The Rapture:"Arose by any other name"

[twobombs]

Twobombs,

[....]

I cannot find a way to apply the phrase "neither the day nor the hour" to this situation. The only way for these two viewpoints to be true is to separate the two distinct events transpiring here.
1. The rapture of the Church at an unknown time.
and
2. The return of Jesus to the earth at the mount of Olives at the end of the period.

I still agree that God can and will do as he pleases, but with Daniel and Revelation one can clearly mark 3 points during this 7 year period.  The only point during this period that allows for not knowing the day nor the hour is at the beginning, which could be anytime, requiring us to watch.  Anytime after the covenant is signed, anyone with a bible can count down the days to wrath, and glorious return of the Lion with fire in his eyes.

Immimency scripture forewarning us to be ready, along with keeping us from the hour (or escape), the blessed hope, God's preference for removing his people before dishing out Judgment, the unlikely need for a ready and waiting bride to be beaten up and tested when Christ has already taken our punishment on the cross, just does not make any sense to me.

The Rapture are actually 2 resurection orders. I believe that "no one knows the day not the hour" is two-fold.
- The ones that will precede us are the ones that slept in Christ. These ones had their faith when they lived, and almost all of them knew not the day they died in Christ, yet also needed to preserve their faith as they lived and progressed in Christ.
- We who are alive and will see this event take place alive.

In short that is called the rapture of the Church.

When does the church age end ? The church age end when 2000 years have passed. There are 7 years left from the prophecy of weeks in Daniel. This week is called the Tribulation and is a "left over" of the 4th millenium that will be fullfilled with the Second Coming.

Jesus gives hints when the 2000 years have passed (Matthew 24's fig tree) So instead of counting all the way from the start of the New Covenant (32 AD) until now we could also take a short cut by adding one generation from 1967.

Now back to us living people; "No one knows the day nor the hour" is A if not THE nickname for Rosh Hashana. The feast of trumpets. Why else is Paul talking about trumpets when he talks about "that day". John's Revelational writings where not released the day Paul wrote the letter (!)

It all becomes even more interesting when you find out that Christ was born on the day of Rosh Hashana, and lived 33.5 years. [And that brings you exactly to pesach 32 AD]

Christ said: If not for the ELECT those days are shortened. When the rapture is at Rosh Hashana. Apparently 7 years without the salt of the earth is almost more then humanity can bare, and then He comes back.

I have very strong evidence that He might come to pick us up at Rosh Hashana before the wrath is poured out, and I know for sure He'll come back at Yom Kippur 2000+ years after He has been crucified at Calvary.

[The Crusader]

Bull

The Crusader

Hi Cru,

Thx for the gracious welcome and your really nice and concise commentary.

I'm sure the "Bull" you used is short for

"Bullseye" or "A Okay" or "right on" etc etc.....Right??

Or maybe it is short for "Bullwinkle" or "Woolybully" or "Where's the beef" or "MAD COW DISEASE"
LOL.

Peace,
Your Brother Frank

PS Hint....If you seriously want to critique , refute or discuss what someone posts, do it with chapter and verse from God's Word. That will always level the playing field!
It's okay to disagree, but let's always seek for unity and not division. "Iron sharpeneth iron as one man sharpeneth another"

More Bull

[ollie]

Bull

The Crusader

Is bull your scriptural retort to this thread? If so where is book, chapter, verse?
The learning process or the presentation of truth seems to cease with such one word retorts.

What redeemimg quality is there for the saved or the unsaved in these one worded put downs?

We had another poster called "brother love" that posted in a similar manner. He/she left and you came.

Please try to give your posts some thought and put something worthwhile in them.

Thanks,
Ollie

[Petro]

The only bulls I have ever heard of, are the Papal Bull's.........??


Petro

[Petro]

posted by 2d Tim
No forgive me.  Again I did misunderstand you.  I will ask first next time    Sorry Bother.

It is all forgiven and forgotten as far as I am concerned..

