Questions about percived biblical attrocities

[Petro]

Petro,

Correct there is a Judgement and I will get into that in a minute.  

Let's look first at Jesus' sacrifice.  He died and took ALL of mankind's sin, PAST, present and future.  All people before Christ with the exception of Moses, King David and the Prophets, died in their sins, ALL of them.  All the Israelites in the wilderness and even those who entered the promised land died in their sins.   Those who died prematurely in the wilderness died because of their rebelliousness and that was their punishment.

What do you mean "Those who died prematurely in the wilderness died because of their rebelliousness and that was their punishment."??

These that died in the wilderness, died in unbelief, their reward was death, they presently are in their garves awaiting the resurrection to stand at The Great White Throne Judgement, ther is no work which will save them; in clearer terms, they are as good as judged to the ertenal fires, beacuse they died in unbelief, if there are any who camje to the same faith as Abraham, they presently live with Abraham, since ;

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living..olor] Mk 12:27

Now, let's look at the Judgement.  All these people are standing before the Throne of God.  They have been resurrected in order to do this.   They are then judged according to their works.  What kind of works, and if 'good' works are they then saved?  If you are saying yes to this then you saying they will have EARNT their salvation.  A salvation through works.  God forbid, salvation is through Christ and Christ alone.

There is only one kind of work that saves, and Jesus spoke of it;

This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. Jhn6:29

The Holy Spirit has always done the work of God in individuals even in the OT the Holy Spirit revealed Jesus.

Jesus spoke concerning Abraham when He said;

  If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
  Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
  Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.  Jhn 8:54-56

Consider Simeon a just and devout man who was taught of the Spirit of God, notice what he said concernng Jesus;

  And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.
  And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,
  Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,
  Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:
  For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,
  Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;
  A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel. Lk 2:26-32  

How else could Simeon have known this concerning Jesus??

He believed in Jesus.

Proof that he had done the work of God.

And just like all believers, he did this work, because God had equipped him totally for it, God gave him Faith to believe in Jesus, (Phil 1:29)

Those whose names are in the Book of Life are those who are born again.  Those who stayed the course in this life, there is also a judgement for us but that is to give out the different rewards.  

Yes, I fully expect that Abraham and Simeonj are born again, in the presence of God today.

Some will be given one city others five cities and so on.

Please quote the verse you relie on, it would be good to look at it in its context.

Blessings,

Petro

[charlie]

Petro,

With respect you have ignored my first statement ie. that Jesus died for all sins PAST[/b present and future.  The unbelief of the Israelites was not the same unbelief as our unbelief would be.  THEY WERE NOT BORN AGAIN - THEY DID NOT HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT RESIDING WITHIN THEM.  Their punishment LIKE MOSES' was not entering the Promised Land.

IF YOU condemn these Israelites then the same condemnation hangs over Moses.   Are YOU prepared to condemn Moses?

[Petro]

Petro,

With respect you have ignored my first statement ie. that Jesus died for all sins PAST[/b present and future.

Jesus died for the sins of His people, not all the people.

Note;

Mat 1
18  Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
19  Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily.
20  But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
21  And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.  For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.[/b]  Jhn 6:37-40

Only those whom are given to Jesus b y the Father are His people.

Please tell me where you get the idea that those who are spoken of in Heb 3,4 will be saved.

You need to read these two chapters again, those that died in the desert did not believe God, Moses did believe God, in fact you would be hard pressed to prove he was  not saved,

Hebrews 11:23-29, lists Him as one of the great men of faith, notice especially verse 26-28;

Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompense of the reward.
27  By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.
28  Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

You need to study these verse in depth.  Your getting off the mark of this one..with where you appear to be going with this idea.

The unbelief of the Israelites was not the same unbelief as our unbelief would be.

Who says??  Rom 11:20-36, clearly tells us, they were broken off because of unbelief (Vs 20)

THEY WERE NOT BORN AGAIN - THEY DID NOT HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT RESIDING WITHIN THEM.  Their punishment LIKE MOSES' was not entering the Promised Land.

No one in the OT, received the Holy Spirit, and neither did any in the NT because He was not given until after Jesus returned to heaven.

IF YOU condemn these Israelites then the same condemnation hangs over Moses.   Are YOU prepared to condemn Moses?

No, Moses came to faith in Christ, evidence by the scripture at Heb 11:24-29.

