Why Elijah must come...again

[nChrist]

Silver Surfer,

You missed this request:

What are the commandments of Jesus Christ? List them please so we can all understand some of your other posts here.

Tom

[Shammu]

I believe Enoch will be the other, Sooner rather than later I hope

No Gray Areas

Suz

No one now knows who the Two Witnesses are. But when they do appear, we will know that the return of Christ is not far away.

The Two Witnesses are two human beings who will be given extraordinary power for 3 1/2 years just before Christ's return Revelation 11:3. If anyone attempts to harm them before they complete their ministry, "fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies" verse 5. Note the similarity between this and the power given to Elijah II Kings 1:9-15. They will also have power to produce drought and famine, as did Elijah Luke 4:25; I Kings 17:1-7, and to smite the earth with plagues, as Moses did in Egypt Revelation 11:6. However, there is no biblical justification to believe that the Two Witnesses are indeed Moses, Elijah or Enoch; God has never resurrected a prophet or apostle to do a work centuries or millennia later. God always uses people of the time to carry out His work. This could be two of the 144,000.

The most notable work of the Two Witnesses will be to give one final warning to this world. This message of rebuke and repentance will bring them into conflict with the people and the governments in power, and they will be martyred. The whole world will rejoice and give each other gifts as they view their dead bodies, lying unburied in the streets of Jerusalem verses 9-10. However, those same people will be struck with great fear when they see the Two Witnesses come to life again and ascend into the sky in a cloud verses 11-12.

Verse 4 calls them "the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth," an obvious reference to Zechariah 4:14. Combining this Old Testament prophecy with the interpretation of the lampstands in Revelation 1:20, it appears that the Two Witnesses will also have a profound ministry to the church of God: They will supply the church with "oil," that is, they will spiritually feed the church during the "famine of the Word" Amos 8:11. Thus, the Two Witnesses will be affiliated with and teaching the members of God's church before and possibly during their greater worldwide ministry.

[Reba]

Rev 11:3-5

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
KJV


I injoy reading the different ideas we form in our heads from scripture.... Reading what man sees,  how man see what God wrote. We say the witnesses are men will these men have literal fire proceedeth out of their mouth, ?  If one of them is Elijah, Moses, Enoch.... would he return as a flesh and blood person (like we are)? or in a glorified form, has he been in the presences of the Lord?
 

[Jemidon2004]

You hit the nail right on the head dream...I agree where you said that the Two witnesses are two human beings who will be given extraordinary power for 3 1/2 years...According to Scripture they're given 3 1/2 years to teach and witness to the nation of Israel. I liked how you put it into perspective, but i just wanted to add this and be on my way...We see in Scripture the feats God acomplished by using Moses and Elijah. Now if you remember Elijah didn't die...if my memory serves me...lol. He was taken up...so thus why would he be resurrected if he didn't die? Of course now on the other hand we got Moses who did die without seeing the Promised Land...much less even entering into Jerusalem to see the Glory of God in the Temple. So with that said one can either go for or against Elijah & Moses as the Two Witnesses. But i'll ask you guys this...what do we know about ole Enoch. All we know is this:

Genesis 5:18
And Jared lived an hundred sixty and two years, and he begat Enoch:
   19: And Jared lived after he begat Enoch eight hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
   20: And all the days of Jared were nine hundred sixty and two years: and he died.
   21: And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah:
   22: And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
   23: And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:
   24: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

and also: Hebrews 11:5:

By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

And also: Jude 1:14

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

That's all Scripture says about ole Enoch. We aren't shown any miracles, any witnesses, and only 2 or 3 statements that he made while he was still on earth...so how is that one can pull that Enoch is eligable to be one of the Two Witnesses. On the other hand we know a WHOLE lot about Elijah and Moses. As dreamweaver noted the similarity between the powers of the two witnesses and that of Moses and Elijah. We see in Verse 5 of Revelation chapter 11 this:

And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

That's a striking similarity to Elijah's ability to call fire down from heaven, as 1 Kings 18 22-40 records that he called fire down from heaven upon his sacrifice to the Almighty God to show the prophets of baal that God is indeed the Almighty, and the power of the two witnesses to send fire to consume their enemies. Also in a clearer display of this power Elijah calls down fire from heaven to consume the men themselves in 2 Kings 1:9-11....very, very close to the description we're given in Revelation.

