Paul2 vs. Petro's Pre-Wrath Rapture Pages

[Paul2]

Hi Paul2 I see all your work.. and it is good to have people trying to figger out the rapture...and putting all this work in to it..Anyway i have a question, you say the Church is in heaven when John is called up... what day did John say he was in the spirit when he was taken to heaven? Is it not the lords day? It wouldnt be hard to see the Church in heaven on the lords day..since this is the day the lord comes to take the Antichrist and fight his armys.  

Rev 1:10  I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Amo 5:20  Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?


Now you also say this trumpet is the rapture trumpet. Correct? If this is the rapture trumpet then he heard it on the lords day...how am i doing so far?

    The Trumpet of Revelation 4:1 is the voice of Jesus Christ. Let me post the verse and explain it.

Revelation 4:1  "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter."

    The first thing the we need to remember is the trumpet is really the voice of Christ. The voice of Christ does two things in this verse. First it calls John to the Lord's day in spirit. 2nd and most importantly it ends the period "of the things which are", the church age and begins "the things which must be hereafter." I'll post more on this at the bottom of the page.

So what does Jesus do at this trumpet on the lords day ...wait in the sky till the Antichrist sets himself up 3 1/2 years into the great tribulation... and then come to fight his armys? Because this is what he would need to do in order to come before the 7 year Trib.

    I don't understand what your asking or saying. You'll have to clarify what you mean.
   
    I've done alot of work related to the Pre-Tribulation Rapture interpretation of the thread titled "The best of Paul2's Pre-Trib. Rapture pages. On the first page of the thread I put some foundational information you should take time to read if your really interested. I'll give you a sample copied from that thread.

Welcome to Pre-Tribulation Rapture 101:

    First lets start at the book of Revelation. John was given a format to follow in writing the book and we are given a format to follow when reading the book. If you do not follow the format of the book you will surely misinterpret the context.

Revelation 1:19  "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

"Write the things which thou hast seen," What had he seen? The vision of Chapter 1. This is past tense. Stay with me this is really quite simple.

"and the things which are" What are the things which are? The seven letters to the seven Churches, Church things, the Church age. What is Jesus doing in the seven letters to the Churches? Jesus is walking, not sitting between the seven lamp stands, Jesus is judging His Church. This is present tense. Jesus is still judging His Church. This is still an on going action. He warned the seven Churches and he has judged the literal seven churches the letters were adderessed to because the lay in ruins today. The seven letters are also for us. We are being judged. The letters to philidelphia and Laodicea are also prophetic Letters to the church on earth now. Philidelphia is to be Raptured. Laodicea has doctinal errors causing it to be vomited out of the body of Christ and remain behind at the Rapture and its becomes the harlot of Revelation 17.

   We are living in the period of time between Chapter 1 and Chapter 4. This is Christs Church program, present tense.

   Lets look at the key verse again and finish this up shall we:

 Revelation 1:19  "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;


and the things which shall be hereafter; HERE AFTER WHAT? THE CHURCH! WE started with a vision, you'll notice some part of the vision in each of the seven letters, Then came the Seven letters which is Christ Speaking to His Church and actively judging it. The Church is still here and the seven letters still apply to us. At the Rapture Jesus completes the judgement of the Church. The dead and the living Church are judged. Laodicea is vomited out into the Tribulation. WE are still in the time period of the things which are.

and the things which shall be hereafter;  Here after is future tense. After the Rapture and the Church is judged. This is the beginning of the tribulation period.

    Now we need to find where the part of the verse and the things which shall be hereafter; fits in.

Revelation 4:1  "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

    Ok now put it all together. we left off at the seven letters and Christ judging His Church. we are living during "the things which are" present tense. This present period must end before "the things which must be hereafter" can begin. There must be an end of the Church age before the tribulation period can begin.

Revelation 4:1  "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
     
This is the Rapture! Theres your trumpet, Its the voice of Jesus. This open door is the same open door in the letter to the church of Philidephia, the Raptured church of those who were alive at the Rapture.

    This event in Chapter 4:1 is the Rapture and that event is what closes out the Age of Grace and the Church and Allows "the things which must be hereafter.to begin. The opening of the seven sealed scroll begins the tribulation, we are in heaven witnessing Jesus take the scroll from the Father. We are not destined for wrath. We are going to a Wedding.

