Public Education

[sincereheart]

Unless your training was spectacularly poor, I don't believe you aren't making use of what you learned, even if its just what to avoid.

Now see, that's what I was saying about attending public school. It helped me learn to avoid it!  

Seriously though, my 'training' did help me learn that there is no big mystery to teaching. The best teachers seem to take to it instinctively. The 'training' seems to consist mostly of learning the paperwork.  

I'm still highly skeptical that you can do as well in certain specialist subjects such as maths and science unless you have the appropriate background and understand of how kids learn (and don't learn) those subjects.

My oldest daughter takes Spanish. I took French in high school and college. I can't help her there. Does that mean we can't homeschool? Nope. It just means that I have to find other alternatives.

Have you ever heard of a publically (or privately) schooled student needing extra help? There's always a high school student available to tutor and there are Huntington and Sylvan learning centers, etc. IOW, being 'schooled' by a teacher who specializes in a subject matter is no guarantee that the student will still 'get it'.

There are some awesome teachers out there. I have no problem with that! I do have a problem with the whole institutionalized, 'one-size fits all', idea.

 

[ebia]

Seriously though, my 'training' did help me learn that there is no big mystery to teaching. The best teachers seem to take to it instinctively. The 'training' seems to consist mostly of learning the paperwork.  

Sounds like the training is very different there than here.

I'm still highly skeptical that you can do as well in certain specialist subjects such as maths and science unless you have the appropriate background and understand of how kids learn (and don't learn) those subjects.

My oldest daughter takes Spanish. I took French in high school and college. I can't help her there. Does that mean we can't homeschool? Nope. It just means that I have to find other alternatives.

Have you ever heard of a publically (or privately) schooled student needing extra help? There's always a high school student available to tutor and there are Huntington and Sylvan learning centers, etc.

At least half the tutors I've encountered have been very poor, and that's when they are on top of having an adequate classroom (maths) teacher.  Several have been worse than useless.

IOW, being 'schooled' by a teacher who specializes in a subject matter is no guarantee that the student will still 'get it'.

Of course not.

There are some awesome teachers out there. I have no problem with that! I do have a problem with the whole institutionalized, 'one-size fits all', idea.

It's not ideal - I'm not claiming it is - but it's all that's feasible for the vast majority of people, and I still maintain that it stands up pretty well against homeschooling.  Each system has its advantages and its disadvantages.

The very best homeschooling should equal the very best schooling, and probably does.

I'm sceptical that most homeschooling is significantly better than most public schooling, but there is no way we can ever tell for sure.

I'm certain that if most people homeschoooled the standard they would achieve would be terrible.

[colleen]

Hmm.  I should state I don't have kids, and so I have no authority.

I went to public school in the US. I feel that certain areas of my education were lacking.  However, I am grateful to have had the education I did.  I am working on furthering my education now.  I think I want to go into physical therapy or botany (Hey, I'm only 22.  I don't have to make a decision yet).  I personally don't think it is that bad for a child as long as you are parents like mine that constantly ask questions about what I learned.  My mother was always able to help me with english and sciences and my father was great with maths and technical things.  They gave me a good home foundation to learn from to supplement what I learned in school.  

I have personally seen homeschooling go both ways as I have public education.  I dated a homeschooled guy and him and his sister both were smart, but one could tell they were behind on things.  His sister went to a community college and ended up having to take longer b/c she had to take a ton of catch up classes.  He never really had the desire to further his education and as far as I know he still lives at home and works at a casino.  Now I date a guy who loves education.  He grew up in a small town and had lacking education... he was taking college courses in highschool b/c they couldn't offer him what he needed.  He recieved his bachelors in chemistry and is currently working on his Master's.  I see him, and he has such a desire to teach and to care about really getting it across to students and I wish more teachers really had his passion for it.  I can't say my teachers were awful, and I think I was fortunate to have the ones I did.  

My bf and I, as we look at a future together, have discussed homeschool and public.  We both agree that public school was lacking, but there is the question of whether or not we'd really be better teachers.  Private education is non-appealing b/c of costs.  He and I didn't really choose careers that would support sending a kid to private schooling. I guess we are still undecided for now.  Which is fine.  We aren't married and we have no kids (we like that no sex until marriage idea, and no I'm not taking jabs at anyone...just saying) and so we don't really have to worry about it too much.  

[His_child]

ebia- do you know any homeschoolers?

I believe I've already answered that:

Quote:
Have you ever homeschooled or been homeschooled?

