A Scene at the Great White Throne...Oops!

[blainefabin]

If it weren't for Purgatory...you would never make it to heaven...as your faith in Jesus Christ is not enough to save you from your sins says Rome. Jesus Christ says otherwise...

not true. if it weren't for jesus christ you wouldn't even make it to purgatory. again get your facts straight. purgatory doesn't save from sin. it purges one of the temporal effects of sins that have already been forgiven.

mike

it purges one of the temporal effects of sins that have already been forgiven.

I forgot to ask you in my above post and I was interested in this statement by you, can you please explain what "the temporal effects of sins " are?

Thanks...

temporal effects of sin falls into the concept of a just god. we sin, and because he is merciful he forgives us, but his forgiveness does not repair the damage done, it only makes our relationship with him right again.

ie. if i commit adultery and ask god to forgive me (truly repent confess etc.) he will forgive me. but because my sin has consequenses outside of myself such as my wife, children the woman i commited adultery with, etc, there is a cost apart from what god forgives. if a man is gay and gets aids... he may repents find salvation, but because God forgives him doesn't mean that he is cured of aids.. these are what indulgences and purgatory are all about. the sin is forgiven and our relation ship with christ is restored but there is still damage and consequences that result. in a way purgatory may be caried out for the most part here on earth, as we seek to restore the damage caused by our sin through penance. in the end purgatory is really a part of Gods grace as it purifies us and prepares us to see god face to face. in the end it really comes down to the concopt of god's justice... in that even adolf hitler could have repented 5 minutes before he died. god in his mercy would save him by christs blood as well as purify him and prepare him in purgatory (since all temporal justice is removed) and make him ready to stand in gods presence, without forsaking justice for the crimes commited.

as you can see purgatory doesn't pay for our sins.

mike

[sincereheart]

Matthew 1:
25 But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son.

 

But if he didn't, then:

1 Corinthians 7:
3 The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife.

 

[Heidi]

Sorry, Michael, I have already provided my explanations about my beliefs and interpretations of scripture in VIVID detail. Now it's your turn.

[Heidi]

Blain, what you just explained is consequences we pay on earth. Did you sense what purgatory is through the bible or the catholic doctrine?I'm lucky that I didn't have the catholic doctrine to interpret the bible for me. Since I became born again, I just read the bible everyday and believe it. Then I don't have to believe by rote or memorizing what someone taught me to believe. I only believe what makes sense with the rest of scripture as discerned by the Holy Spirit.

[michael_legna]

Sorry, Michael, I have already provided my explanations about my beliefs and interpretations of scripture in VIVID detail.  

Point me to a post where you have done so and I will respond to that post.  But I have been watching and you have never done anything I have seen in VIVID detail.  You prefer instead to jump from point to point verse slinging with single references in isolation never wanting to be tied down to a stand that might be shown to be wrong and when others do address your points with scripture references as I myself have even tried to do to your scattered points you simply refuse to even address them or discuss alternate interpretations prefering instead to ignore the word of God when quoted by others.

Now it's your turn.

I wouldn't know where to start as the Catholic doctrine is huge and because it is self consistent it is all tied together so if I begin by defending some point at random I could spend a great deal of time convincing you of something you already accept.  That is why I must wait for you to stabilize and rest on one point that you want to seriously and deeply evaluate - so far you have shown no interest in do such deep study.  i suspect this is because you know the results would threaten your view of the world and it is just easier to hold on to your hatred even if it is wrongly based.

I am not here to force my opinion or interpretations of scripture on anyone else.  I am here to clear up misconceptions and false representations of the Catholic Church's doctrine, both of which you suffer from.  So if you are sincerely interested in the truth - I ask you once again to have the courage to place your issues out for consideration; one at a time, with references and specific details and the scriptures you feel are applicable along with your interpretation of those scriptures so we can see what you think is wrong.  If you have already done that point me to a post by thread name and number and I will respond to it.

Otherwise stop spreading falsehoods, hatred and prejudice you are not willing to stand behind.

[ebia]

Matthew 1:
25 But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son.

 

The word translated "until" doesn't carry the same implication of change after that the English word until has.  Matt 1:25 says that they had no union before Jesus was born and says nothing about after.

But if he didn't, then:

1 Corinthians 7:
3 The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife.

 

Well, they had't read Corinthians had they.

Seriously, though - that's not a problem if it's their mutual discision.  Or, more accurately, their mutual understanding of the will of God.

