Paul2's Pre-Tribulation Rapture pages

[Hitch]

    Hitch,

    God can also STOP THE CLOCK which he did after  Palm Sunday 32 a.d. The 70th week has not begun yet just as Jerusalem has not entered into the 70th week yet.

    You'll know when the 70th week is complete because Jerusalem will be perfect, Sinless, Righteous forever. As long as buses are blown up in Jerusalem the 70th week has not been fulfilled.

    Yes, its that simple!                  

p.s. nice DODGE of an answer, I'm not fun to debate am I?

      The truth is tough to beat!                  Paul2

Yawn,,, Proved a NT Scripture defining and describing this 'clock'.


Then you will need to show why ,if you can place a gap between 69&70 why I cant place gaps  anywhere I want as well. But first  you're basing your claim here that God can 'stop the clock'  and you must support that from Scripture. Adn if I recall you like to ask for 'details'  So I'll do the same .Please provied the details  the Aposotle you will be quoting provided regarding this 'clock'.

But then if all that trash is true and Israel is the key,,, well honey  its been a long time since 1948, or 1967....

[Hitch]

Here we have two ressurrections. They cannot be the same ressurrection and certainly do not have to take place at the same time. The character of each is unique.

 No the character of the resurrection is the same. it is physical. The character of the judgements rendered is different

One concerns the righteous the other the evil. We know from later teaching that the good people receive glorified bodies but the evil are not raised incorruptable. Paul admits to order in ressurrection: Christ the firstfruits, then they that are His (what about the damned?)at His coming, then follows the end. So according to this verse the last day is before the very end. Remember Paul is showing us a mystery not previously known.
I could go on and on but I think I bored you enough.

asaph

Actually you have proven the point. You had no choice but to leave what Jesus actually said, and in the plainest of terms, and cite teachiings added decades later.

Can God add revelation to clarify a previous statement that Jesus made? First of all this implies that Christ was a poor speaker and teacher, unable or umwilling to teach his own followers what he really meant.  So  his basic honesty is called into account since he told the disciples that :


Matt 13:11
11   He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.(sometimes 'mystery' is just a figure of speech)
(KJV)

So that leads to another question. What should we add to the Lord's prayer? Or the Sermon on the Mount?

If nothing should be added then why do we consider these  complete? What standard are we to use to descide which of our Lord's own teachings was careless and incomplete,,needing editing two thousand years later?

Also we should question Jesus care and concern for those he was speaking to. If you or I were to make an important staement that prople would  very likely base and even pay their lives to uphold, and we had intentionally left out some important clause or definition, wouldny we be liable before God?

For your objection to have legs here you need to show why the original audience would  have reason to know 'last day'  should not be taken at face value, since  the text gives no basis for suc a claim. And you need to do so six times.

But what is really important here is that the explanation is being heard from our lord's own lips. Thats what he is doing in John six. Now the Book may not have been finally edited in Paul's time but I have no doubt any and all colleted quoted from Jesus  were reveared as what they were;The very Word of God. So  when Pauls reads what would become John six do you think he would be careful to conform or do you think he would correct Jesus ' errors?

Take care

Hitch

[Paul2]

    Hitch,

  Heres proof God stopped the clock between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel:

  1. Jerusalem hasn't Finished the transgression!
  2. Jerusalem hasn't Made an end to sins!
  3. Jerusalem hasn't Made reconciliation for iniquity!
  4. Jerusalem hasn't brought in everlasting righteousness!
  5. Jerusalem hasn't Sealed up the vision and prophecy!
  6. Jerusalem hasn't Anointed the most Holy!

   There you are Hitch, six good reasons that prove the 70th week have not been fulfilled.

[Hitch]

   Hitch,

  Heres proof God stopped the clock between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel:

  1. Jerusalem hasn't Finished the transgression!
  2. Jerusalem hasn't Made an end to sins!
  3. Jerusalem hasn't Made reconciliation for iniquity!
  4. Jerusalem hasn't brought in everlasting righteousness!
  5. Jerusalem hasn't Sealed up the vision and prophecy!
  6. Jerusalem hasn't Anointed the most Holy!

   There you are Hitch, six good reasons that prove the 70th week have not been fulfilled.