   This is just one reason for pre-Tribulation Rapture but I'll keep adding on evidence as time permits me.

                                           The Pre-Trib View by Paul2
   
    AJ, lets move over to the best of Paul2's Pre-Trib. Rapture pages" thread to continue this discussion. There you will be able to go back through my posts and quote me directly. I'm interested in studing with you if you want to understand how the Pre-Tribulation Rapture interpretation works.

                                                            Paul2

[Paul2]

     Petro, Petro, Petro,

    Are you trying to take over this thread to with your no theories rules? You truely never cease to amaze me. This is my thread Petro just as the "best of Paul2's Pre-Trib. Rapture" is my thread. There are 333 reply's on that thread and 30 on this one as of now. I know this must disturb you.

    You could start your own thread and make the rules and even lock the thread. You could ask me not to post on your thread and I wouldn't. I don't mind you debating on my threads but I do resent you trying to control me and my thread.

    The reason you are on my threads is because this is where the action is. You don't want to have your own thread because the people you want to reach are on my threads. You've made it your mission to attack the  Pre-Trib. Rapture, anyone who believes it and most importantly keeping us from being able to effectively teach our interpretation.

    I think another reason you don't start your own thread is because attacking the Pre-Trib. Rapture is what you do. If you were to start your own Pre-Wrath Rapture page it would be boring because you never present the Pre-Wrath interpretation. You don't even know how it works.

   I can explain how my theory and interpretation work but you don't like my methods, too bad. I've seen where your method of study has left you unable to address when the effects of the 7 vials of God's Wrath take place on the earth in relation to the Rapture, the Second Coming and Daniel's 70th week. I presented some facts using Scripture but you won't address them.

    You see us Pre-Tribbers as you call us as a threat and thats why your here.

    Stop trying to control me and my threads Petro. If you want to be in control then start your own threads. If you want to post on my threads don't try to control them.

    You have a theory Petro and not facts. Fact of the matter is you can't present your facts or your theory. You claim to search for truth and facts but never seem to search out the "facts"and truth in my 4 part explaination of why your "theory" doesn't work.

    Fair is fair in love and debate! You want to attack then learn how to defend!

                                                        Paul2
 
                                                               

[Paul2]

    AJ,

    If you want to know something about the Pre-Tribulation interpretation ask me and I'll try to answer your question.

    Petro is hardly a relieable source on the subject. Petro can't explain his own Pre-Wrath theory never mind explain the Pre-Tribulation theory. Don't take Petro's word for things but start at page one of the "best of Paul2's Pre-Trib. Rapture pages" thread and read the debates for yourself. Petro is not very objective in the spin he puts on what he calls my Feeble attempts.

   Want to talk about feeble... The last time I made a "feeble attempt" It took me about 3 hours to destroy Petro's Pre-Wrath interpretation after months of trying to drag enough information about how his theory works out of him. Petro's theory fell like a house made of cards. Petro used the poker analagy so I thought I throw in my house of cards analagy.  

    Petro fears me and my teachings because I'm willing to explain my how my interpretation works and he can't. He'll claim its because of my methods but Petro can't explain and present how his theory works he doesn't want to allow anybody who can. Wait and see if Petro will engage in debate with EddieLee who is presenting the Pre-Wrath interpretation. EddieLee has understood the flaws with Petro's Pre-Wrath theory but I think Petro will be afraid to debate it for fear of his theory being proven wrong by somebody other than me.

    I'm not telling you what to think, Petro does that. I'm just letting you know that Petro is never going to give you anything positive about me. Don't judge me by what Petro says, judge me by what I say and have said. Petro wants to discredit me so people like you won't listen to what I have to say. Read my posts and judge them for yourself. You will also find 2nd timothys posts and Black-Eyed-Peas' post to be informative. I suggest taking some time and reading thru all of the posts. I know its a ton of posts enough to fill a book but there is a ton of debate and information which you may find fascinating if not informative.

    If you have any questions I'll try to give you answers. Petro won't like my answers but your not Petro. Give me the chance to explain the Pre-Tribulation theory before you totally reject it. See if I can present a reasonable case.