I have yet to have anyone, who is solidly standing on the pre trib position, explain who the saints are??  of Rev 13:7

I think everyone will agree who the saints at 1 Cor 6:1-4 are those who make up the church.

It is clear as I mentioned previously, the church is the body of Christ. Eph 5:29-30

What makes these saints any different than the Saints of Rev 13:7??  or ;

Am I wrong in presumming  these are Tribulation saints??

Is there more than one kind of Saint?? Those who make up His body and others who don't??

It is difficult to make sense of all that is going on in Revelation.  John is writing down all that he is seeing.  No doubt that having a glimps of heaven, and things that are happening there would be most difficult for any human describe the things of heaven and far reaching future for John in his bible day lingo.   The Saints of Rev 13:7 could very well be the church on earth.  Clearly they are people who have accepted the Gospel of christ and are being overcome by the beast.  My question here is, when the church is removed, will anyone who comes to a saving knowledge of christ be considered a Saint also?

If those at Rev 13:7, are Saints, which make up the church, then just by virute of the fact they are a part of the church, make them members of the Body of Christ, remember the mystery which Paul explains, that of two God was making one body (Eph 2:11-19) and it was revealed to Him by the Spirit, see what was revealed to Him at Eph 3:1-10.

My contention has been that the whole church is the body of Christ, the union of the church made up of Jews and Gentiles cannot be fulfilled until the last person is brought into the body and sealed by the Holy Spirit.

What doea this mean?  Well it means, there can be no marriage of Christ and His church until this happens..

The next point that needs to be made is that, the passage of Revelation 13 is during the4 tribulation, and most precisely appears to be the last 42 months of that seven year period, not the first 42 mos.  

Does it appear so, to you?

This is good, but if you would have gone one more verse to Rev 20:9
you would have read;

And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Who are these??  And are they diferent than the earlier Saints.

Or could it be, these are the saints that returned to earth with the Lord at His coming, all those who were asleep, and those were on the earth at His coming of 1 Th 4:15-17.?

From how I read it they encompass all the glorified saints who are ruling with Christ from Jerusalem.  They are encircled by this army of deceived nations within the holy city.  Does this mean there are never Saints present on the earth (or died during the 1000 years) who have not yet received glorified bodies?  If you go on to Rev 20:11-15 at the great white throne judgment, the dead small and great are judged by their works.  And whosoever was not found in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.  Sounds as if there may be some whos name is found in the book of life.   If all the previous saints were raptured or ressurected, whos name from all these dead could be found in the book of life?  (not to mention, all the nations on earth during millennium I take it are pure for the most part.  Christ destroyed the ungodly at his coming).  The text does not explain it, but seems to leave it open to interpritation.   If there are Saints in un-glorified bodies during the millennium, it would stand to reason that a few generations would die during this time, and some if not all at the end will be deceived when satan is loosed.   Of course this is all speculation.   I know this doesn't answer your question about the saints of Rev 13:7, but it does raise questions about what Saint entails, and is it possible for there to be Both Saints in a glory state, and eartly Saints all at the same time.

Grace and Peace!

Ok, I see this, if it is, these saints in the camp are those who returned with Jesus they possess glorified bodies, but it doesn't mean the marriage supper has taken place yet.  

And if there are any who have been saved during the tribulation, how is it, they are seen as being outside the body of Christ?

What basis is there for tesaching there two bodies, that of Christ and then others who are not in Christ.

It is clear to me that if any become saved during the tribulation it is because they have believed "on Jesus"  look at John 17:20, closely, they become Christ's because they have believed on Jesus through the words of others, have been sealed by the Spirit nand they belong to Christ;

Or is there another salvation program, using the everlasting gospel?

If you remember I posted these when we discussed this very thing, before.

Jhn 17
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;


Does this prayer include just the those in church age or does it cover all believers to the end?

My next question;

If these are saved by coming thru the Great Tribulation are not of the Body iof Christ, what are they??