Yawn,,,,  Find some Apostolic support for your gap. Any NT author will suffice. In the mean I will quote Jesus Christ 'the time is fulfilled'.

Then you neeed to produce some standard  so you can stop me from placing gaps whereever I choose. In the mean I'l accept your 'proof' as soon as you get a Apostle to confirm it.

Pardon me if I dont hold my breath waiting.

Take care

Paul

[Reba]

When did Jerusalem :

1. Finish the transgression?
2. Make an end of sins?
3. Make reconciliation for iniquity?
4. Bring in everlasting righteousness?
5. Seal up the vision and prophecy?
6. Anoint the most Holy?

When they crucified CHRIST.

[musicllover]

   Hitch,

  Heres proof God stopped the clock between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel:

  1. Jerusalem hasn't Finished the transgression!
  2. Jerusalem hasn't Made an end to sins!
  3. Jerusalem hasn't Made reconciliation for iniquity!
  4. Jerusalem hasn't brought in everlasting righteousness!
  5. Jerusalem hasn't Sealed up the vision and prophecy!
  6. Jerusalem hasn't Anointed the most Holy!

   There you are Hitch, six good reasons that prove the 70th week have not been fulfilled.

Yawn,,,,  Find some Apostolic support for your gap. Any NT author will suffice. In the mean I will quote Jesus Christ 'the time is fulfilled'.

Then you neeed to produce some standard  so you can stop me from placing gaps whereever I choose. In the mean I'l accept your 'proof' as soon as you get a Apostle to confirm it.

Pardon me if I dont hold my breath waiting.

Take care

Paul

Hitch,
       Here is a box of kleenex's....
for your snotty adittude. Take a break and come back and play nice, your are aboslutely right no breath holding is allowed, makes you turn a terrible shade of blue, and your lips turn a nasty purple,oooo yek, if you can acctually hold it long enough your eyes will bug out and you look like a smurf thats been run over by an 18 wheeler.

Interesting that my asking for Scriptures disturbs you .

Hitch,
      I'm over joyed that you find me interesting.  .....What I find more disturbing is that some think there is no more sin in this world (#2)!!!! What world are you living in anyway? I live with the affect of sin in my life every day. I sin when I don't want to sin. This is a fallen world and sin will be here until Christ removes us.
  And then on  Point #3 seal up visions and Prophecy.
  Are you saying that all prophecy has been fullfill? I know some believe this, I don't. I think that the gifts of the Spirit are still with us, but we the church has gotten so far off from what the Lord intended that the gifts are abused and neglected. Nothing is sealed up and till the church is removed. The restrainer is the church. I believe The Holy Spirit will be gone with the removal of the church,  Christ promised to send any who believed in him,his comforter. With the church/Holy Spirit gone this world is in big trouble. HOW can you say there is no sin.
     THe great Apostasy spoken about in 2Thes 2   Now brethren concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ...........3)that day will not come unless the falling away comes first and the man of sin is revealed the son of perdition. Who oppeses and exalts himself about all thai is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God .......6) And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7) For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, only He who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed...........
     I guess I don't understand where you coming from.
     Do you believe in a rapture at some point?
     Do you believe in the 7yrs of trubluations?
     Do you believe in the end time tribulations or have they come and gone?
   Have a Kinder spirit with what you write. I am sincere Hitch. What you have to say may need to be said. (I don't agree with your teaching so far, but I don't deny anyone the right to teach it, unless it is blaintly against scripture) SO teach and let people read it, we aren't stupid, maybe not all high IQ'd but we all have one purpose in mind here. To teach and to learn. Being high minded honestly turns people away. Keep a teachable spirit Hitch.

CORRECTION......sorry Hitch, it wasn't your answer that I was posting too, my mistake. So you've been redeemed for a moments But other than my mistaken you as having given this answer. Jesus did, I am curious about how you believe on the rapture teachings.
 

[Reba]

1. Jerusalem hasn't Finished the transgression?

Mat 26:3,4  Then assembled together the chief priests, and the scribes, and the elders of the people, unto the palace of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas,
 And consulted that they might take Jesus by subtilty, and kill him.

