus Christ is that He becomes pre-eminent over all of us as His "brothers." Just as we sinners can only become like Him in the sense of our new character but not in our being, so the sinless Jesus can only be our "brother" in the sense of our humanity (through the Incarnation), but he cannot become our "brother" in sin.

"Those He predestined" - This refers back to the people mentioned previously: every person who has chosen to accept Jesus Christ, and who now has the requirement to "be conformed to the likeness of His son."

"He also called" - Every person who ever chose to accept Jesus Christ has been called ("invited") to "be conformed to the likeness of His son."

"He also justified" - Every person who ever chose to accept Jesus Christ has not only been invited to "be conformed to the likeness of His son," but God has also declared that person to be conformed to the likeness of His son. In other words, God has made each Christian into the "likeness of His son." If we have chosen Jesus as our Savior and Lord, then we have been "called" to be conformed into the likeness of Jesus Christ. More than that, God legally declares us to have been conformed into that likeness. Thus, once a person accepts Christ, the result (conforming to the likeness of Christ) is certain (predetermined).

"He also glorified" - The final result of our free choice to accept Jesus as our Savior and Lord is that we are "called," "justified," and finally "glorified" (meaning: "rendered glorious, worthy of glory/praise").

Summary of Romans 8:29-30

Rather than telling us that God forces people to be saved or lost, these texts give us the glorious promise that God will carry our free choice right on through to completion: "Being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus." -- Philippians 1:6 (NIV)

asaph

[Petro]

asaph,

I am glad you posted this, as it gives readers an opportunity to little by little, unravel for you, your misunderstanding of Gods word.

posted by asaph reply #34
God is sovereign, no one can defeat God's will.  Thus God's will is always enforced in the course of human events.

While the statements you have made above are,  true, your following statement, is Not ; it is only half true.

[quoted by asaph]
If God's sovereignty always requires His will to be enforced, then humans do not have free choice.
[ end of quote]


I am glad also, you recognize that there may be a difference between "free will" and "free choice", the natural man since he is dead in sin and tresspass, has no "free will", he is under the will of the god of this earth (2Cor 4:3) and sins because he can't help it.


It is a distortion to say, that God forces his will upon people, nothing could be further from the truth.

The best known verse, itself disproves your viewpoint, here it is;

2 Pet 3
9  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Please Note; the last portion of this verse, this is the reason men perish....becuase they refuse to repent.;God commands all men everywhere to repent (acts 17:30)

In this verse it is evident, God is "not willing that any should perish", and yet when one reads the scriptures, many perish, read towards  the end of Revelation 16;

10  And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11  And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

Look at; Revelation 20

11  And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12  And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13  And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Using your logic, which you would have us to believe is logical, you go on to state;

Thus everything is forced to conform to God's sovereign will.

My friend, your statements lack wisdom and are " ILLOGICAL" and "UNBIBLICAL", simply because you have a distorted  understanding of the Word of God.

God knows that the [/b]natural man (1Cor2:14) is outside of his will, and HEdoes nothing absolutely, nothing to thwart the will of this man, other than to send someone preach the gospel of salvation which commands him to repent.

The "natural man"does not possess a  "free will", at best this man is able to chose good, which is right, but even that is unable to save him, what is able to  lead him to salvation , is his desire to know more of the conviction of sin which is the work of the Holy Spirit is doing in sinners hearts, and conviction of the coming judgment and righteousness.

This is what Peter speaks of, when he says, that we who have come to the faith;

"....have purified your souls in obeying the truth.... (1Pet 1:18-22);

What is the Truth??

Rom 3
23  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24  Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25  Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

1Cor 15
3  For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4  And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to
the scriptures:

1Pet1
18  ......that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things...
19  But with the precious blood of Christ,
21  Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Please note, these verses have nothing to do with their free will, free choicedeeds or works, and everything to do with FAITH, which is a gift of the GRACE of God, since it is the Word that tells us;   That FAITH; "............ is a gift of God, lest any man should boast." (Eph 2:9-8)

They perish for this reason;

2Th2
8  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9  Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.  

Lets, say it, exactly the way it truly is, sinners will perish because they have no interest in the truth, nor the commandment to repent, this is not Gods will, but their own, free choice to not believenor obey thye commandment, they have no interest in believing the truth, those who chose to repentare the ones who do the will of God, and, in the end everyone gets what they want.

All those who desire to have their sins forgiven are forgiven, and those who do not, are not forgiven.