It is clear, God is making one body of two, Jews and Gentiles.

The more I look at these verses, the more it appears to me, The church remains thru the tribulation is raptured at the end of it, and continues to have those added to it, who are ordained unto life (Acts 13:48), right up until the end.

Thats whats it looks like......


Blessings

Petro

[twobombs]

Petro: even though in theory seperated by days: Trib yes, Wrath no. I do not feel called to put you down on your beliefs. But we are really talking about 10 days to a max of 7 years; I for one do not want to waste much time and efford on that discussion, for it's a non-issue.

When you think you're ready and richeouss enough to receive the wrath of the almighty then maybe, just maybe something, somewhere in your brain/being is asking some pretty painfull questons....

I am not a vessle that is being prepared for wrath; Trib aye, but wrath ? NEVER !

You see; you can shoot down the -i'm not going to see all the bad stuff 'cuz i'm gonna be raptured- view, but gunning down wrath is harder, my brother. I for one, am convinced we are going to see the antichrist; the worldly chritian will fall for his FLATTERIES and CHARMING talk. They'll think he's a christian. Kinda like Bush now    

But before the wrath the true nation of God will be raised !

[2nd Timothy]

Petro,

You raise some good points in your last post.

If those at Rev 13:7, are Saints, which make up the church, then just by virute of the fact they are a part of the church, make them members of the Body of Christ, remember the mystery which Paul explains, that of two God was making one body (Eph 2:11-19) and it was revealed to Him by the Spirit, see what was revealed to Him at Eph 3:1-10.

My contention has been that the whole church is the body of Christ, the union of the church made up of Jews and Gentiles cannot be fulfilled until the last person is brought into the body and sealed by the Holy Spirit.

What doea this mean?  Well it means, there can be no marriage of Christ and His church until this happens..

I guess it boils down to who is the bride of Christ.  While we are all part of one body, the body has many parts.  Not that this point alone disproves what you are saying.  I will have to give this more thought and prayer.

The next point that needs to be made is that, the passage of Revelation 13 is during the4 tribulation, and most precisely appears to be the last 42 months of that seven year period, not the first 42 mos.  

Does it appear so, to you?

I would agree.  This looks to be at the halfway point, or last half as the beast has just set up his image to be worshiped, and declaring himself God.

Ok, I see this, if it is, these saints in the camp are those who returned with Jesus they possess glorified bodies, but it doesn't mean the marriage supper has taken place yet.  

And if there are any who have been saved during the tribulation, how is it, they are seen as being outside the body of Christ?

What basis is there for tesaching there two bodies, that of Christ and then others who are not in Christ.

While I would agree that Revelations may not all be in chronological order, it does appear that the wedding and supper have already taken place in Rev 19:7.  Johns vision continues right afterwards seeing heaven opened and the Lords triumphant return to the earth to rule with his Bride.  Clearly the armies of Satans deceived nations are spoken of after the 1000 year reign, and are focussing on the Lord and his saints in the holy city in one last attemp to defeat God.  After this we see the great white throne judgment, where the dead souls are judged....and yet it sounds as though some will be found written in the book of life even here.  Are these considered to be part of the bride as well even though the wedding has taken place back in chapter 19?  I find it interesting that the Tribulation saints are given Robes, while the bride is described as being adorned in White fine linen. Is there a distinction here between the two?  I can't say for sure, but the language does seem different.  Also he says, "blessed are those who are have been called to marriage supper of the lamb."    Again, another distinction between groups.  Is it possible that there will be guests at the wedding?

If you remember I posted these when we discussed this very thing, before.

Jhn 17
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;


Does this prayer include just the those in church age or does it cover all believers to the end?

Jesus is praying not only for his beloved desciples but all who come to salvation throughout history I believe.   You will remember that God took Enoch, and Elijah was taken away in a chariot of fire.   The deciples had much work to do, carrying on the ministry christ left for them.

You will also recall that when the Gospel is preached throughout the world Mat 24:14 then the end shall come.