2. Jerusalem hasn't Made an end to sins?


Rom 6:6,7  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Rom 8:1,2  There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Heb 10:17-20  And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;




3. Jerusalem hasn't Made reconciliation for iniquity?

Heb 10:16-18  This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more  offering for sin.

2Co 5:18  And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation  


4. Jerusalem hasn't brought in everlasting righteousness?

3:20-24  Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:


5. Jerusalem hasn't Sealed up the vision and prophecy?

Joh 19:28-30  After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst. Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth. When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.


6. Jerusalem hasn't Anointed the most Holy?

Joh 12:13  Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna ; Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Heb 4:14,15  Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

[musicllover]

" If you find one poor enough to be interested in your opinions hold tighly"
 
We are known by our fruits. And there for whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them for this is the law and the prophets. (Matt 7:12)  

 IF I find one poor enough?....I feel very rich thank you, not that there aren't moments that hurting someone real bad hasn't crossed my mind...like my husband, goin on 30 yrs, my church, that a little over 110 yr old, Many bible scholar, and teachers,way back to the 16th century I believe. I must be REAL good at holdin on to them since they have died and turned to dust..... Your tryin to prove your opinions here since Paul 2 began the thread.  

"WRT the rapture, I believe every thing Jesus said about it"
 Man so glad to hear that, so what is the debate about??? But I'm still concerned.Your taken all the fun out of the debate if you do it that way Hitch. What did Jesus say about the rapture? Nuttin???     buzzer....... Matt chapter 24, (which is a prophecy from the OT),  Jesus warns us about false messiahs....which really become a prob during the time of Tribulations, Matt 24:27 (also prophcy from Dan, and Ezek) Jesus speaks of his second coming.Matt 25:32...Parable of the fig tree, ...this generation will not pass away till all these things are fulfilled.....verse 36)no one know the hour or the day not even the angels in Heaven. Chapter 25 the ten virgins. Jesus is teaching us to be prepared. Then Jesus ends that chapt with the judgement. And one of my favorite verses is found in John  Chapt 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and recieve you to MYSELF. John 14:18, I will not leave you orphans, I will come to you......John 14; 28 You have herad me say to  I am going away and coming back to you, John 17:12 Jesus speaks very quickly about the son of perdition. That is a reference to the end times and tribulations.  Jesus was a teacher  , so you have  Daniel, Ezk, Isa,  any of the prophecy books written then. SO what do you think Jesus says about the gathering together in the sky.....or the rapture? Cause I think he is teaching us to watch ourselves and be ready to meet him in the air. NO hot air balloons, no planes, no big bounce on the trapoline. He brings us to meet him in the sky. SO cool, I would love to meet you on your way up. Look for me, I'll be one of those that I'm there and then I'm not, twinkle of an eye right.
blessing to all who believe

[musicllover]

 After my previous posting I realized that it might be good to add some of what the scriptures teach CHristians about the end times, will Christians go thru the tribulations? Of coarse it depends on your views to begin with. pre trib, mid trib, post trib. We each have a slant in how we read the scriptures from teaching of our youth, teaching now, diff thinks we've heard over the years. And sometimes it much easier to think NO, who want to suffer right.  But there are some reason that a pre trib rapture/tribulations agrees with the scriptures.
    We are promised There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus Rom 8:1
      what is condemnation...(websters dic)....The act of condemning. The state of being condemned. Severe reproof; strong censure. A reason or occasion for condemning.  
       1 John 1:9   If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
          The church as a whole is cleansed by the blood of Jesus. Or he'd had to have died millions of times, one act and it was all done. We Christians need to ask forgiveness each day. We aren't made right thru suffering, (tribulations) we are made right thru the one act of Jesus Christ, our daily asking and recieveing of forgiveness. Even the daily tribulatios we each suffer thru, won't match the time of tribulations when the church is removed, the restrainer is gone. Suffering will get much much worse.
     The Church in 2 Thes. were suffering lots of persecutions, and they wanted to know how much longer would they have to suffer thru, or was this the tribulations he'd taught about them earlier. Paul teaches them  2 Thes 2:1-3 Not to be soon shaken in mind or trouble, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as through the day of Christ had come. that day will not come unless the falling away comes frist and the son of man is revealed, the son of perdition. (Jesus also mentions the son of perdition John 17:12)
       what is perdition  
n : (Christianity) the abode of Satan and the forces of evil; where sinners suffer eternal punishment: "Hurl'd headlong...To bottomless perdition, there to dwell"- John Milton; "a demon from the depths of the pit" [syn: Hell, Inferno, infernal region, nether region, the pit] [ant: Heaven]