 
No, but I've friends who do.

Sorry, my mistake. I didn't see where you had answered that.
I've debated homeschooling issues on and off the internet for 6 years now. The comments you've made seem to be very standard from someone who has had very little to no experience with homeschoolers.

What about from a different angle. There are those of us who are homeschooling children who are learning disabled (LD). My daughter has dysgraphia- something that a good deal of teachers know very little, if anything, about.
If I put her in public schools she will be placed in LD classes for everything.
She isn't LD in all areas.
She is 11.
Words like Parimaribo and Paraguay (recent spelling words) are a breeze for her to spell verbally, but she has a hard time getting them down on paper.
How would public schooling help her when I know more about the type of LD she has then they do?

I never heard of this particular LD until I went looking to see why my daughter's handwriting was so sloppy and she was missing so many spelling words in the third grade. I found out what the LD was and how to work around it. I learned how to teach a child with this LD and I can learn how to teach her other topics as they arise.

[sincereheart]

Sounds like the training is very different there than here.

Possibly. What were you 'taught' that made a difference in your teaching? Here in the US, I've found that most of what is taught is 'common sense' stuff.

At least half the tutors I've encountered have been very poor, and that's when they are on top of having an adequate classroom (maths) teacher.  Several have been worse than useless.

As has been my experience with the teachers. The ones that are good are really good. They care. But several have been  worse than useless.   However, with tutors, you have the option of stopping the sessions. With teachers, it's a major battle to get your child out of that room.

It's not ideal - I'm not claiming it is - but it's all that's feasible for the vast majority of people, and I still maintain that it stands up pretty well against homeschooling.

I agree that it's all that most people think is feasible. However, having had my children in public, Christian, private and home schools, as well as having taught in them, I find that homeschooling is the best overall.

We can go to a restaurant and eat. It's easier. But I can take the time to find out what my family likes and incorporate that into the most nutritionally beneficial meals and say that I think that it's the best option.

The very best homeschooling should equal the very best schooling, and probably does.

The very best homeschooling should, and most often does, exceed the very best public schooling.

[ebia]

Sorry, my mistake. I didn't see where you had answered that.
 

No worries.

What about from a different angle. There are those of us who are homeschooling children who are learning disabled (LD). My daughter has dysgraphia- something that a good deal of teachers know very little, if anything, about.
If I put her in public schools she will be placed in LD classes for everything.
She isn't LD in all areas.
She is 11.
Words like Parimaribo and Paraguay (recent spelling words) are a breeze for her to spell verbally, but she has a hard time getting them down on paper.
How would public schooling help her when I know more about the type of LD she has then they do?

In an ideal world all teachers would be properly trained in all the learning difficulties they come across.  Of course, that isn't the reality.   Good teachers are pretty good at adapting to the individual needs of each student, many of which are diagnosable and (as I'm sure you are aware) the individual needs of kids diagnosed with the same LD can be wildly different.  My spouse has dysgraphia, and can't spell decently verbally or on paper, for example.

I never heard of this particular LD until I went looking to see why my daughter's handwriting was so sloppy and she was missing so many spelling words in the third grade. I found out what the LD was and how to work around it. I learned how to teach a child with this LD and I can learn how to teach her other topics as they arise. [/color]

I've never argued that homeschooling is never better - in her case it may be that you are a naturally competent teacher, and your ability to cater for her (greater than average) individual needs outweighs your lack of training in the individual KLAs, at least at a junior level & middle school level.

[ebia]

Possibly. What were you 'taught' that made a difference in your teaching? Here in the US, I've found that most of what is taught is 'common sense' stuff.

Most of the general teaching stuff was an introduction to educational theories (far from common sense), courses designed to make us think deeply about learning, curriculum, classroom management, etc, etc.  On the maths side, what the pitfalls are, where kids pick up misconceptions, how to diagnose them, etc - how to avoid the mistakes of a "common sense" approach to teaching maths.  In teaching maths, there are many instances where common ways of explaining something tend to produce disasterous misconceptions - and you can easily find those bad methods in text books of only a decade or so ago.  Hardly any of it was common sense, though some of it was a waste of time.

The course here is designed to prepare teachers for the long haul, not to equip them in the short term, so you go out to your first job very green compared with countries where the course equips people well for their first job (like the US?), but we tend to produce better teachers in the medium to long term.  Most of what you learn about the practicalities of teaching, you learn during your teaching practice rounds and your first term in the job.