Also...if i may direct your attention to another one of Elijah's gifts given to him by the Almighty God. The power to shut up the rain...or as dreamweaver said "to produce drought and famine" This goes right along with 1 Kings 17:1-7 and James 4:17. This power to shut up the rain is given to Elijah, we don't see it given to Enoch. Oh yea...i just read where you said dreamweaver "God always uses people of the time to carry out His work" That's a good point, but i'd like to remind you that in the Millenial Kingdom there will be people from all time doing His work in the Kingdom..but that's getting off the subject.

NOw those last two gifts we're shown have been attributed to Elijah...for he was the only prophet to do those miraculous feats...to my knowledge...and I"ll admit...i'm still learning so i don't claim to know everything, but i'm going on what Scripture says and what God's shown me. Anywho...let's take a look at the similarities between the power to smite the earth with plagues and the power to turn the water into blood.

Note...Moses was given the power to turn the water into blood. He did so in Exodus 7:15-21 and also Psalms records that he did this feat also. (Psalms 105:29) This parallels the miracle of turning water into blood as Revelation 11:6 states it. That's one of the gifts we see Moses and the two witnesses having.

Note also...if you would...the power to smite the earth with plagues. This goes along with Exodus chapters 8, 9, 10, 11, and 12 where God shows His judgement upon the pharaoh. In each case God shows His supreme sovereignty by sending plagues upon the people. He will continue to show His sovereignty when the Two Witnesses come to preach during the 3 1/2 years they are given to witness.

well that about sums it up fer me...my teenage appetite is flaring up again so i gotta go assume the role of the garbage disposal...being 17 doesn't help matters much when you're trying to write out something and yer stomach is growling...hee hee. Anyway...I hope i havn't been too exhaustive, and i hope i made some sense...cause some of that stuff can get a wee bit confusing if ya just glance at it at first...but Scripture backs up Scripture or as Scripture says "Iron sharpens Iron" so i hope someone got something out of this post and I pray that this finds you all in high spirits and in His grace and mercy as we all look UPWARD!!!!

God Bless ya...

In His Service,
Joshua
09/7/04

[Reba]

well that about sums it up fer me...my teenage appetite is flaring up again so i gotta go assume the role of the garbage disposal...being 17 doesn't help matters much when you're trying to write out something and yer stomach is growling...hee hee. Anyway...I hope i havn't been too exhaustive, and i hope i made some sense...cause some of that stuff can get a wee bit confusing if ya just glance at it at first...but Scripture backs up Scripture or as Scripture says "Iron sharpens Iron" so i hope someone got something out of this post and I pray that this finds you all in high spirits and in His grace and mercy as we all look UPWARD!!!!

God Bless ya...

In His Service,
Joshua
09/7/04

Josh,  One of my grandsons is named Joshua   I doubt if you and i will agree on what we see in scripture.. My point here is to say to you a, young soldier in His army, keep writing and studing it does my heart good to read of 'youngins' in the Word.

[Silver Surfer]

Silver Surfer,

You missed this request:

What are the commandments of Jesus Christ? List them please so we can all understand some of your other posts here.

Tom

 5:7   Thou shalt have none other gods before me.  
  5:8   Thou shalt not make thee [any] graven image, [or] any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the waters beneath the earth:  
  5:9   Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me,  
  5:10   And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.  
  5:11   Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain: for the LORD will not hold [him] guiltless that taketh his name in vain.  
  5:12   Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.  
  5:13   Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work:  
  5:14   But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.  
  5:15   And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and [that] the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.  
  5:16   Honour thy father and thy mother, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.  
  5:17   Thou shalt not kill.  
  5:18   Neither shalt thou commit adultery.  
  5:19   Neither shalt thou steal.  
  5:20   Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.  
  5:21   Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbour's wife, neither shalt thou covet thy neighbour's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or any [thing] that [is] thy neighbour's.  
  5:22   These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and .....he added no more.
   And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.  (Duet.)

[Reba]

 5:13  Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work:     5:14  But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.  

Do you get all your work done in 6 days as commanded?
Do you cause "the stranger" to do any labour?  

