SORRY ! No Rapture Today....or, Next Week...

[DareDevil]

as the translation of living saints is imminent.

The believer's JUDGMENT is differewnt from the wicked's judgment as there is NO CONDEMNATION to those who are in Christ. (Romans 8:1,2  et al)

Yes, this is true.
 However....how many people who attend Sunday worship services follow Christ ?
Christ set up the 7th day Sabbath, as a sign, as to his true followers are, (Ezekiel 20:12,20).
There is ..no condemnation...to those who obey what he said to do.
"IF...you love me...keep 'my' commandments", (John 14:15).

Jesus also warns people:  "BUT IN VAIN...do they worship me, teaching for doctrine the commandments of men", (Matthew 15:3,9).

Since there is no command from God, anywher,e in all the Bible, about replacing Sunday for God's Holy Sabbath day.....

[2nd Timothy]

Maybe tomorrow!!!!!!!!!  

The Crusader

IF...you believe the Bible.
It says other things must happen first.

The "Mark of the Beast" scenerio comes 'before' anyone is taken to heaven.
 (Understand Revelation 20:4,5).

Maybe you missed Revelation 12:12 DD.

Rev 12:12  Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Dwellers in heaven rejoicing, before the great white throne judgment.

Grace and Peace!

[2nd Timothy]

as the translation of living saints is imminent.

The believer's JUDGMENT is differewnt from the wicked's judgment as there is NO CONDEMNATION to those who are in Christ. (Romans 8:1,2  et al)

Yes, this is true.
 However....how many people who attend Sunday worship services follow Christ ?
Christ set up the 7th day Sabbath, as a sign, as to his true followers are, (Ezekiel 20:12,20).
There is ..no condemnation...to those who obey what he said to do.
"IF...you love me...keep 'my' commandments", (John 14:15).

Jesus also warns people:  "BUT IN VAIN...do they worship me, teaching for doctrine the commandments of men", (Matthew 15:3,9).

Since there is no command from God, anywher,e in all the Bible, about replacing Sunday for God's Holy Sabbath day.....

This is starting to look like another thread on the board.  I wont go into this, but I will simply ask, do you believe observing the law brings one to salvation?  I ask because maybe I misunderstood you.

Grace and Peace!

[DareDevil]

This is starting to look like another thread on the board.  I wont go into this, but I will simply ask, do you believe observing the law brings one to salvation?  I ask because maybe I misunderstood you.

Grace and Peace!

The true Christian understands that we keep all 10 commandments...because we love Jesus Christ.
"IF...you love me...keep my commandments", (John 14:15).

The person who is not truely converted ..will reject at least one of God's commandments, (Romans 8:7).
And usually, it is the 4th commandment (Exodus 20:8-11), they reject, because it identifies who the creator is.


The true Christian understands that God set up the 7th day Sabbath as 'the sign' between God and a person who truely follows Jesus Christ.

[Dale]

  2nd Timothy:
  On the Many Mansions passage:
<< You are correct.  Verse 2 is partly a description of heaven given by the Lord.  You have only addressed a small part of verse 2 however.  We must also understand the second part of verse 2, and verse 3.  How do you interpret these?
 >>

  The Gospel of John does not connect the Many Mansions passage with the End Times, with Tribulation, with persecution, Judgment, or Second Coming. It is simply a description of Christ receiving believers into Heaven. It gives us no clue as to when this will happen.

  As I said in my previous post:
<<  Jesus is apocalyptic in Matthew 24 and Luke 21.
  "[Jesus says]Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved." Matthew 24: 12-3 NIV This is a distinct anti-Rapture teaching.
  For those who believe in a Rapture, the purpose of the event is to spare Christians being persecuted under the anti-Christ. Yet Jesus plainly says, "But before all this, they will lay hands on you and persecute you." Luke 21:12 NIV >>

  How do you deal with the fact that Jesus Christ has decisively ruled out the possibility that any pre-Tribulation Rapture scenario can be true?

  Grace and peace to all Christians as they grapple with this issue!

[DareDevil]

 

  The Gospel of John does not connect the Many Mansions passage with the End Times, with Tribulation, with persecution, Judgment, or Second Coming. It is simply a description of Christ receiving believers into Heaven. It gives us no clue as to when this will happen.

@ Thessalonians 2:1-3.....tells us that the anti-christ will be revealed before Christ gathers his people, when he comes again.

  As I said in my previous post:
<<  Jesus is apocalyptic in Matthew 24 and Luke 21.
  "[Jesus says]Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved." Matthew 24: 12-3 NIV This is a distinct anti-Rapture teaching.
 
 

How do you deal with the fact that Jesus Christ has decisively ruled out the possibility that any pre-Tribulation Rapture scenario can be true?

Because Revelation 20:4,5 ...says that the people who would not worship the Beast or receive it's mark were beheaded...and they came up in the first resurrection.