    Petro will probably send you a private message instructing you what to ask me but thats ok. I'll answer you but Petro needs to answer the first 5 posts on this thread before continueing with me. Petro would have you believe that I'm not willing to address certain issues but Petro is once again wrong. I'll discuss anything you want just ask but be prepared for my answers. I don't allow people to limit how I respond. Many things must be considered and I'll point them out as I go along. To understand the Pre-Wrath Rapture requires the most study and the most work. All Scripture must be considered.

   Its up to you AJ. I don't know what you want to do. If your interested in how the Pre-Trib. interpretation works just ask.

   I do look forward to discussing things with you.

                                                              Paul2

    I'm willing to discuss anything you want to discuss.

                                                             Paul2

[Paul2]

   
    AJ and anyone interested,

    I've given the reply #s to some of posts from the "Best of Paul2's Pre-Trib. Rapture pages. If anyone wants to know what I've said go there and read them for yourself. I wish poeple would read the whole thread but nobody ever does.

    It may seem like it will take a long time to read the posts I've have selected but it doesn't take long at all. If you want to understand the Pre-Tribulation interpretation then take some time to go thru these posts.

    I suggest opening another web page and going to the "Best of Paul2's Pre-Tribulation Rapture pages" and keeping this page open also so you can switch between them. Look up a post # and switch to that thread and read it and switch back to find another post # ect...

    Thats the same way I made this post with the numbers only in reverse order. It really doesn't take to long.

     Take a look at these posts :replies Read the first post which has no number and then #s 1-8, and #14, which are all on the first page, My computer crashed after post # 14 and I didn't get it fixed until # 46 on page 4. 2nd Timothy carried the study and debate from the end of the first page in my absence. Well worth the read by the way.

    Check out reply  #52, #58, both on page 4.

    Check out reply  #62, #66, #68, #69, all on page 5.

     #77, #79, on page 6. Post #79 deals with questions you have already asked. Other post do also but I forgot to keep track of them while I was making this list, Sorry. I remembered #79 and if you read the rest you'll find many more posts that deal with many issues, some you have raised.

    #96, #97,#98, #99, #100, #101, #102, #103, #104 all found on page 7

    #116, on page 8

    #121, on page 9, #147, #159, #162, on page 11

    #167, on page 12, #180, on page 13, #235 on page 16

    #240, #242, on page 17, #270, and then post #274 when I first began asking Petro to address the wrath of God on page 19.

   How much do you want to know? There a wealth of information on these posts listed above and many others that I've not listed. I stongly recommend you read the posts of 2nd Timothy and Black-eyed-Peas also.

   I don't know where you stand or what you believe but before casting your judgement of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture you really should read the posts to understand the interpretation. Hope this can be helpful to anyone interested.

                                                          Paul2

[AJ]

Thanks for the invitation Paul2...but im a Mid-Trib.. Pre Great-Trib kinda guy. The link i posted earlier in this tread is what i believe to be the first rapture. (ie) first fruits rapture. And of course the protection of the Woman in the Wilderness. Who i believe waits for the first resurrection.

God Bless

[Paul2]

Thanks for the invitation Paul2...but im a Mid-Trib.. Pre Great-Trib kinda guy. The link i posted earlier in this tread is what i believe to be the first rapture. (ie) first fruits rapture. And of course the protection of the Woman in the Wilderness. Who i believe waits for the first resurrection.

God Bless

     Thats a theory I'd like to debate.  

                                                          Paul2

[Petro]

    Petro, Petro, Petro,

    Are you trying to take over this thread to with your no theories rules? You truely never cease to amaze me. This is my thread Petro just as the "best of Paul2's Pre-Trib. Rapture" is my thread. There are 333 reply's on that thread and 30 on this one as of now. I know this must disturb you.

    You could start your own thread and make the rules and even lock the thread. You could ask me not to post on your thread and I wouldn't. I don't mind you debating on my threads but I do resent you trying to control me and my thread.

    The reason you are on my threads is because this is where the action is. You don't want to have your own thread because the people you want to reach are on my threads. You've made it your mission to attack the  Pre-Trib. Rapture, anyone who believes it and most importantly keeping us from being able to effectively teach our interpretation.

    I think another reason you don't start your own thread is because attacking the Pre-Trib. Rapture is what you do. If you were to start your own Pre-Wrath Rapture page it would be boring because you never present the Pre-Wrath interpretation. You don't even know how it works.