[Silver Surfer]

 5:13  Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work:     5:14  But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.  

Do you get all your work done in 6 days as commanded?
Do you cause "the stranger" to do any labour?  

Do you realize that I belong to the church that  God identifies, as His ?
"Here is the patience of the saints...here are they that keep the commandments of God, and have the faith of Jesus", (Revelation 14:12).


Do you realize that it is Satan, who opposes those people who obey God ?
"And the dragon (Satan) was angry with the woman (Church) and went to make  WAR...with the remnant of her seed, which keeps the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ", (Revelation 12:17).

No church, that holds Sunday worship services, fits this description...because they are breaking the 4th commandment of God.

[nChrist]

Silver Surfer,

You didn't even get close on the Commandments of Jesus Christ. I've already posted them in another thread, one that I think was for you.
____________________

(Matthew 22:35)  Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
(Matthew 22:36)  Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
(Matthew 22:37)  Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
(Matthew 22:38)  This is the first and great commandment.
(Matthew 22:39)  And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
(Matthew 22:40)  On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
_____________________

If you wish to live under the Law, you MUST live under all of it. However, we are not under the Law, rather the Grace and Love of Almighty God and the PERFECT SACRIFICE of Jesus Christ on the CROSS. There are still many unbelieving Jews trying to live under the Law. They rejected Jesus Christ as VERY GOD, Lord and Saviour, THE CROSS. We don't live under the Law, rather under GRACE.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[Reba]

 5:13  Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work:     5:14  But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.  

Do you get all your work done in 6 days as commanded?
Do you cause "the stranger" to do any labour?  

Do you realize that I belong to the church that  God identifies, as His ?
"Here is the patience of the saints...here are they that keep the commandments of God, and have the faith of Jesus", (Revelation 14:12).


Do you realize that it is Satan, who opposes those people who obey God ?
"And the dragon (Satan) was angry with the woman (Church) and went to make  WAR...with the remnant of her seed, which keeps the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ", (Revelation 12:17).

No church, that holds Sunday worship services, fits this description...because they are breaking the 4th commandment of God.

Again you have not answered......

[musicllover]

 5:13  Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work:     5:14  But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.  

Do you get all your work done in 6 days as commanded?
Do you cause "the stranger" to do any labour?  

Do you realize that I belong to the church that  God identifies, as His ?
"Here is the patience of the saints...here are they that keep the commandments of God, and have the faith of Jesus", (Revelation 14:12).


Do you realize that it is Satan, who opposes those people who obey God ?
"And the dragon (Satan) was angry with the woman (Church) and went to make  WAR...with the remnant of her seed, which keeps the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ", (Revelation 12:17).

No church, that holds Sunday worship services, fits this description...because they are breaking the 4th commandment of God.

Silver, Famous word of Charly Brown, OH GOOD GRIEF,
       Do you realize how this sounds? ...."Do you realize that I belong to the church that  God identifies, as His ?"......WELL (said in disgust).. ....would you mind sharing the name of this church? Maybe  EGO's R US  
    I kinda don't think your the only one goin to Heaven Hon. All have fallen short......any who call on his name, confess, .......there are alot of scriptures that say so.
Musicllover    

[Shammu]

Oh yea...i just read where you said dreamweaver "God always uses people of the time to carry out His work" That's a good point, but i'd like to remind you that in the Millenial Kingdom there will be people from all time doing His work in the Kingdom.

I know I put that in because that, is a possibilty. I know that in the Millenial Kingdom, there will be people from all time doing Gods work. From all the Prophets of the Bible to todays/tomorrows people.

[Silver Surfer]

Silver Surfer,

You didn't even get close on the Commandments of Jesus Christ. I've already posted them in another thread, one that I think was for you.
____________________

(Matthew 22:35)  Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
(Matthew 22:36)  Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
(Matthew 22:37)  Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
(Matthew 22:38)  This is the first and great commandment.
(Matthew 22:39)  And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
(Matthew 22:40)  On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
_____________________

If you wish to live under the Law, you MUST live under all of it. However, we are not under the Law, rather the Grace and Love of Almighty God and the PERFECT SACRIFICE of Jesus Christ on the CROSS. There are still many unbelieving Jews trying to live under the Law. They rejected Jesus Christ as VERY GOD, Lord and Saviour, THE CROSS. We don't live under the Law, rather under GRACE.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Only the person who commits sin, is under the Law, (Romans 3:19).