Blessings

Petro

[charlie]

Petro

The Israelites were and are His people.  He Himself was a Jew, an Israelite.  JESUS DIED FOR THE SINS OF ALL MANKIND PETRO.  Adam and Eve - Cain and Abel you name 'em Jesus will resurrect 'em and give them a chance.  What about all the babies and young children that died in those times.  Those children who were sacrifices to Molech - where do you differenciate Petro - how old do you have to be to receive mercy or have it denied, or judged by this tyrannical god of yours.    

What of the Israelites that didn't rebel they still died in their sins are they condemned too, Petro?

If we go by the yardstick used on this forum Jesus' failure rate would be a disgrace.

[Petro]

Petro

The Israelites were and are His people.  He Himself was a Jew, an Israelite.  JESUS DIED FOR THE SINS OF ALL MANKIND PETRO.

charlie,

I forget where I answered another thread on the" Which race is gods people."  You need to familiarize yourself with Rom 2:28-29.  Gods chosen nation may be Israel, but His people are spiritual Jews, from every kindred, tongue, people and nation, not of the physical seed, but spiritual, incorruptible, and born of the will of God (Jhn 1:12-13)
 

Adam and Eve - Cain and Abel you name 'em Jesus will resurrect 'em and give them a chance.  What about all the babies and young children that died in those times.  Those children who were sacrifices to Molech - where do you differenciate Petro - how old do you have to be to receive mercy or have it denied, or judged by this tyrannical god of yours.  

This sounds like universalISM to me, charlie..this is simply not scriptural.

Did I hear you correctly, claiming you and your wife have a two person church??  

What of the Israelites that didn't rebel they still died in their sins are they condemned too, Petro?

If they died in unbelief, they are..

If we go by the yardstick used on this forum Jesus' failure rate would be a disgrace.

Well, that should not surprise anyone who claims Christ, and knows His Word.

However, your understsanding of who fails what is, also not scriptural, only those who believe Him, will be saved, this is not failure that can be attributed to Him, I fail to see, your logic. (Mat 7:21-23)

It is clear from Mat 1:21; He will save His people from their sins, His people are all those whom God gives Him, and according to Jesus, this is the will of His Father;

Jhn6
...........them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
  But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
  All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
  For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
  And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
  And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.   Jhn 6:35-40


Many are called few chosen.  Deception is such that those decieved do not even know they are..

And just because someone knows a scripture or two, doesn't mean they are known by Jesus.

And this is the greatest deception..one may know something about Jesus, but this in itself doesn't prove that Jesus knows them.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.  Mat 7:21-23

What scriptures do you rely on to teach what you have presented herein..??


Blessings,
Petro

[charlie]

Petro,

Your stand point in this discussion is becoming like shifting sands.

Jesus' physical people are Israelites, His spritual people are from all races.  Jesus instructed his disciples to take the message to the lost tribes of Israel FIRST.  If Israel is not important then why do they get mentioned in Revelation in such a SPECIAL way.  

We were discussing physical Israelites of the OT.  Not spiritual Israelites.

Universalism - what is that?

Many are called, few are chosen. True, but for what and for when.  Do you know Petro?  I suppose you also consider those who are not chosen are immediately damned.

Have I begun to get personal and accusatory with you Petro? My spiritual situation with my wife is perfect in God's sight, for where two or more are gathered in My name.....

MANY - this is the crucial word Petro.  Where do you find many who claim to be Christian, why in mainstream churches of course where else will you find them.  How many non-believers do know that can stand before God and say those things.  I am part of a minority, and I know others who have done the same.

Most mainstream churches are tainted with ROME as most are just schisms of Rome.  There is now at this moment in time a clamouring for unity with Rome by MANY denominations (demonic divisions) and if I am correct this even includes your Southern Baptist churches.  Our Anglican church certainly wants it.

Petro I am going to challenge you to purge Rome from your belief system.  This means to question who taught you what you know.  What authority taught you and what were their origins.  For I tell you the truth Augustine was a counterfeiter
just another servant of Rome.  Protestantism only protested it did not break away completely.  Sunday is not the Lord's day for example. I will leave it here for now.

[Petro]

Petro,

Your stand point in this discussion is becoming like shifting sands.