If these are saved by coming thru the Great Tribulation are not of the Body iof Christ, what are they??

It is clear, God is making one body of two, Jews and Gentiles.

The more I look at these verses, the more it appears to me, The church remains thru the tribulation is raptured at the end of it, and continues to have those added to it, who are ordained unto life (Acts 13:48), right up until the end.

While I cannot argue all must be one body, there are various parts, and we do know that those who are called to the wedding, are described as blessed.

Very good points you bring up.  Again I must dwell on these further.  For now this is the best I can offer.

Grace and Peace!

[Petro]

Petro: even though in theory seperated by days: Trib yes, Wrath no. I do not feel called to put you down on your beliefs. But we are really talking about 10 days to a max of 7 years; I for one do not want to waste much time and efford on that discussion, for it's a non-issue.

When you think you're ready and richeouss enough to receive the wrath of the almighty then maybe, just maybe something, somewhere in your brain/being is asking some pretty painfull questons....

I am not a vessle that is being prepared for wrath; Trib aye, but wrath ? NEVER !

You see; you can shoot down the -i'm not going to see all the bad stuff 'cuz i'm gonna be raptured- view, but gunning down wrath is harder, my brother. I for one, am convinced we are going to see the antichrist; the worldly chritian will fall for his FLATTERIES and CHARMING talk. They'll think he's a christian. Kinda like Bush now    

But before the wrath the true nation of God will be raised !

twobombs


I agree and I believe everyone would agree the church will be outta here by the time the wrath of God is poured out on the earth, I see it for just a very short peiod of time at the begining of the millennial reaign, for sure..
Alot of Christians do not believe in the Millenial reign, but believe in the Pre Trib Rapture which could even occur up to the Mid point of the Trib.

We are siomply trying to put scriptures together that will, shed lite on the matter, I do not all of them, obviously, since I am asking questions to establish How it is pre tribs, come to the conclusion, I do understand how they get there but, the q's I am asking are not addressed.

Do you have any answers concerning my questions?


Petro

[Petro]

Petro,

You raise some good points in your last post.

If those at Rev 13:7, are Saints, which make up the church, then just by virute of the fact they are a part of the church, make them members of the Body of Christ, remember the mystery which Paul explains, that of two God was making one body (Eph 2:11-19) and it was revealed to Him by the Spirit, see what was revealed to Him at Eph 3:1-10.

My contention has been that the whole church is the body of Christ, the union of the church made up of Jews and Gentiles cannot be fulfilled until the last person is brought into the body and sealed by the Holy Spirit.

What doea this mean?  Well it means, there can be no marriage of Christ and His church until this happens..

I guess it boils down to who is the bride of Christ.  While we are all part of one body, the body has many parts.  Not that this point alone disproves what you are saying.  I will have to give this more thought and prayer.

The next point that needs to be made is that, the passage of Revelation 13 is during the4 tribulation, and most precisely appears to be the last 42 months of that seven year period, not the first 42 mos.  

Does it appear so, to you?

I would agree.  This looks to be at the halfway point, or last half as the beast has just set up his image to be worshiped, and declaring himself God.

Ok, I see this, if it is, these saints in the camp are those who returned with Jesus they possess glorified bodies, but it doesn't mean the marriage supper has taken place yet.  

And if there are any who have been saved during the tribulation, how is it, they are seen as being outside the body of Christ?

What basis is there for tesaching there two bodies, that of Christ and then others who are not in Christ.

While I would agree that Revelations may not all be in chronological order, it does appear that the wedding and supper have already taken place in Rev 19:7.  Johns vision continues right afterwards seeing heaven opened and the Lords triumphant return to the earth to rule with his Bride.  Clearly the armies of Satans deceived nations are spoken of after the 1000 year reign, and are focussing on the Lord and his saints in the holy city in one last attemp to defeat God.  After this we see the great white throne judgment, where the dead souls are judged....and yet it sounds as though some will be found written in the book of life even here.  Are these considered to be part of the bride as well even though the wedding has taken place back in chapter 19?  I find it interesting that the Tribulation saints are given Robes, while the bride is described as being adorned in White fine linen. Is there a distinction here between the two?  I can't say for sure, but the language does seem different.  Also he says, "blessed are those who are have been called to marriage supper of the lamb."    Again, another distinction between groups.  Is it possible that there will be guests at the wedding?