God's Law, the 10 commandments, is called the Law of Liberty, (James 2:10-12)

[Reba]

Silver Surfer,

You missed this request:

What are the commandments of Jesus Christ? List them please so we can all understand some of your other posts here.

Tom

 5:7   Thou shalt have none other gods before me.  
  5:8   Thou shalt not make thee [any] graven image, [or] any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the waters beneath the earth:  
  5:9   Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me,  
  5:10   And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.  
  5:11   Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain: for the LORD will not hold [him] guiltless that taketh his name in vain.  
  5:12   Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.  
  5:13   Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work:  
  5:14   But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.  
  5:15   And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and [that] the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.  
  5:16   Honour thy father and thy mother, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.  
  5:17   Thou shalt not kill.  
  5:18   Neither shalt thou commit adultery.  
  5:19   Neither shalt thou steal.  
  5:20   Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.  
  5:21   Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbour's wife, neither shalt thou covet thy neighbour's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or any [thing] that [is] thy neighbour's.  
  5:22   These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and .....he added no more.
   And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.  (Duet.)

5:8   Thou shalt not make thee [any] graven image, [or] any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the waters beneath the earth:

I am sure you have no pictures or likenessof anything that is in heaven above or in the earth beneath. That would be a picture of a tree, a child, medow, cloud, flowers, surly you do not read a magizine that has such  law breaking likeness or picture. Or is verse EX 5:8 less of a commandment than 5:12? If you have such likeness how do you justify them?

[Jemidon2004]

Ok dreamweaver...just makin sure you were aware of that...i read that and i was like 'whoa' what in the world...but i was just making sure...like you said no one will know completely who the 2 witnesses are in the Trib. Period. Oh yea and to you Reba...thanks for the support. Like yous aid we may not agree on doctrine 100% of the time, but as long as you believe in salvation through Christ and Christ alone through the remission of our sins and his death burial and resurrection and that His death on the cross was for all mankind...we're peachy keen together...lol Anywho i gotta deal with silver right quick.

hey silver bub...what gives you the right to say all the churchs who hold sunday morning worship are breaking the 4th commandment of God...well, if you remember Jesus came to fulfill the law...and Paul said that we ain't under the Law anymore, but are under Grace. So how is it that we still have to follow the Jewish Law which says that the Sabbath is one Saturday...but that ain't the issue on which day is the sabbath. The issue is that each and every day we are to worship God, If i remember the psalmist david saying "I will praise you from the morning, to the evening" the verse eludes me. But we worship the LORD OF THE SABBATH, so it shouldn't matter what time of day or when we worship God...if it's on Sunday, then by all means you shouldn't be blasting those who do that by saying they break the law...remember this is a different dispensation...one of Grace, and not the Law, cause if we were to follow the whole law there ain't no way...cause Jewish law found 613 commandments that one had to follow...now i don't know about you, but i wouldn't be able to do it...matter of fact i don't know of anyone else who did other than Christ Himself...so don't let your pride blind you into making statements like:

Do you realize that I belong to the church that  God identifies, as His ?
"Here is the patience of the saints...here are they that keep the commandments of God, and have the faith of Jesus", (Revelation 14:12).


Do you realize that it is Satan, who opposes those people who obey God ?
"And the dragon (Satan) was angry with the woman (Church) and went to make  WAR...with the remnant of her seed, which keeps the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ", (Revelation 12:17).

No church, that holds Sunday worship services, fits this description...because they are breaking the 4th commandment of God.

it's dangerous doing this friend...just watch your step lest satan take advantage of you...look...i myself am a baptist...and have seen other baptists who are full of zeal mess up and make the mistake of saying they belong to the church of Christ that will enter into heaven. Now there's nothing wrong with saying you are part of the Body of Christ, but when you go and say that no church that holds sunday worship services fits this description, you're accusing part of the Body of Christ. So take what you wish...and do what you wish friend...i just doin't want to see ya mess up and say something that ain't Biblical. Just a few observations.

In His Service,
Joshua