So where is the problem, with Gods plan, in the end as we understand it, those who are forgiven are MANIFESTED as sons of God and of Abrahams seed, the true Israel of God, precious and elect to God, having been predestinated to adoption of sons.

Continued--------------

[Petro]

The word "Predestinated" is only used twice in the NT, both in the past tense, speaking of those who are presently  "in Christ Jesus"(Eph 1:5,11); while the word "Predestinate" is used twice in the Book of Romans, in the future tense, concerning those whom God "did foreknow" (Rom 8:29,30)

I always here this very same argument, concerning this word, man reasoning in his mind and reaching a conclusion, that if God, predestinated to save those whom he did foreknow, then He predestinated those He did not foreknow to destruction.

While this is true, it is made known to us, after the fact; for no one would know he was chosen in Christ from before the foundation of the world, had he not chosen Christ, and Gods choice, then is become mans choice, thereby fulfilling the will of God. (Eph 1:5,11) ".....according to the good pleasure of His will. and, ....after the counsel of His own will."

And I might add, it had nothing to do with foreknowledge either, since Grace itself, refutes this idea and or teaching of it..

My answer to all those who would rail at God, to call him unrighteous because He choses whom He will, is this; PREDESTINATION, has nothing to do with man, and everything to do with God, just because, you don't understand the end from the beginning, and you are not God, and it pleases God not to give you wisdom and insight and peace about this matter, why do you argue against His word, seeing that Predestination has to with His promises to the seed of the Promise;

Rom 9
6  Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7  Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8  That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9  For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
10  And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11  (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12  It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13  As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14  What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15  For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.
17  For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18  Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19  Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20  Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21  Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22  What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23  And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. And He chooses what He will reveal, and the rest is sealed up, some Christians rest on his word by faith, while others keep kicking at the pricks, and can't accept His word as it is written, so they wrest (twist) it to their destruction. (2Pet3:16)

I say if you don't understand his word or can't accept it, Pray for wisdom and understanding that you might understand and believe.

We who are saved have been called to preach the Gospel to those that perish,

"............ if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will." (2Tim2:25-26)

If the devil can take them captive at "his will", what free will, are you and all others refering to??

People that perish and remain in the sin of unbelief, possess "free choice", NOT "free will".

And IF they chose to believe in the way and the truth, and the result is, they are giveneternal life.

Blessings

Petro

[Petro]

The issue is not the 5 points of Calvinism, its what did He (Calvin) teach.

Hey there Petro!

I contend that the issue isn't what Calvin taught, but what God teaches.    We engulf ourselves in the teachings of others and concern ourselves with our theological education.  We know much about the teachings of God, but do we know this at the expense of knowing the God of these teachings?  Mind you, I'm not advocating ignorance in the matter, but rather am advocating a proper perspective when faced with what any man says God meant.  Take their words, but be like the church at Berea...

The brothers immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived they went into the Jewish synagogue. Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so. Acts 17:10-11

If Calvin had truth in his statements it was not his truth but God's.  But we must not take that truth on the basis of Calvin's teachings.  We must accept, however, what God has said, whether it fits our education or no.  Please, understand that I do not post to argue.  I hope it doesn't come across in that fashion.

True,  agree, what I posted was in response to remarks made against Calvin, attributing the 5 points, to him.

Petro

[asaph]

Petro,
I think you misunderstand my post. I happen to agree with your rebuttle for the most part. (I take it, you are not a 5 point Calvinist.)  Let me quote you:

"I am glad you posted this, as it gives readers an opportunity to little by little, unravel for you, your misunderstanding of Gods word.
Quote:
posted by asaph reply #34
God is sovereign, no one can defeat God's will.  Thus God's will is always enforced in the course of human events.
While the statements you have made above are,  true, your following statement, is Not ; it is only half true.
[quoted by asaph]
If God's sovereignty always requires His will to be enforced, then humans do not have free choice.
[ end of quote]
I am glad also, you recognize that there may be a difference between "free will" and "free choice", the natural man since he is dead in sin and tresspass, has no "free will", he is under the will of the god of this earth (2Cor 4:3) and sins because he can't help it.
It is a distortion to say, that God forces his will upon people, nothing could be further from the truth."


Petro, when I say God forces his will upon people I mean this: God has a universal will that none perish, but that all come to repentance. That is His general will. However he moves toward that general will with mans freedom of choice in mind. Now let me explain how He forces His will on all.