   I can explain how my theory and interpretation work but you don't like my methods, too bad. I've seen where your method of study has left you unable to address when the effects of the 7 vials of God's Wrath take place on the earth in relation to the Rapture, the Second Coming and Daniel's 70th week. I presented some facts using Scripture but you won't address them.

    You see us Pre-Tribbers as you call us as a threat and thats why your here.

    Stop trying to control me and my threads Petro. If you want to be in control then start your own threads. If you want to post on my threads don't try to control them.

    You have a theory Petro and not facts. Fact of the matter is you can't present your facts or your theory. You claim to search for truth and facts but never seem to search out the "facts"and truth in my 4 part explaination of why your "theory" doesn't work.

    Fair is fair in love and debate! You want to attack then learn how to defend!

                                                        Paul2
 
                                                               

paully,

Yolu took the liberty to put my name on this thread, so I guess this makes it my thread just as much as it is yours.

So,   I say you just have to live with it.....


Blessings,

Petro

[Petro]

Imagine that, someone post a thread using the word verses between names, and them wants the party he invites not to participate................hah, what a joke.

paul2 you do take the cake..............LOL

You kill me.....  I usually do not use smilies but this is called for herein...

Blessings to you,

Petro

[Petro]

To whoever:  Reading on my thread...........

Pretribulationists,  equate Matthew 24:9 with the fifth seal judgment as stated in Revelation 6:9–11.
This is exactly the understanding of pretribulationism.

Pre warth rapture supporters agree, tribulation occurs  in both the 1st half and the 2d half  of Daniels seventieth week, what is disputed is that not all the tribulation is Gods wrath.

Yet if the tribulation in Matthew 24:9 is "wrath of God"—then it would provide another item that contradicts the pre tribulation theory, and rejects a  principle scripture that helps understrand when this wrath of God begins
A cursory reading of a Greek concordance reveals that the word "tribulation" (thlipsis) is used in prophetic contexts to refer to both the first and second halves of the seventieth week of Daniel.
Matthew 24:9, which chronologically relates to the first half of the seventieth week as evidenced by its preceding the midpoint of the abomination of desolation (Matt. 24:15-21) states:
Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted [thlipsis *2347  Strong's Comparative Concordance, as tribuation], and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.[/color]
Clearly the biblical text describes the first half of the seventieth week as a time of tribulation.
Is this tribulation wrath of God??  According to pre tribbers it is, and this is where they make their left turn, which leads them to error.

The second half of the seventieth week is also described as a time of tribulation.
2 Th1:6 uses the Greek word thlipsis *2347 Strong's Comp. Concordance, as tribulation] while referring to the second coming of Christ which occurs during the second half of the seventieth week of Daniel, note;:
Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation [thlipsis] to them that trouble you;

 "Therefore, it is proper and even biblical to refer to, and even describe, the seventieth week of Daniel as "The Tribulation," or "A Time of Tribulation." (John McLean, "Chronology and Sequential Structure of John's Revelation" in Thomas Icxe Timothy Demy, eds., When The Trumpet Sounds (Harvest House Publishers, 1995), p. 341.) "

But notice that this tribulation is not of God and not, just upon the Jews, as pre tribbers would have one believe, this is  tribulation brought about by the wrath of the Satan, who is wroth with the woman; after being cast out of heaven;

Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.  Rev 12;12

Rev 12;  tells us;
17  And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

which is stated again at;

Rev 13
Rev 13:6  And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7  And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

So these afflictions (tribulations) brought about by Satan upon Gods people, occur before and after the mid point of Daniel's seventieth week, are to be recompensed by the LORD at His Second Coming.

When is this according to 1 Cor 15?

When He comes with all His Saints (1 Th 3:13), but  note carefully;

1 Cor 15
12  Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13  But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14  And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15  Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16  For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17  And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18  Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19  If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20  But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21  For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Here at this, verse 23 those that sleep in Christ shall be made alive at His coming, after the apostasy, the pre trib position rejects this out of hand, since they  place the second coming of Christ before  the begining of the Tribulation, even agree that His second coming is at the mid trib.....go figure??

I am not mid trib, but clearly, the mid trib position is closer to the truth of scripture than the pre trib.

 
Blessings,

Petro

[AJ]

I am not mid trib, but clearly, the mid trib position is closer to the truth of scripture than the pre trib.