[Heidi]

Michael,

You can start with the questions i asked you several pages ago. Please tell us where Jesus said to pray to his mother. Please tell us where he said to call the pope Holy Father. Please tell us where he said to make fasting a public event. My explanations and quotes are all over this forum. You can start with the three questions i asked you.

[blainefabin]

Blain, what you just explained is consequences we pay on earth. Did you sense what purgatory is through the bible or the catholic doctrine?I'm lucky that I didn't have the catholic doctrine to interpret the bible for me. Since I became born again, I just read the bible everyday and believe it. Then I don't have to believe by rote or memorizing what someone taught me to believe. I only believe what makes sense with the rest of scripture as discerned by the Holy Spirit.

yes purgatory was first understood through catholic doctrine when i was a non catholic. of course i rejected it then as you do based on lack of scriptural support. but then as i was investigating some concepts of hell i found that the concept actually comes before the church, in rabbinical teaching so it was not a matter of catholic invention. as time went by i realized that i may not have understood the concept of purgatory without the teaching of the church, like i would not have know what the bible was, without the church. not only that but the tradition the church appeals to is one that understood things we cannot understand today because we are removed from the culture they are written in. in other words the concept of purgatory really is a scriptural concept, but we have been taught, you and me, that it is not.

btw even if i still believed like you that i am my own personal pope, i would be in disagreement with you.... that is the sad fact of being a protestant.

i would not have understood the concept of the millenium or the rapture from just a surface reading of scripture. i would not have ever gotten the concept of reading scripture everyday and "sensing" what it tells me. i would not have gotten the mentality of being "born again saved" or faith alone, or dispensationalism, or about half a dozen other concepts prevalent in the protestant church today.  if i were to read the scripture and "sense" anything it would probably be to find a church with apostles in it.

but let me ask you something.... when paul went to the bereans "who most certainly were noble" what scriptures do you think they appealed to when paul brought to them the new teaching that circumcision was useless? tell me this did the bereans get it from the bible or the church?

mike

[AVBunyan]

Michael,

You can start with the questions i asked you several pages ago. Please tell us where Jesus said to pray to his mother. Please tell us where he said to call the pope Holy Father.

Now, Heidi, shame on you using such persecuting words  .  I mean how dare you ask such a simple question.    The answer should be insteresting.  Do you like answers using psycological warfare?  I hope so because that is what I suspect you will get.  Do not, I said, do not expect a simple, scriptural answer, but more of a long dissertion resorting to how mean and unloving you and I are.  Oh, I forgot, how we misrepresent and slander Rome.  I've seen their own Canons show what they believed was contrary to  scripture - but remember, scripture means nothing to Rome, espcecially when it crosses their Canons and teachings for then scripture is from the "back seat" and then thrown completely out the window.

In fact a good excercise would be to find any scripture that supports anything Rome believes.  Well, maybe the trinity, maybe, not sure about that!  Yes, I'm exagerating a bit here - but not much.  Think about it - take the main teachings of Rome and see if scripture supports any of them.

May God bless.

By the way - has anybody wondered what the "BW" stands for in "Mr. BW"?  

[michael_legna]

Michael,

You can start with the questions i asked you several pages ago. Please tell us where Jesus said to pray to his mother. Please tell us where he said to call the pope Holy Father. Please tell us where he said to make fasting a public event. My explanations and quotes are all over this forum. You can start with the three questions i asked you.

That is not what I asked of you.  First I have to point out that I asked you to pick one topic to research thoroughly - these are three questions and I will not allow you to hide you ignorance amid a vague shotgun approach.  Second your quotes and explanations are not all over this forum.  Your opinions are but they are badly lacking in quotes or scripture references.  Time to get serious and scholarly if you want to know the truth or at least stop spreading prejudice you cannot support.

I am not trying to convince you of the doctrines of the Church I am just trying to correct your misunderstandings of them or of the misinterpretation of scripture.

So you tell me what about those doctrines you see as contrary to scripture and what scripture you think applies and what your intepretation of it is.

I will, in good faith, start out with a cursory response (though even this will contain more detail than your opinions wiuth which you attack these issues) to your questions.  I do hope you are interested in the truth and will respond with the scriptures and your interpretations of them which you feel are contrary to these doctrines of the Church as you understand them.

Catholics do not pray to Mary, Jesus' mother or any other saints.  We pray through them and with them just as we would ask another Christian on earth to pray for us.