It is Gods will that people find Life only in Jesus. There is no other way to have it. He forces this will upon mankind. But that is only one side of the coin. On the other side you find that it is Gods will that only death and eternal loss is found outside of Jesus. This also he forces upon mankind. God does not force His general will on anyone. He is willing that none perish but knows that not all will exercise this freedom to choose. But He does not give them an alternative to Life. In this way He forces His specific will on people but not His general will.
One can't say, "I'm going to do it MY way; I don't like Gods way!" and expect to live forever. God's will for that person, who shuns God's love is that he perish. God is not going to back up and say: "Oh, it's OK, you don't have to recieve the free gift, I'll let you live anyway." No, God enforces His will of salvation only through His Son Jesus.
The people outside of Christ are experiencing death, this is Gods will. The people in Christ are experiencing Life, this also is Gods will. Overall, God's will is that all be in Christ, but He does not force them to come to Jesus. God teaches them and He draws them, but they must make the choice.

John 6
39   And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40   And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45   It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

2 Cor 5
17   Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18   And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19   To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20   Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

asaph

[asaph]

I believe in corporate election, not particular election. The theme of the Romans 9 is corporate election.
Romans 9:
6  Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Notice that Israel is a corporate term.

7  Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Notice God is beginning to define more narrowly His plan for a corporate election. First Israel , now a seed within Israel.

8  That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

We know that the seed refers to Christ, as Paul says to the Galatians: Gal. 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
While we know that Christ is a particular individual, we also know that He is a corporate body. Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
This speaks of us in union with Christ as the seed. (Corporate union)

9  For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
10  And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11  (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12  It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13  As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Here we have two particular individuals, Jacob and Esau. They are mentioned here, not to establish a particular election doctrine, but a corporate election doctrine. (Jacob later became Israel corporately and Esau became Edom corporately.) The purpose of God was to establish a lineage to bring Christ into the world to be His elect body; as Isaiah says: Isa.42:1   Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. And Peter says in 1 Peter 2:6  Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

14   What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Now that God has established a line within Israel to bring about the Elect Son is there unrighteousness in Him for doing so? Why can't I just be a descendant of Abraham and be accepted of God? That is the question the Jews were asking. Some did not like Pauls answer that you have to believe in the One Elect to participate in the blessing of Abraham. You have to be the Corporate Elect Body. Entry into this blessing is by spititual new birth.

15   For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16   So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

God will have mercy on those who choose Christ as their Savior therebye being baptized into the Elect Corporate Body.
Of course they will be taught and drawn by the Father in order that they might choose. But they are not under compulsion to choose, as Jesus says in John 6:45   It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

17   For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18   Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

God did not harden Pharoahs heart to establish partular election of some to Life and others to damnation. You can only read that into the passage. Again Gods purpose was to deliver Israel in order to keep the lineage going to bring the promised seed into the world. He showed His power to do so by hardening Pharaohs heart, and in so doing God introduced His way of deliverance through blood atonement. This blood atonement, typified by the lamb, was fulfilled in the Elect Christ. To establish a docctrine of particular election by this passage steals from the very purpose of Paul in writing in the first place, as Paul says in Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
God's desire is for all to come to Christ that He might have mercy on all.
We are such an individulistic society that we have a hard time with corporate election. All we can see is the individual. This is why the Body of Christ in the west is so fragmented. If any man be in Christ he is a new creation [corporately]. This is a hard saying who can bear it?

asaph

[Petro]

Reply #39 posted by asaph

I believe in corporate election, not particular election.

This speaks of us in union with Christ as the seed. (Corporate union)

9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Here we have two particular individuals, Jacob and Esau. They are mentioned here, not to establish a particular election doctrine, but a corporate election doctrine. (Jacob later became Israel corporately and Esau became Edom corporately.) The purpose of God was to establish a lineage to bring Christ into the world to be His elect body; as Isaiah says: Isa.42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. And Peter says in 1 Peter 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

asaph,

Sometimes we think we are so smart, we inadvertently inject little bits and pieces of our own doctrines into, what the word teaches, and this why we cannot agree on anything, it seems to me.

First of all "election" is Gods business, it makes no difference who trys to summarize how God defines "election", or how He executes it, all explanations will fall short of  the act and or definition itself.

I believe that in trying to corner the type of election, people,  muddy the water up trying to insert their brand of teaching on the subject and the result is,  it becomes difficult to see, anything clearly concerning the  teaching of it.