 

[2nd Timothy]

The Gospel of John does not connect the Many Mansions passage with the End Times, with Tribulation, with persecution, Judgment, or Second Coming. It is simply a description of Christ receiving believers into Heaven. It gives us no clue as to when this will happen.

I agree.  There is no clue as to when it will happen going by this passage.  Only that we will be taken into heaven.  The end of Revelation reveals a different scenario of Christ reigning on earth after his return.   There is simply no way to reconcile the above verse with....

Rev 19:11  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12  His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13  And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14  And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Here we see an army with Christ wearing white fine linen.  Fine linen is usually reserved for believers in christ.

And later,

Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Two groups of people here.  Those sitting on thrones (plural) and those who were beheaded.  

Do you see the problem with this in regards to mansions passage?   The mansions passage agrees fully with the above scripture, because sainst are seen returning with him to earth, whereas, if we are not changed until the end, Jesus is involved in a useless construction project in heaven that the none of us ever see.   The Bride is collected before judgment.  Others will be converted during the tribulation, and ressurected at the end, thus explaining to the two distinct groups in Rev 20:4   Scirpture interpreting scripture yet again.

As I said in my previous post:
<<  Jesus is apocalyptic in Matthew 24 and Luke 21.
  "[Jesus says]Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved." Matthew 24: 12-3 NIV This is a distinct anti-Rapture teaching.

If you read all of Matthew 24 carefully, you will see that there are 3 questions asked of Jesus.   Jesus explains when the temple will be destroyed, (happend aprox. 65 years later), what the sign of his coming would be, and what would be the sign of the end of the age.   Right after he speaks of them being persecuted, and enduring till the end, he says the Gospel would be preached in all the world, and THEN the end would come.   This part didn't happen until probably this last century.  The desciples were persecuted, and suffered terrible deaths.    Also important to note that the mystery of the church had not yet been revealed.   Jesus would not have spoken clearly about when he was coming to receive his bride, when the desciples did not understand that until sometime during the events described in the book of Acts.   I don't see much referense to pro of con rapture in Matt 24.  Just the destruction of temple, the sings of his return, and the end of the age

 For those who believe in a Rapture, the purpose of the event is to spare Christians being persecuted under the anti-Christ. Yet Jesus plainly says, "But before all this, they will lay hands on you and persecute you." Luke 21:12 NIV

While no one in there right mind wants to face persecution, we as christians are told to expect that, and in fact do.  The desciples faced death because of their witness.  Numerous Christians around the world (not so much in America) face similar trials and persecution.  To directly address the verse in Luke 21, notice he says "before this".  Before what?


Luk 21:10  Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
Luk 21:11  And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
Luk 21:12  But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you[......]

Again, it seems as though he is speaking directly to those who were listening to him, as kingdom rising against kingdoms, earthquakes in various places were all to take place during the end age.

Scolling down to verse 35,

Luk 21:35  For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
Luk 21:36  Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

These things will come upon ALL them that dwell on the earth, but Jesus commands us to watch, and pray that we may be accounted worthy to ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS.

Note the word DWELL.  Those who dwell on the earth.

Rev 12:12  Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Do a word search in Revelation and notice how the word DWELL is used of those who dwell on the earth, and those who dwell in heaven.   A clear distinction threaded throughout Revelation.

How do you deal with the fact that Jesus Christ has decisively ruled out the possibility that any pre-Tribulation Rapture scenario can be true?

I think I have clearly shown in the very verse you provide how this is not the case.  Jesus will retrieve his bride before dealing with the unjust.   He has not appointed us to his wrath.  We are his children.  Yes we face worldy persecution and all sorts of trials to strengthen our faith, but being his children, we are not condemned to face his judgment.  He took Gods wrath and Judgment for us already at calvary.  Those who accept that gift, are the apple of his eye, and are not in need of facing his wrath and anger yet a second time, because our debt was paid in FULL.   However, those who reject this gift, will face a very angry, just, and righteous God.  

Rev 6:17  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

May God grant us power and insight through his holy spirit to help others come to a saving knowledge of Gods merciful grace and forgiveness.

Grace and Peace!

[2nd Timothy]

Hi DareDevil,

@ Thessalonians 2:1-3.....tells us that the anti-christ will be revealed before Christ gathers his people, when he comes again.

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

It is an important observation that thessalonians are shaken, and troubled by a letter they had received a letter as if it were sent by the Apostles that the Day of the Lord had come.   Why would they be shaken by this if they thought it was upon them and they were about to be gathered to Christ?   Paul says in verse 1 "about the coming of the Lord, AND the gathering of ourselves unto him.  2 themes.  Verse 2 says the day of the lord, and verse 3 says that day cannot come until the Antichrist is revealed.   They were shaken because they feared they had missed the gathering up to Christ, and were about to enter the day of the Lord as reported by the false letter.

Grace and Peace!

[2nd Timothy]

The true Christian understands that we keep all 10 commandments...because we love Jesus Christ.
"IF...you love me...keep my commandments", (John 14:15).