Please tell me where Jesus said not to call the Pope Holy Father.  The reference to Matt 23:8-11 (which you have never offered an interpretation of - except for a simplistic literal reading of it in isolation ignoring its relationship to the rest of God's word) does not apply else Paul was in violation of it.  We alos would find ourselves in violation of it by refering to people as teacher, since that is the translation of the term rabbi.

Mat 23:8  But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
Mat 23:9  And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Mat 23:10  Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
Mat 23:11  But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

Catholics do not make fasting a public event.  i don't know where you got that notion.  The Church does set aside specific times in which it recommends fasting, but no Catholic following the proper teachings of the Church makes a public issue of their obedience to this instruction.

So as you can see in these three issues you either do not understand the doctrines of the Church and so if you continue to attack the Church you over them you will be practicing prejudice or else because of your superficial analysis you have no scriptural support for your concern of contradiction with God's word.

If you think there is an issue here you feel you can support with deeper study I will be glad to consider it with you, but be prepared to do more than just repeat your opinions with no support like you have done with others who have corrected you over these same issues.

[michael_legna]

Michael,

You can start with the questions i asked you several pages ago. Please tell us where Jesus said to pray to his mother. Please tell us where he said to call the pope Holy Father.

Now, Heidi, shame on you using such persecuting words  .  I mean how dare you ask such a simple question.    

You should take this criticism to heart within yourself for you know full well you do the same thing.  You attack your version of doctrines of the Catholic Church knowing full well (after being corrected many times over them)  that you have them wrong and you know that is bigoted and prejudice.  asking questions or attacking someone over something you know is a fake representation, no matter how simple it seems, is hatred.  So how dare you practice hatred.

The answer should be insteresting.  Do you like answers using psycological warfare?  I hope so because that is what I suspect you will get.  

If you consider people pointing out your prejudice to be psychological warefare then you are more in denial than I suspected.

Do not, I said, do not expect a simple, scriptural answer, but more of a long dissertion resorting to how mean and unloving you and I are.  Oh, I forgot, how we misrepresent and slander Rome.  

Actually she got a scriptural answer though not a simple one as the message of the gospel is not simple.  That is why those of you trying to read and comprehend the entire Bible in light of itself without even being able to recall all of it at once cannot get your doctrines to even be self consistent let alone be proper doctrines.  She also got a similar explanation to the one I just gave you about misrepresentation being a form of prejudice and hatred.

I've seen their own Canons show what they believed was contrary to  scripture

If this were true you could win these debates by simply quoting from these Canons to show how they contradict scripture but you have not been able to do that.  Why is that?  Is it because you haven't really seen these Canons?  Ort is it because you didn't properly understand them because your review was so superficial?  Or is it because these Canons don't really contradict scripture?

- but remember, scripture means nothing to Rome, espcecially when it crosses their Canons and teachings for then scripture is from the "back seat" and then thrown completely out the window.

It is this type of lie about Catholics and the Catholic Church that shows your real bigotry.  The Catholic Church acknowledges scripture as the word of God and you know it.

In fact a good excercise would be to find any scripture that supports anything Rome believes.  Well, maybe the trinity, maybe, not sure about that!  Yes, I'm exagerating a bit here - but not much.  Think about it - take the main teachings of Rome and see if scripture supports any of them.

I offer you the same chance as Heidi - pick a doctrine of the Church (try to stay on one topic and not hide behind vaguries) and tell me why you think it contradicts scripture.  I will require you to provide a reference to scripture and tell me how you interpret that scripture, but that should be easy to someone like you who claims to know so much.

[blainefabin]

Michael,

You can start with the questions i asked you several pages ago. Please tell us where Jesus said to pray to his mother. Please tell us where he said to call the pope Holy Father.

Now, Heidi, shame on you using such persecuting words  .  I mean how dare you ask such a simple question.    The answer should be insteresting.  Do you like answers using psycological warfare?  I hope so because that is what I suspect you will get.  Do not, I said, do not expect a simple, scriptural answer, but more of a long dissertion resorting to how mean and unloving you and I are.  Oh, I forgot, how we misrepresent and slander Rome.  I've seen their own Canons show what they believed was contrary to  scripture - but remember, scripture means nothing to Rome, espcecially when it crosses their Canons and teachings for then scripture is from the "back seat" and then thrown completely out the window.

In fact a good excercise would be to find any scripture that supports anything Rome believes.  Well, maybe the trinity, maybe, not sure about that!  Yes, I'm exagerating a bit here - but not much.  Think about it - take the main teachings of Rome and see if scripture supports any of them.