Some transilation might use the man of sin, the antichrist.
Pual  reminds the people of the church what he taught when he was with them. 2 Thes 2;5  Do you not remember that when I was still with you.
V)6 And now you know what is trstraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7) For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. AND THEN the lawless one will be revealed.

Another reason to believe in the pre trib rapure  can be found in Rev 4:4   Around the throne were 24 elders and on the thrones I say 24 sitting, clothed in white and they had crowns of gold on their heads.
crowns are a symbol of the church found in Eph 2:6 ...made us to sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus
Rev 19:8 ...and to her (the chruch) it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen clean and bright.
2 Tim 4:8 Finally there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge will give to me on that day and to all who have loved his appearing.
 
Does this answer when we will recieve our crowns, before during or after......  I believe the church (24 elders represent the church) is seen by Paul  before Tribulations has begun. Paul is describes Rev 4-9 teh church in Heaven robed and crowned Raptured

God isn't a God of vengance to those who love him, (his church)  the time of tribulations is Gods wrath poured out on those who have refused, denied and blasphmeded his name. Pauls in 2Thes 1:7,8 explains.... you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed, but taking vengeance on those who do no know God and those who do not obey the gospel.
   And similiar experience can be seen in the old testament when God saved Lot from the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, because he was a righteous man. ONE single righteous person......what about a whole church?
Gen. 19:17, and 19
For I cannot do anything until you arrive there.......lots has to be out of the way for God to send his judgement.

These are some very important issues that need to be prayed about, seek the Lord and find peace in our heart and mind. God doesn't want anyone to persish, no not one......
blessings  

[Reba]

musicllover,
a bit of a quote of your post...

John 17:12 Jesus speaks very quickly about the son of perdition. That is a reference to the end times and tribulations.

John 17:12  While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.


Is this not a reference to Judas? How can this be future when Jesus says 'fulfilled'

The 'Strongs' definition of the word fulfilled is..
G4137
πληρόω
plēroō
play-ro'-o
From G4134; to make replete, that is, (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.: - accomplish, X after, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply.

[Paul2]

  Hitch,

    I just got back from vacation and see that some pages have disappeared. I was able to read your responce as I was walking out the door for vacation Saturday morning. I know you responded to my question and I thank you for taking the time and effort. I'd say by your responce, which was detailed that the simple answer was "yes" , you believe the 70th week of Daniel is complete and was completed after the 69th week was ended.

    Heres where the next logical step in the debate takes us.

     "The Time Gap theories!" I had thought we were getting ahead of ourselves with the time gap theories before we had established our respective positions because I was focusing on Jerusalem in relation to Dan. 9:24. Now that weve settled where we stand we can proceed to deal with time gaps.

     First allow me to present the need for time gaps for both our views as I see them necessary for both views and I'll explain why.

     The 69th week ended April 6th 32a.d. which was Palm Sunday. I consider this to be fact because of the starting date of the seventy weeks prophecy :March 14, 445b.c. which is recorded in secular history books.

    We can debate the above starting date later but allow me to continue to complete the scenario.

     Without any time gap between the 69th and 70th week the following should have occured. The 70th week begins with a covenant between "many" which further study reveals to be 10 nations. Without any time gap whatsoever, this event should have occured Monday April 7th 32a.d. while Jesus was still alive during the week leading up to the crucifixion. History records no such covenant. The middle of the 70th week would have been around September 35a.d. when the prophecized "Abomination that causes Desolation"  would have occured without a time gap but history records no such event. The end of the 70th week would have been completed around April 39 a.d. History does not support this view.

     Time gap theories:

    First time gap theory I'll address is a time gap to 63a.d. as the start of the 70th week and ending 70a.d. with the destruction of the temple. There are many variations to the dates but most tie the temple destruction by the Romans into the 70th week either as mid week or the end of the week.