Jesus' physical people are Israelites, His spritual people are from all races.  Jesus instructed his disciples to take the message to the lost tribes of Israel FIRST.  If Israel is not important then why do they get mentioned in Revelation in such a SPECIAL way.  

charlie,

Jesus' physical people (as you put it) that rejected HIM, died in unbelief, and as Caiaphas the high priest, put it;

Jhn 11
49  And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
50  Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
51  And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
52  And  not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

Though He did die for the world, in the end, only those who placed there faith in Gods promises concerning Jesus, are those who receive the promise,  this is one reason why they are referred to as the "children of the promise."

This is perfect example of what I have been pointed out to you.

The idea that men who died in unbelief and had rejected the promises of God in Christ once already,  will be resurrected to be saved by Him, is not at all taught in the scriptures.

We were discussing physical Israelites of the OT.  Not spiritual Israelites.

The nation will be saved represented in a remnant, in the end times, these are they whom Jesus died for.

Universalism - what is that?

It is the teaching some like the Jehovash Witness's teach, where everyone will un litmately be saved, when they get it right.....the teaching comes in different forms but has the same ingredients.

Many are called, few are chosen. True, but for what and for when. Do you know Petro?

Yes, chosen to be heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ. (Rom 8:17)  Heirs of Salvation. (Heb 1:14)  Heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?(James 2:5)  Being Justified by Grace made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:7)

And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.  (Gal 3:29)

What are you thinking??

 I suppose you also consider those who are not chosen are immediately damned.

Well, lets put it this way; Those who are not chosen are rejected and do not become children of ther promise, they cast into outer darkness, because they have refused the command to obey the command to repent and thereby rejected Gods offer of His mercy towards all who sin against Him.

Have I begun to get personal and accusatory with you Petro?

My next question was, is this a church you are strating with your wife??

My spiritual situation with my wife is perfect in God's sight, for where two or more are gathered in My name.....

Well I am not doubting this if you belogn to Christ, you have asked me, certain questions which I have answered, stating I ignored some, when I haven't, however you haven't reconciled the ideas you have posted, with the scriptures I have given you.

How is it, you say, those who have died in unbelief, will be resurrected to be saved, when they have already rejkected God and the promise? Especially when the following verse states;

[b ]And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:[/b]  Heb 9:27

Square this up, can you, with your idea which contradicts the verses, shared with you.

Mat 8
10  ............... Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee.

In your opinion, who are the children of the kingdom in verse 12, above as opposed to who are the "many that shall come from the east and west" at verse 11??

MANY - this is the crucial word Petro.  Where do you find many who claim to be Christian, why in mainstream churches of course where else will you find them.  How many non-believers do know that can stand before God and say those things.  I am part of a minority, and I know others who have done the same.

I agree with what your saying, but how does this answer your opinion that unbelivers who have died will be raised to glory.

Most mainstream churches are tainted with ROME as most are just schisms of Rome.  There is now at this moment in time a clamouring for unity with Rome by MANY denominations (demonic divisions) and if I am correct this even includes your Southern Baptist churches.  Our Anglican church certainly wants it.

Look, it is great you have come out of these denominations, whichever one it was, but one must also, reject and leave behind, false teachings..

Petro I am going to challenge you to purge Rome from your belief system.  This means to question who taught you what you know.  What authority taught you and what were their origins.  For I tell you the truth Augustine was a counterfeiter
just another servant of Rome.  Protestantism only protested it did not break away completely.  Sunday is not the Lord's day for example. I will leave it here for now.

I do not see augustine as one who has taught me at all, (as you can see I do not teach sinfull man has free will, in the general sense of the word, man can trust and obey)

Man can "trust" which is a form of beleif without commitment, but can never produce a saving belief (belief with commitment), this is the principle reason why I do not use the word "believe" as a product produced by sinners with regard to the things of God,

because "believe" includes commitment, the problem is most who argue free will are unable to distinguish between the two.

It is a mystery to them..

I simply reject most of what augustine, but do not discount all he ever taught.

However I am leary of any who Rome look up to.  Pelagius was a heretic, yet his teachings ascended to the very seat of Rome, it was only by the effort of Augustine, that this man centered teaching was exposed.

Rome for the most part has always been semi-pelagian, though they would rather say they are semi-Augustinian (so as to sound more moderate in drawing the line between their teachings and Protestantism), the result of the Council of Orange where they struct a deal with the adherents of Pelgius.


But all this does not explain your position of UniversalISM.

Blessings,

Petro