At least half the tutors I've encountered have been very poor, and that's when they are on top of having an adequate classroom (maths) teacher.  Several have been worse than useless.

As has been my experience with the teachers. The ones that are good are really good. They care. But several have been  worse than useless.  

I've yet to encounter any teachers who are worse than useless yet.  I have met a few who clearly are in the wrong job.

However, with tutors, you have the option of stopping the sessions. With teachers, it's a major battle to get your child out of that room.

Can't argue with that.

It's not ideal - I'm not claiming it is - but it's all that's feasible for the vast majority of people, and I still maintain that it stands up pretty well against homeschooling.

I agree that it's all that most people think is feasible. However, having had my children in public, Christian, private and home schools, as well as having taught in them, I find that homeschooling is the best overall.

For you, that may be true.   Most parents are not so well equiped to do the job.   Many can't even manage to ensure they kids get to school everyday, on time and properly equipped.  A very large proportion don't take the time to read with their children or instill a love of learning.  And these are parents who care enough about education to pay a (very modest) fee to send their kids to a Catholic school.  In government schools its considerably worse. If parent's can't manage the basics to back up a public eductation, the results of them trying to homeschool would be disasterous.

We can go to a restaurant and eat. It's easier. But I can take the time to find out what my family likes and incorporate that into the most nutritionally beneficial meals and say that I think that it's the best option.

That's fine if you understand and care enough to put in the hard work, but if your home cooking consists of fish-fingers and chips every night (or whatever the US equivalent would be) then using the restaurant might be the better option.

The very best homeschooling should equal the very best schooling, and probably does.

The very best homeschooling should, and most often does, exceed the very best public schooling.

It may well do, but how can you know this?

[His_child]

OK- for starters I want to say that I'm not anti-public school.
In fact, the local ps had their graduation for the 5th graders today and they invited my daughter and other hs students to participate. We were the only hs family to show up.
I've had many opportunities to get to know many of the teachers and faculty of the school.
We are a small town and most (if not all) of the teachers and the faculty live in this town.

As good as our ps is, there are many problems with it.
There are the religious problems (i.e. "winter solace" instead of Christmas break.)
Academic problems. Many of the students that graduated in today's ceremony were reading at the 5th grade reading level. Unfortunately, it's the 5th grade reading level of today. We have had a "dumbing down" in the ps and what is considered 5th grade today would have been considered about 3rd or lower in years past.
Teachers overstepping their bounds. It is legal for a teacher or school counselor, etc. to drive a student to an abortion clinic to have an abortion and they are not allowed to tell the parents about it. Can't take them on a field trip with out parental consent, but you can drive them to a slaughter house to have their unborn baby murdered and possibly endanger their own health. There is something really wrong with that.

That being said, I do have a situation that needs prayer.
My daughters are 16 and 11.
The 16 year old will continue to be hs'ed because she is autistic and has some other LDs going on. She doesn't do well around a lot of other people, even her peers.
I have been working full time since October.
My husband has been laid off since March of 2003.
He has been having struggles with depression and has put little effort into finding work or hs'ing the girls.
Therefore, I've been working full time and doing the schooling.
I have to find a second full time job so that we can make ends meet. I am seriously considering putting the 11 year old in ps because I can not work two full time jobs and hs two girls.

When I decided to hs, I really felt that was what the Lord wanted for our family. I no longer feel that. I really feel that He is leading us to ps. Unfortunately, my husband doesn't understand and wants me to continue hs.

I'm not supermom or wonderwoman. Nor will I pretend to be.
Please all, be in prayer for our family as we make this decision.

[ebia]

OK- for starters I want to say that I'm not anti-public school.
In fact, the local ps had their graduation for the 5th graders today and they invited my daughter and other hs students to participate. We were the only hs family to show up.
I've had many opportunities to get to know many of the teachers and faculty of the school.
We are a small town and most (if not all) of the teachers and the faculty live in this town.

As good as our ps is, there are many problems with it.
There are the religious problems (i.e. "winter solace" instead of Christmas break.)

I've no problem with using religion free terms (though I don't see the need - Christmas is part of our culture even for non-Christians).  

Academic problems. Many of the students that graduated in today's ceremony were reading at the 5th grade reading level. Unfortunately, it's the 5th grade reading level of today. We have had a "dumbing down" in the ps and what is considered 5th grade today would have been considered about 3rd or lower in years past.