If you remember I posted these when we discussed this very thing, before.

Jhn 17
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;


Does this prayer include just the those in church age or does it cover all believers to the end?

Jesus is praying not only for his beloved desciples but all who come to salvation throughout history I believe.   You will remember that God took Enoch, and Elijah was taken away in a chariot of fire.   The deciples had much work to do, carrying on the ministry christ left for them.

You will also recall that when the Gospel is preached throughout the world Mat 24:14 then the end shall come.

If these are saved by coming thru the Great Tribulation are not of the Body iof Christ, what are they??

It is clear, God is making one body of two, Jews and Gentiles.

The more I look at these verses, the more it appears to me, The church remains thru the tribulation is raptured at the end of it, and continues to have those added to it, who are ordained unto life (Acts 13:48), right up until the end.

While I cannot argue all must be one body, there are various parts, and we do know that those who are called to the wedding, are described as blessed.

Very good points you bring up.  Again I must dwell on these further.  For now this is the best I can offer.

Grace and Peace!

2d Tim,

Ok we can sit on these, till the Lord gives more lite.

I don't mind refering to commentaries, but I find blessings come when I don't.

Somehow I have always seen, turning to commentaries for truth, as actually insulting the Spirit of Grace, since when we do that,  we look for truth in someone elses opinions, it is ok to  I believe to use them for simple reference but, not to make the scriptures fit the opinions.

At the trun of the 19th century, my understanding was that the Post Tribulation theory was more popular than the Pre Trib position, so depending which position is most popular  iswhat is taught predominently.

Kind of like coming and going with every wind of doctrine.

God Bless,

Petro

[twobombs]

Petro,

Again I read through this whole thread (where has choobaca gone ?) to get all the lines with a question mark.
I am *very* relieved that you agree with the pre-wrath rapture. But it was a pitfall  [ the Scriptures are marked bold ]

For the wrath starts earlier, as early as written in:
Jhn 5:43     I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

This man is the man of sin. This man is the very reason that it's scriptually posible to have a rapture upto 7 years before the second coming. But its not very likely to happen, as history teaches that the previous 3 jewish spring feasts were fullfilled within months. I espect the same with the harvest feasts, but then we DO have several problems; one of them is shortage of time, for in a period of days or even months it is impossible to pour out that much misery upon the world. Plus the worlds demise isn't slumbering; for decades we can observe several forms of decay or "birth pangs" as they are called.

The call sign is the "sudden destruction that cometh upon them" for it is written:
Eze 9:4     And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

In the same vision 6 angels carry weapons of destruction to "spare not even a child or women"  (   )
Eze 9:5     And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:

These weapons are the wrath, of wich we shall have no portion of, for our God is a righteous God in His judgements.
Now in answer of one of your questions: where we will be during the judgement; all of us will be in heavenly places; the devil will be cast on the earth at that time.

Now on to the hot iron called Rev.13; I will shake you Petro To connect the man of sin to Isael, we have the "42 months" as a ruler. Here we go:
Rev 13:5     And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months.
Rev 11:2     But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty [and] two months.

But wait ! read the next verse:
Rev 11:3     And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4     These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Now back to Rev 13
Rev 13:7     And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

And what will happen with these 2 witnesses :
Rev 11:7     And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8     And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

So, Petro, the question is, who do you think are the 2 witnesses. According to the scriptures above these are semaphores for the group of people that are persecuted and martyred in the last 7 years.

It would have been so nice.....