The person who is not truely converted ..will reject at least one of God's commandments, (Romans 8:7).
And usually, it is the 4th commandment (Exodus 20:8-11), they reject, because it identifies who the creator is.


The true Christian understands that God set up the 7th day Sabbath as 'the sign' between God and a person who truely follows Jesus Christ.

In order not the throw off the current topic in this thread, I will simply direct you to the Apologetics/can we be saved by works thread.

I will say that there is absolutely nothing we can to earn our salvation.  Yes we love his commands, but there has never been one who has kept them all, except christ.  

If you want to discuss this topic, the previous thread I mentioned is extremely active.  I would prefer to keep this thread focused on the origianl topic of the rapture.  

Grace and Peace!

[twobombs]

Without disturbing anyone's peace I would like to add fuel to the thread by stating that there will be in the end time a group of religious people that will look as though they are ok, yet they are in fact the pharisees & saddusees of this day & age completely missing the time in wich they are living.  Please notice:

Mat 16:2   He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, [It will be] fair weather: for the sky is red.
Mat 16:3   And in the morning, [It will be] foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O [ye] hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not [discern] the signs of the times?
Mat 16:4   A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

Notice: "A wicked and adulterous generation"  & "the sign of the prophet Jonas". He is referring to His ressurection, but can the sign be repeated ? Again giving todays "wicked and adulterous generation", "the sign of the prophet Jonas."

I think the only answer to that question can be "yes, it will happen". This will happen again and the sign of the prophet Jonas this time fullfilled as the rapture of the saints. Giving todays wicked and adulterous generation the sign of the prophet Jonas of 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of the fish. Let's look up the book of Jonah and see if there is a hint to this:

Jon 1:4   But the LORD sent out a great wind into the sea, and there was a mighty tempest in the sea, so that the ship was like to be broken.
Jon 1:7   And they said every one to his fellow, Come, and let us cast lots, that we may know for whose cause this evil [is] upon us. So they cast lots, and the lot fell upon Jonah.
Jon 1:17   Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.

And later on it goes:
Jon 3:6   For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered [him] with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.

Ater 3 days and 3 nights Jonah is back on dry (solid!) land, he preaches the message that brings even kings unto repentance.

When you are a mid-trib believer you take Rev 12:6 at point-blank :

Rev 12:6   And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days.

By now you must have noticed: 1230 = 3 years = 3 days & 3 nights (!)

Any more ideas on this ?

[Brother Love]

"Maranatha"


<))><

[2nd Timothy]

Without disturbing anyone's peace I would like to add fuel to the thread by stating that there will be in the end time a group of religious people that will look as though they are ok, yet they are in fact the pharisees & saddusees of this day & age completely missing the time in wich they are living.  Please notice:

Mat 16:2   He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, [It will be] fair weather: for the sky is red.
Mat 16:3   And in the morning, [It will be] foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O [ye] hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not [discern] the signs of the times?
Mat 16:4   A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

Notice: "A wicked and adulterous generation"  & "the sign of the prophet Jonas". He is referring to His ressurection, but can the sign be repeated ? Again giving todays "wicked and adulterous generation", "the sign of the prophet Jonas."

I think the only answer to that question can be "yes, it will happen". This will happen again and the sign of the prophet Jonas this time fullfilled as the rapture of the saints. Giving todays wicked and adulterous generation the sign of the prophet Jonas of 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of the fish. Let's look up the book of Jonah and see if there is a hint to this:

Jon 1:4   But the LORD sent out a great wind into the sea, and there was a mighty tempest in the sea, so that the ship was like to be broken.
Jon 1:7   And they said every one to his fellow, Come, and let us cast lots, that we may know for whose cause this evil [is] upon us. So they cast lots, and the lot fell upon Jonah.
Jon 1:17   Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.

And later on it goes:
Jon 3:6   For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered [him] with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.

Ater 3 days and 3 nights Jonah is back on dry (solid!) land, he preaches the message that brings even kings unto repentance.

When you are a mid-trib believer you take Rev 12:6 at point-blank :

Rev 12:6   And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days.

By now you must have noticed: 1230 = 3 years = 3 days & 3 nights (!)

Any more ideas on this ?

I know you have a point here Twobombs, but I must be missing it completely.   I'm lost when you start talking about Rev 12:6.   Not sure what you mean there.  Also, doesn't the Jewish calender run on 360 day years?

Maybe I need to re-read it again when I'm not so tired.....(long nights work)

Grace and Peace!

[twobombs]

2nd Timothy: You are correct, 3.5 years. Maybe it's half a day walk from the shores to the city of Nineve. That why it was an idea; a concept  Thanks for the time for the feedback.

[Evangelist]

Maybe it's half a day walk from the shores to the city of Nineve

Nineveh was where the current Iraqui city of Mosul is...and it's about 500 miles from the Med!

Took Jonah a little while to make the trip.