The drop in reading standards in schools is more to do with what's happening at home.  If kids aren't practicing their reading at home (which many more are not), then their readings standards will drop.  For those kids who do have homes where reading takes priority, there isn't a drop.  Although I would critisise some of what they are given to read at younger ages here - many of the "readers" are, quite honestly, boring.

Teachers overstepping their bounds. It is legal for a teacher or school counselor, etc. to drive a student to an abortion clinic to have an abortion and they are not allowed to tell the parents about it.

Doesn't sound like teachers are overstepping their bounds, but the authorities who set the rules are.  Teachers have to work with the rules and guidelines that the authority sets.  If the authorities say that teachers must not tell parents, then they can't, can they?

Can't take them on a field trip with out parental consent, but you can drive them to a slaughter house to have their unborn baby murdered and possibly endanger their own health. There is something really wrong with that.

This isn't about education at all, but society putting (quite frankly, unfair) roles and responsibilities onto teachers and schools that have nothing to do with education and little to do with reasonable pastoral care.

That being said, I do have a situation that needs prayer.
My daughters are 16 and 11.
The 16 year old will continue to be hs'ed because she is autistic and has some other LDs going on. She doesn't do well around a lot of other people, even her peers.
I have been working full time since October.
My husband has been laid off since March of 2003

Ouch

I'm not supermom or wonderwoman. Nor will I pretend to be.
Please all, be in prayer for our family as we make this decision.

Will do.

[ebia]

Possibly. What were you 'taught' that made a difference in your teaching? Here in the US, I've found that most of what is taught is 'common sense' stuff.

Most of the general teaching stuff was an introduction to educational theories (far from common sense), courses designed to make us think deeply about learning, curriculum, classroom management, etc, etc.  On the maths side, what the pitfalls are, where kids pick up misconceptions, how to diagnose them, etc - how to avoid the mistakes of a "common sense" approach to teaching maths.  In teaching maths, there are many instances where common ways of explaining something tend to produce disasterous misconceptions - and you can easily find those bad methods in text books of only a decade or so ago.  Hardly any of it was common sense, though some of it was a waste of time.

The course here is designed to prepare teachers for the long haul, not to equip them in the short term, so you go out to your first job very green compared with countries where the course equips people well for their first job (like the US?), but we tend to produce better teachers in the medium to long term.  Most of what you learn about the practicalities of teaching, you learn during your teaching practice rounds and your first term in the job.

FWIW, last night I happened to be speaking to a very senior and highly regarded (Australian) maths educator who currently writes resource material for American maths teachers, and he tells me that the standard of training of most [maths] teachers in the US is much lower than here in Australia.

[Kano]

 The problem with many christians is that they want to hide their children from the many harsh realities life presents.

 Public education is important for a child. It helps them learn to interact socially, to learn right from wrong, and make thier own mistakes. It helps prepare a child for the adult world waiting for them.

 You can hide a child from life as much as you want, but when they turn into adults and get jobs, move out, and explore life, they'll be shocked by stuff they never would have imagined existed.

 As christians, you shouldn't find ignorance as a haven for your children. Instead, teach them right from wrong, and let them make their own destinies. Your god gave you free will for a reason.

 It will also help teach them the guises that lies take, and it will help them be able to uncover them.

[sincereheart]

LOL! Kano, As a self-proclaimed agnostic I don't suppose you have any children, either?


ebia,
FWIW, last night I happened to be speaking to a very senior and highly regarded (Australian) maths educator who currently writes resource material for American maths teachers, and he tells me that the standard of training of most [maths] teachers in the US is much lower than here in Australia.
This doesn't surprise me. Saddens me, though.

[JudgeNot]

Replies to Kano

The problem with many christians is that they want to hide their children from the many harsh realities life presents.

As a non-Christian you know no more about how a Christian thinks than you do a grasshopper.  Now, if you had said: "Many Christians want to protect their children from the many harsh un-realities life presents until they are mentally prepared to discern secular propaganda from truth" you would be more correct.

It helps them learn to interact socially,

Socially in whose society?  Yours?  That phrase is just more secular crap.

to learn right from wrong

Ha-ha!!!! Just the oposite - it teaches them to be secular: exactly what the anti-God crowd wants.

You can hide a child from life as much as you want

That is the most prevalent argument secularists use, simply because the to the unknowlegable secular-humanist's brain, it "sounds" good.  To be perfectly frank - it is an ignorant statement.

As christians, you shouldn't find ignorance as a haven for your children.

That is the most foolish statement you made, and why I will not bother to read or reply to any more of your godless rhetoric.

Get a life.  Get Jesus.