Hi Petro Let me try to explain my Mid-Trib view Rev chapter 12 is where Michael i think Stands Up and fights Satan for trying to kill the man child of the woman... the man child is taken to heaven and the woman is led by angels or taken by angels to a place of safety. Some scripture on the man child.

Rev 2:26  And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27  And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Rev 12:5  And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne.

Isa 66:5  Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.
Isa 66:6  A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies.
Isa 66:7  Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
Isa 66:8  Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

Now some on the woman... their is all kinds of scripture in the old testament for this woman...we need to use the Bible to interpret the Bible as much as we can.

Exo 19:4  Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.

Rev 12:14  And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

This woman represents Jerusalem and her children.

God is going to talk to this woman face to face in the wilderness

Eze 20:34  And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.
Eze 20:35  And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.
Eze 20:36  Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord GOD.

The man child is raptured...caught up to God

The woman is the one i think Paul spoke of.. we who are ALIVE and remain... resurrection.

Praise the lord.. i hope we are part of this manchild or woman or we will likely have to overcome by the blood of the lamb..which is not so bad is it...

God bless

[Petro]

aj,

I dont' see, how you tie the mid tribulation rapture to what you have written, however;

Here is a verse that pretty well sets the Second Coming of Jesus to the earth, in concrete;

1 Cor 15
50  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51  Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Now, this cannot be speaking of the end of the millenial reign of Christ on the earth becuase, Paul includes himself himself, in verses 51 and 52, whehn he says ; "We shall not all sleep" and then follows it up by stating "we shall be changed"  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.

And above all else, it is understood His Saints will reign with HIM, and rule the nations..............

But note the last trumpet at verse 52, how do you reconcile the idea of a mid trib rapture to this passage, clearly this passage refers to the 7th Trumpet of Rev 11:14-19.

The return of Christ to the earth is the Thrid Woe for the nations and unbelievers.

Notice closely;

Mat 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1 Th 4
16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:[/b]
17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  

(at verse 16, what I emboldened is exactly the words used at the Greek English Interlinear, NT)

 The Prophet Joel at;

2:1  Blow the trumpet in Zion; sound the alarm on my holy hill. Let all who live in the land tremble, for the day of the LORD is coming. It is close at hand..................

The  trumpet of 1 Th 4:16  is the same trumpet of 1 Cor 15:52, and Joel 2, announcing the coming KING.

Consider Rev 11, above at verse;

16  And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshipped God, KJV
17 saying "We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, you have taken your great power and have begun to reign.ESB
18  And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.KJV


How about Isaiah's prophecies;

Isaiah 27
12 In that day the LORD will thresh from the river Euphrates to the Brook of Egypt, the Lord will thresh out the grain, and you will be gleaned one by one, O people of Israel.
13  And in that day a great trumpet will be blown, and those who were lost in the land of Assyria and those who were driven out of the land of Egypt will come and worship the Lord on the Holy Mountain at Jerusalem.  ESB


The nations were angry"............... is once more a reference to that messianic Psalm 2, therefore, his wrath has come, Isa 34:2.

"Walvoord]/b] points out that the same Greek word (Gr. verb form of orge) is used for angry and wrath, the wrath of men is wicked, the wrath of God is holy."

Zepheniah says concerning the wrath of God

Zep 14
14  The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
15  That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
16  A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.


There is many more verses I could post which prove the Day of the Lord, Day of Christ, the Second Coming of Christ are the same day, and it is the same day that He gathers those that sleep in Him from the four corners of heaven and those that remain on the earth, it beings with a shout from the Arch Angel and the sound of a Loud Trumpet.

And clearly it is not at the mid point of Daniels 70th week.




Blessings,

Petro



PS.


Jesus put this day in perstpective at Mat 24:37-38, just as Noah entered the Arch and God closed the door to the Arch, the rains that destroyed the earth, began, and it rained forty days and forty nights.

Verse 39, at Mat 24, defines that day as the one of 1 Th 5:4, 2 Th 1:10, 2 Th 2:3, according to what Jesus said, at Mat 24:29

Luke 17, .....................says;
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27  They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Remember Lot's wife.


Yes, I know this is hard to believe, (for some), that the creator of the heavens and the earth might be limited by time to accomplish what He has written to occur in one day,  but what can I say, it is written, that pretty well settles it, so far as I am concerned.

Why twist words to make it say other things..