May God bless.

By the way - has anybody wondered what the "BW" stands for in "Mr. BW"?  

av catholicism as well as orthodoxy believes in the scripture and tradition,,, this you know well, it is what we profess. if you disagree with that then you disagree but our theology is in keeping with this belief. this belief is entirely scriptural...as i asked heidi, how did the bereans know that paul was speaking truth when he claimed that circumcision was of no benefit? what scripture did they use so as not to rely on the tradition of men? provide this information please otherwise your argument is without grounds.

what is interesting is how protestants and baptists profess the comlete opposite... mainly that everything has to be found in the bible apart from tradition... and yet some of the most popular traditions in the non-catholic realm are purely figments of tradition. the rapture, millenialism, scripture alone, faith alone,  denominationalism, dispensationalism.... these are all traditions of men.

it should be no surprise to see a tradition in catholicism, it is very interesting though that it is just as foundational in protestantism.

anyway instead of weak insinuations and accusations maybe you could back up your statements with facts....rather than psycological warfare.   that would be nice.


Act 15:22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; [namely], Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:  
 Act 15:23 And they wrote [letters] by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren [send] greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:  
 Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, [Ye must] be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no [such] commandment:  
 Act 15:25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,  
 Act 15:26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.  
 Act 15:27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell [you] the same things by mouth.  
 Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;  
 Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.  

sacred tradition at work.... what scriptures did they appeal to?


mike

[michael_legna]

Act 15:22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; [namely], Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:  
 Act 15:23 And they wrote [letters] by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren [send] greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:  
 Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, [Ye must] be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no [such] commandment:  
 Act 15:25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,  
 Act 15:26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.  
 Act 15:27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell [you] the same things by mouth.  
 Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;  
 Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.  

sacred tradition at work.... what scriptures did they appeal to?

mike

I was so happy to see you reference these verses as they so clearly show the authority the Church understood itself to have from the very beginning.

A deep analysis of the chapter reveals alot.  The following is a taste of such an analysis.

Act 15:6  And the apostles and ancients assembled to consider of this matter.

The Church leaders come together to authoritatively consider an interpretation of scripture that the general followers and members of the Church could not decide on their own being without the infallible personal guidance of the Holy Spirit with regards to interpretation.  That is why Peter is told in the end of the Book of John to feed His sheep and the sheep are never told anywhere in scripture to feed themselves.

Act 15:24  Forasmuch as we have heard that some going out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, to whom we gave no commandment:

We see that some had been teaching without permission, showing us that you cannot just go off and declare yourself a minister of God’s word.  You need to be ordained through a laying on of hands by a proper member of the leadership of the Church.  The result of not following this scriptural based method is false doctrine.

Act 15:25  It hath seemed good to us, being assembled together, to choose out men and to send them unto you, with our well beloved Barnabas and Paul:

The Church leadership decided how best to handle this problem and this time it was by sending out messengers, of which Paul was one.  They did not get the solution to handling the problem from scripture they decided this themselves with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Act 15:28  For it hath seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us to lay no further burden upon you than these necessary things:

We see here that the leaders have access to the statements of the Holy Spirit.  It is also evident that statement of the Holy Ghost and the Church are placed on par, mentioned as they are in the same breath.  This is just as they should be since it is the Holy Spirit who was promised by Christ to the Church to help it prevail even against the gates of Hell and to give it the authority to bind and loose on earth as it is in heaven.

The authority the Catholic Church claims (as the Church of Christ) is the very same authority that we see being exercised at the Council of Jerusalem.  It is not something that was invented late in history as some Protestants claim.

[AVBunyan]

Please tell me where Jesus said not to call the Pope Holy Father.  

Incredible reasoning  

What about the only time the phrase Holy Father is used is when Jesus is addressing God the Father?

And Rome sees no problem with calling someone on earth Holy Father?  No one on this earth is holy.  I don't care if it is
just a "title" - that phrase is used by Jesus to address the God of this universe only.   A total disregard for the authority of scripture!  You can fool your people but not us.

[Heidi]

The gospel is very definitely so simple that even children can understand it. Or aren't you aware of Jesus's words to come to Him as little children, Michael? If you know those words, do you know what they mean? Again, my explanations and QUOTES of Jesus's words are all over this forum. But as Bunyan so aptly put it, i will not get simple answers but instead evasive answers through long discourses which are INTENDED to evade. Sorry, but we can see through you. I will begin to take you seriously when you provide quotes from Christ himself supporting your beliefs.