But the 2 witnesses are in a different resurrection order..... They both lived and died at the same time, were brought back to life by God and are raptured like the Lord died (for us) was brought back to life and went to heaven, but unfortunately those two are not us; they are not raptured with the sound of the trumpet; they are even in the midst of the woes; the latter part of the Trib.

So, unfortunately Rev 13 is not the right ticket to pinpoint us in time, just days/weeks before our Rapture, just after the resurection the dead in Christ, these are the trib saints, they indeed have more glory. Rev 13 is very nice however to couple the man in Jhn 5:43 to the state of Israel through Rev 11:2 or the same scripture in Ezechiel.

And with this I answered your question: who are the (two) Trib witnesses ? They are in a different resurrection order, they are not us. We are either before or after those 2; we are not them.

In anticipation of your/the next question; well, where are we in the scripture (without a coupling to the 2 witnesses) I will take you back to the last portion of
Eze 9:11     And, behold, the man clothed with linen, which [had] the inkhorn by his side, reported the matter, saying, I have done as thou hast commanded me.

Apparently the man clothed in linnen (this is a type of the Holy Spirit) sealed of the people just before the other 6 men started their work, and was finished whilst the others were still busy with doing their thing.

This is very (very,very,very,very) important: the fullness of the gentiles and of the believing jews are sealed before the 6 men are finished, not one is added after the man clothed in linnen came back to report, yet the judgement of God is still in progress, and even after the intervention of Ezechiel commenced even heavier; for the Lord spoke out his Judgement and commenced with it.

Petro, you and I know what happens when the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. To complete the whole thing here we go :
Rom 11:25     For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Previously you agreed with me that we are not appointed to wrath. Well, how can this be.... ? We are not appointed to wrath, yet there is an obvious timetable between the sealing of those that sigh and cry, the wrath, and the whole nation of Israel accepting their saviour as it is written in:
Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.

Petro: We previously also agreed that there is a separation of events; there are days, if not months (or years) between the Second Coming of Christ on earth, and us being raptured with the last trump, they are not the same event, just as Rosh Hashana isn't the same thing as Yom Kippur, yet are connected with each other.

And the thing is that I already quoted the answer....  let's go back to
Eze 9:11  And, behold, the man clothed with linen, which [had] the inkhorn by his side, reported the matter, saying, I have done as thou hast commanded me.

The man in linnen is a type of the Holy Ghost, and He reports to God. Which means; he went into the city; sealed off every last Gentile and Jewish believer, came out of the city, and reported back to God.
The effect in those days is also descibed by Paul in :
2Th 2:6  And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7  For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.

Here you see the of the man in linnen doing His work, sealing of men, until the appointed time, when He is no longer amidst them (and reports back to God that he sealed off each and everyone that "sigh and cry")

I know, maybe you're not convinced yet, but as this understanding who the man in linnen really is, is very (yes: very,very, very) important, i'll take you to :
Dan 12:6 And [one] said to the man clothed in linen, which [was] upon the waters of the river, How long [shall it be to] the end of these wonders?
Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which [was] upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that [it shall be] for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these [things] shall be finished.

Here the man clothed in linnen is revealed much more specific as being placed above the angels having authority to sware in his Name that this period will not be longer then 3.5 (prophetic) years; 1260 days.

Yes, Petro, here we are at the mid point of the 7 years, and the man clothed in linnen of Dan 12:6 speaks out and gives the answer.

So, the judgement will start at the 70th week and commence in a more severe manner in the latter part of the last 7 years:
Dan 12:11 And from the time [that] the daily [sacrifice] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, [there shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Dan 12:12 Blessed [is] he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

I hope you still agree with me on the pre-wrath stance, as here in Dan 12:12 there is the waiting game until the Second Coming; the fullfillment of Zec 12:10.

You see, Christ came unexpected for the Jewish nation and rulers in that age, and relatively unespected He will take us to spare us the agony of His righteous judgement and wrath, as promised.

More on this also in the Apocalypse of Elijah
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