    Problem is that by trying to fit the destruction of the temple in 70a.d. into the 70 weeks prophecy all other events in the prophecy can not be taken literally. A literal reading of Daniel 9:24 would lead the reader to assume Jerusalem would be transformed and no longer be a city with murders,sin, prophetic future events, but a city perfected by God and in total compliance with his will. This is obviously not the case now. Its not just Daniel 9:24 to consider but Revelation 13 and many other prophecies that give details into the final 70th week of Daniel.

    The 70th week of Daniel is in the future is the time gap theory that best fits all other prophetic Scriptures.

    The future starting of the 70th week begins with the signing of a 7 year covenant between Israel and 10 nations represented by a man known by many names and titles such as The man of Sin, Antichrist, The Lawless One, The Beast, 666, The beast out of the sea, The Little Horn, and many others. This man will lead Israel into a false peace which He will break midweek by going to a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem, receive a fatal wound that is "healed" and claim himself to be God. I'll call him Antichrist for the sake of a name, Antichrist will stop the renewed daily sacrifice and kill the two witnesses of Revelation 11 at the mid week to "prove" he is God. No man could stop the testimony of the 2 witnesses which lasted for 1260 days, from the signing of the covenant (which begins the 70th week) to the mid week when Antichrist begins his 42 month reign (see Rev. 13). At the end of the 70th week Jesus Christ returns to earth to establish His millenial Kingdom and destroys the Antichrist, and purifies Jerusalem who finally will accept Him as the true Messiah after being deceived by Antichrist.

    When the 70th week is placed as a future event all other prophecies can be fulfilled literally. When The 70th week is placed in the past many, many, many prophecies must be taken symbolicly, like the mark of the beast, which history does not mention. I take the Bible literally unless it is clear something is symbolic. The mark of the beast is literal, Rev.20 makes it clear that those who refused to accept the mark were beheaded and were to be resurrected.

     Bottom line Hitch is we think differently, it doesn't mean I'm stupid and your smart. There are perfectly good reasons I have the views I have. I examine the Bible as a detective searching out a mystery. The answers are all there but it requires work and study to uncover many deeply hidden truths that the Apostle Paul told us to search out. Paul clearly stated that there are mysteries to be solved. Things hidden from all but the Holy Spirit guided seekers of truth.

    I was never one to accept knowing part of things, I want to know as much as permitted. Some things are off limits, such as what the seven thunders in Rev. spoke that John was not allowed to write. I never try to solve a mystery that is clearly not knowable but as far as Revelation is concerned, John was told Not to seal the Book, theres a blessing for those who study the Book, so I seek to understand.  

    I never call you stupid, I disagree with you, but I don't consider you to be an stupid, unlearned man. Somebody mentioned I.Q._s in a post responding to these discussions. I took several different I.Q. tests to see if I was stupid or not. I got 138 on three different tests and a 135 on another. I'm not as stupid as many think I am just because I disagree with them. I don't just look at verses of scripture in a singular context but I analize them against all Scriptures that deal with the subject. Everything should fit together in harmony, not conflict. I have found harmony with Pre-Trib Rapture and a future 70th week of Daniel. I have found nothing but conflicts with all other theories. I'm not stupid or brainwashed, I'm convinced by the evidence in the Bible.

    I could be arrogant and add that the Holy Spirit has also lead me to this conclusion but I won't because to assume that I've been led by the Spirit to all my conclusions would somehow infer that everybody else who disagrees with me was not being led or indwelled by the Spirit. I don't know why Holy Spirit indwelt believers differ on biblical views as much as we do, but I don't question that a believer is indwelt by the Holy Spirit because we disagree. Perhaps the answer is teachability. I try to keep a teachable Spirit and allow the Holy Spirit to reveal things to me, in fact I often ask that my eyes be opened to a truth I have not noticed before. More often than not I discover something awesome I never saw in that light before.