In Election, we clearly see both particular and corporate.

The scriptures, teach both, we read in (1 Pet 1:2), of particular election; in the verse above Jacob was chosen over Esau, this is particular; Jesus himself elected or chose the twelve, over many others who had an interest in Him, this is particular.

All whom the father give me, is not this particular??

In Jhn 10:3, we are told Jesus calls his own sheep by name, when Lazarus died, He specifically called to Lazarus, a picture of spiritual salvation of those dead in sin and tresspass.

I am afraid you can't have one without the other, and yet, you say, I don't believe in the one??

I don't know what, you actually believe or think.

All I know is, we know we are sinners, and will be till the last breath leaves our bodies, and yet knowing this, we prefer to preach on the sovereignty of man, as opposed in the Sovereignty of a Just and Faithfull God.

This is the reason why, we really have these conversations, to give men credit for coming to Christ.

Thank you, but No Thank You..

I don't ever want to say to anyone, nor give anyone the impression, I believed in my own strength, I know God saved me from the pit, but He brought me kicking and screaming and arguing with his Word,  to the truth that I was a sinner, needing to repent. He didn't force to repent, and all because

He elected me, and I think He made a good choice, and thank Him for it.

As I see, it had it not been for Him drawing me to Himself, beforehand, I would never have been able to come to repentance, much less believe by faith to the saving of my soul.  

Others see their salvation differently, and do so to give themselves credit, because they really don't want God to get all of the credit.

Blessings to you,

Petro

[Petro]

Asaph.  with reagrds to your reply #38

I have a problem with your choice of words, the word 'commands" as opposed to the word "forces" give two very distinct, meanings to what the Sovereign God has done;

Although, when used as a transative verb, "commands" does have a very close definition as "force"; "to have power to control by position"]/b] as opposed to; "power to control" not necessarily because of position, but by brute force.

"...He commands all men everywhere to repent" Acts 17:30; and he doesn't force them, those that do repent, He enables or empowers to come to Christ, that they might be saved.

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." (Jhn 6:37)   Not one will be missing...at the end..

In this day and age, one must be very precise in the use of  words;since words Christians use,  do not mean the same thing to all people, or faiths, if, your familiar with the "Evangelicals and Catholics Together" contract which was signed by visible fundamental Christians, considered to be good teachers , pastors and evangalists, such as Billy Graham, John Mc Arthur, Charles Colson, they  assumed when signing that, Rome defined words such as; Righteousness, Salvation, Justification, in the same way the apostles did which agree with the totality of scripture.

Which to their dismay, since, have realized,  Romes does not define them to mean the same, as understaood by Christians.

Why use the word force, when it would be more precise to say, "commands"

For this reason, I disagree with you, and would reject any notion, that a Sovereign God, forces anyone to do anything against his (mans) will. Men will continue to perish, because they willing refuse to obey the word of God.

But thank you for explaining, anyhow.

Blessings,

Petro

[asaph]

Petro,
It is good to hear your responses because, it's like iron sharpening iron. Back to particular election. I know that God deals with us as particular individuals, for we are one body yet many members. In Christ each one of us is elect. But outside of Him no one is elect. If one says he is elected before being in Christ then being in Christ is a moot point and being in Him plays second fiddle to election. But is this arguement really important? Probably not. I am in Him and you are in Him and that's what matters. Reality is what has meaning, not doctrine. I own a car. I know a few things about my car. But that car is useless to me unless I drive it. If everytime I got in the car with my wife, I start telling her the wonders of hoe this machine works, our relationship would get pretty scary. But if I enjoy her fellowship and she mine while in the car together, being in the car takes on meaning.

asaph

[Petro]

Petro,
It is good to hear your responses because, it's like iron sharpening iron. Back to particular election. I know that God deals with us as particular individuals, for we are one body yet many members. In Christ each one of us is elect. But outside of Him no one is elect. If one says he is elected before being in Christ then being in Christ is a moot point and being in Him plays second fiddle to election. But is this arguement really important? Probably not. I am in Him and you are in Him and that's what matters. Reality is what has meaning, not doctrine. I own a car. I know a few things about my car. But that car is useless to me unless I drive it. If everytime I got in the car with my wife, I start telling her the wonders of hoe this machine works, our relationship would get pretty scary. But if I enjoy her fellowship and she mine while in the car together, being in the car takes on meaning.

asaph

asaph,

Exactly, I agree with what you've posted.