Petro

[AJ]

Thats correct The man child is caught up to God at the mid point with no trumpet...the woman is protected here on earth for 3 1/2 years...she goes with the last trump, she will be the only one left ...as the man child is gone, and the rest of the saints are killed. Understand now?

Praise the lord Petro im still studying it.

God bless you  

[Paul2]

    Petro,

    Your absolutely right, I did use your name so in fact this thread does in fact belong to you also. It belongs to everyone really. I'm going back home to the Best of Paul2's Pre.Trib Rapture pages where I belong.

    Tom, 2nd Timothy and I want to continue our study of the Pre.Tribulation rapture interpretation. I've gotten sidetracked once again and it time to go back to studing and presenting my interpretation again.

    Although these debates often become heated battles We are all Christians. I admit I have poured my share of gasoline on the fire at times. People have made comments about the tone of these debates and their right. There is a tone that is not pleasing to many so I'm going to tone it down and go back to the purpose I'm at Christians Unite in the first place.

    I'm sorry that things got so heated between us and I call a truce of hostilities. I'm not saying I surrender but I am saying that argueing is getting us nowhere. I'll agree to disagree with you and allow you to write your posts and hope you'll allow me to write mine.

    Tom and 2nd Timothy enjoy my fellowship and writings and I enjoy theirs. We will go back to sharing our study and your welcome to be apart of the discussions and oppose our views but please just allow us to also continue on in our study.

    I end my hostilities toward you. Easter has put things in perspective for me, with the help of 2 good friends here.

    I won't be disrupting your posts here. I may add my comments but just to explain my perspective. The war is over as far as I'm concerned.

    Don't take offense of the fact I use smiles. I use smiles because I also use the angry face when I'm really mad. When you see me post the smile don't take offense, its not meant to be offensive, I smile alot

                                                            Paul2

[Petro]

Thats correct The man child is caught up to God at the mid point with no trumpet...the woman is protected here on earth for 3 1/2 years...she goes with the last trump, she will be the only one left ...as the man child is gone, and the rest of the saints are killed. Understand now?

Praise the lord Petro im still studying it.

God bless you  

aj,

No, actually you have confused me moreso,  

It seems as thou you are saying, the woman is the church, and so is the man child, He (He meaning; part of the church is raptured) and the rest of the church is left behind.

How do you connect the Woman being one and the same as the Man child??

Gal 4, says;
26  But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

This same heavenly Jerusalem is mentioned as the bride at;

Rev 21
2  And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

As I understahnd it,  the church is a great mystery, please note this scripture;

Eph 5
21  Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
22  Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23  For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24  Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25  Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26  That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27  That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28  So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29  For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30  For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31  For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32  This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

It is clear to me, that the union of the church and Christ have not occured at Rev 12.

So to consider them as one and same at the point of Rev 12, is not scriptural.

On the other hand if there is any truth, that wedding occurs after the rapture, and before His coming, then this might be considered as a viable conclusion.

If the rapture occurs at the shortening of the days of the great tribulation (this is Pre Wrath as opposed to Post Trib, since it occurs imediately before the end of the Great Trib, His return is imediately after the Tribulation of those days.) and the union to Christ is celebrated (no saints, who are members of his body, of his flesh and of His bones is left out),

This is the central point of debate, between Pre Tribulationist together with Mid  Tribulationists  and  the Pre Wrath Rapture position, they (pre and mid tribbers) are unable to include all who are members of the body of Christ, with the rapture and the wedding feast union to Christ in their theory.

It seems they selectively exclude, those who obviouly are members of the church, the body of Chrisr by placing the rapture before the signs and time appointed.

And all because rather then accepting what is written, just as it is written, they twist, stretch, and mis interpret words, written for their own edification.

As you can see go so far to interpret apostasy for rapture....

Is that deception or what??

Blessings,

Petro

[Petro]

Paul2,

That is fine with me, if you would rather isolate yourselves, to study together, then what else can be said;

It is clear to me, you are statisfied that you have the truth, and there is none other, it is a mystery to me, why you BEP, and 2d Tim, would want to study a theory you already agree with. Instead,  of answering questions which clearly disprove the theory at the verses you all use, to embrace, as  foundational to the establishing such a teaching.

But if that is what pleases you, why should I stand in your way.

Have at it.....

Blessings,

Petro