      I start off showing respect and I respond with respect when I'm shown respect. When I'm attacked I go on the offensive, when I'm mocked I ... well you know, I throw in my strange humor but I'm never trying to be cruel, so don't assume I'm trying to be mean, rude or whatever else you may think, I'm trying to add humor into what often can become heated debate. I don't call people names. I might say:

(in the voice of Foghorn Leghorn) "The boys to short... all the good ones go over his head!"  But its my way of saying: I don't agree and don't understand why you don't see it the way I do. These debates can get really boring without some humor added to the argueing. I don't seriously try to insult anyone but it seems many take their "serious" shots at me.

                                                               Paul2

[Paul2]

    Hitch,

    Take a look at these verses:

Romans 11:25  "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
   26: And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
   27: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
   28: As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
 
     At the time of the APOSTLE PAUL'S ministry Israel is still blinded in part UNTIL the FULLNESS OF THE GENTILES BE COME IN

      At the time of Paul, God hadn't finished with Israel. Israel
 hadn't accepted the Lord and their sins remained. As long as the Church is on earth, Israel will remain blinded in part until the fulness (completed Church) of the Gentiles be come in.

     What exactly is Paul saying in the verses above to you?

    Its late and I don't have time to go further tonight but think over these verses above and we'll continue.

    By the way, knock off the I'm smarter than stupid you tone. Let the rest of those reading these posts be the judge of who's smart or dumb. By your standard the temple is still standing in Jerusalem, which is now righteous forever, but somehow I think God has a higher standard of righteousness than Jerusalem has now obtained.

    One more thing, see the word MYSTERY in the verse below?

    Well Paul is telling us that there is a new revealed truth to learn. He doesn't want us to be IGNORANT of the mystery. Why? So we don't act wise in our own conceits. Whats the Mystery? God is not finished with Israel yet, first the Church must be completed. All the Gentiles chosen to be part of the Church must be "IN" the Church, thereby completing the Church. The Church makes Israel Jeolous, but why? Because its completed and Raptured is the answer. Then and only then will Israel's blindness in part be removed.

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.

   Seems the APOSTLE PAUL is telling us something important that we must learn. Question is are we teachable, well are we?

                                                              Paul2

[musicllover]

musicllover,
a bit of a quote of your post...

John 17:12 Jesus speaks very quickly about the son of perdition. That is a reference to the end times and tribulations.

John 17:12  While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.


Is this not a reference to Judas? How can this be future when Jesus says 'fulfilled'

The 'Strongs' definition of the word fulfilled is..
G4137
πληρόω
plēroō
play-ro'-o
From G4134; to make replete, that is, (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.: - accomplish, X after, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply.

Reba,
      sorry for the delay, not sure what the deal is, I tried to post and my machine would just sit there.
Yes you are right that the scripture in John 17:12 referrs to the judas, the traitor. I thought it was interesting that Jesus uses those words when that is what the anti Christ is called as well. Where is the scripture thats says it would have been better if Judas had never been born.......the parallell between Judas and the anti christ is very real. It gets into the predestinanation teaching, its so hard to think that God created someone just to have them do something that would send them to hell. Sorry I should have explain what I meant. Just useage of the term "son of perdition".....and that being what the anit christ is call in some transalations.   Good job keeping me honest. thank you

[musicllover]

......quoted........ I start off showing respect and I respond with respect when I'm shown respect. When I'm attacked I go on the offensive, when I'm mocked I ... well you know, I throw in my strange humor but I'm never trying to be cruel, so don't assume I'm trying to be mean, rude or whatever else you may think, I'm trying to add humor into what often can become heated debate. I don't call people names. I might say:

(in the voice of Foghorn Leghorn) "The boys to short... all the good ones go over his head!"  But its my way of saying: I don't agree and don't understand why you don't see it the way I do. These debates can get really boring without some humor added to the argueing. I don't seriously try to insult anyone but it seems many take their "serious" shots at me. ....end quote.

I have to agree with you again, maybe both my oars aren't in the water at the same time always, a little humor never hurt nobody. In the voice of the little chicken hawk, pusing up the feathers on his arms......let me at em! let me at em!......

[Reba]

Musicllover,

Thanks for the reply  

It gets into the predestinanation teaching, its so hard to think that God created someone just to have them do something that would send them to hell.

I have no problem at all with knowing GOD is sovereign. He is the potter  i am clay. HE raised up Pharaoh to his end. But  that topic would be another thread