Look, I never talk about election, predestination, or foreknowledg with an unsaved person, when sharing the Gospel; these doctrines should only be discussed between, mature, solid food, meat eating Christians, some who still suckle, think they know all about them, and try to put their two cents worth into these threads , I have been studying these for 20 years or so, and sometimes I wonder, if I understand the doctrines at all, In answering myself, I would have to be honest, and say I don't completely.

But there are things that I understand perfectly, which have helped me to keep on track, and mindful of, and that is God does all things perfectly, and that He is a righteous judge, these two principles, are most important, which if one keeps at the forefront when trying to work thru these, doctrines, will lead to and pin down the truth

In the first place I will never give opportunity for the flesh, to enter into the picture and gain a toe hold, in these docrines; the way some Christians explain these, you would think man is equal in sovereignty to God, and that God cannot work without their cooperation, and I suspect this is where you see the "force" of God being applied.  I reject this outta hand, and I'll explain why.

The Sovereign God the creator of all the earth, is a just God.

"Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?? (Gen 18:25) Abraham said.

And as judge, He is only obliged to execute JUST judgement in righteousness.
And, not obliged to force himself on sinners, as many believe.

But, just because God has chosen for himself a people to save, those who do not understand the righteousness of God, take issue, that He is unjust because He saves whom He wills, and does not lift a hand to do anything for others who perish, because of their sin. They say, naaaww, that is not the way God works, and then go about explaining there version of how God works out His plan, imagine that...

Understanding this, I think is key to understanding all other issues, in fact when one sees it in the light of what the scriptures teach, all other doctrines taught in this light, fall into place, with regard to Foreknowledge, Predestination and Election of God.

Blessings

Petro

[Petro]

Ollie,

Thanks for your post, they support exactly what I have been saying.

I have stated;  That God as Creator of all things;

And as judge, He is only obliged to execute JUST judgement in righteousness.
And, not obliged to force himself on sinners, as many believe.

But, just because God has chosen for himself a people to save, those who do not understand the righteousness of God, take issue, that He is unjust because He saves whom He wills, and does not lift a hand to do anything for others who perish, because of their sin.


The natural man, who is unable to receive, know or understand the things of God, can only excercise his will in the context of doing good or bad, he can chose, to obey the law of man, or not; on the other hand, since we live in the age of grace, and even before this age, the obedience to the law of God, only brought a person to Christ, it was never given that by keeping it, anyone could be saved.

A since all men are under the condemnation of sin, every man is in bondage to sin, and is unable to do anything but serve sin, it is only by Gods grace in drwaing those whom he has chosen to come to the knowledge of the truth, from this vast see of human flesh which perishes, that some are saved, we don't know who they are, this is why, the task of the church is not to buiuld buildings, but to preach the unsearchable riches of Christ, that all may here, and those who have been ordained to eternal life, will respond to the Gospel, because he has ordained such to be.

The evil one knows that there is a Godly seed, but he is in the dark as to who they are, just like us, this is why, his goal to deceive,  devour, kill, and murder, pillage rape, and what ever, in hopes of frusterating Gods Plan, if he can cause the death of just one of the elect,  whom God has chosen from before the foundations of the world, then he can thwart the Plan of God.

Kind of like uprooting a wheat plant, prematurely, because it looks like a tare, the seed of the evil one.

Many Christians before they were saved lived, lives of the basest debauchery, and if this person, who will be saved in the future is  an elect of God, chosen from before the foundations of the world, then it makes sense the Gods Holy Spirit will sanctify (set apart) this individual to bring him, to salvation, otherwise, if the evil one has his way, and takes that life, then he will have succeeded in thawrting Gods plan.

As for Justin Martyr, taking a paragraph and determining the mind of this man, when writing what he did,is hard to ascertain the total substance of exactly what the point is he is trying to make.

On the surface, I would have to disagree, with this statement he makes, based on the scriptures and my understanding of them,

110-165AD Justin Martyr   ;

"For neither would a man be worthy of reward or praise if he did not of himself choose the good, but was merely created for that end. Likewise, if a man were evil, he would not deserve punishment, since he was not evil of himself, being unable to do anything else than what he was made for."


Gods grace is not a reward for the good men do (Eph 2:8-9), this is clear; and they are ulitmately judged by their works (Rev 20:12-13)

Faith to believe God, is a free gift to those that perish whom God has chosen.. it simply offered by the His Grace, freely.

It is his work not mans..


Blessings,

Petro