Rapture........

[musicllover]

Musiclover: no, the analogy between the Giants of old as a reason for the flood and the people that fell/fall away from the faith and wear the mark is enough for me

Twobombs,
            OK now we're on the same page, totally agree. But you have to agree there are some mighty big powers at play here.....only we know is going to win........nay nay nay boo boo......
    thank you for setting me straight.

[Mr. 5020]

Musiclover: no, the analogy between the Giants of old as a reason for the flood and the people that fell/fall away from the faith and wear the mark is enough for me

Twobombs,
            OK now we're on the same page, totally agree. But you have to agree there are some mighty big powers at play here.....only we know is going to win........nay nay nay boo boo......
    thank you for setting me straight.

Totally agree.  Didn't think I'd ever see that at CU.

[musicllover]

Musiclover: no, the analogy between the Giants of old as a reason for the flood and the people that fell/fall away from the faith and wear the mark is enough for me

Twobombs,
            OK now we're on the same page, totally agree. But you have to agree there are some mighty big powers at play here.....only we know is going to win........nay nay nay boo boo......
    thank you for setting me straight.

Totally agree.  Didn't think I'd ever see that at CU.

5020,
      See miracle do happen........

[musicllover]

    To solve the "mystery" of the Rapture requires extensive study of "all" prophetic scriptures. Many people don't take the time to compare all prophetic scriptures against each other to get the complete picture. Pre-Tribulation Rapture requires the most study because when all Scriptures are pieced together that is the "picture" that emerges. If you miss a few details you will end up being a mid. Tribulation Rapture believer, miss more details and you'll end up a post tribulation believer.

    Heres an example. The two witnesses of Revelation 11 are a clue to the timing of the Rapture of the church. Why? I'll explain... In Revelation 1:20 we are told the "mystery" of the seven candlesticks, that they represent the church.

Revelation 1:20 "The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

     Now lets look at the "key" verse in the book of Revelation, miss this verse and its meaning and you will miss the mystery, and come to a false conclusion. The most important verse to understanding the book of Revelation is 1:19, read the verse below and then I'll explain why it is so important.

Revelation 1:19  "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;"

    John is given a format to follow and we are given a format to follow to understand the book. John is told to "write the things thou hast seen", what had John seen you might ask? John saw the vision of Jesus Christ (Rev.1:10-18). This is "PAST TENSE", he was told to write what he had already seen. Next he is told to write "the things which are" which is "PRESENT TENSE". The "things which are" encompass the seven letters to the Seven Churches. The "things which are" refer to the church age, in the "present tense." The seven letters are three fold in meaning.

   First, they are seven real letters to seven real churches in Asia at the time of John's writing and applied directly to the church each was addressed to.

   Second, they are seven letters to the universal Church, in other words they apply to every believer throughout the entire church age.

   Third, they are seven prophetic letters to seven distinct church ages or periods the church would go through.

   These seven letters encompass the age of the church on earth and we are still in the "PRESENT TENSE" period of time that is "the things which are". There are 2 church periods active now in the time we live in and they are Philidelphia, the true church on earth now, and Laodicea, the false church on earth now. They continue on simaltaneously until the Rapture seperates them and concludes the Church age. Philidelphia has the open door of heaven and is Raptured, Laodicea is vomited out of the body of christ because it could not be "digested" by the body of Christ because of false doctrine.

   When the Church age ends with the Rapture it will also end the period known as the "things which are", Present Tense" and be followed by "the things which shall be hereafter;" FUTURE TENSE.

   Revelation Chapter 4 begins with John hearing the voice of Jesus, sounding like a trumpet calling him to heaven. It is also the timing of the Rapture of the Church ending the period of the church on earth and the age of Grace.

 Revelation 4:1  After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.From chapter 4 on the church is no longer on earth, it is "Future tense".

Revelation 11 3: And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
   4: These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

    During the time period of the two witnesses preaching, they are the only candlesticks on earth, the seven candlesticks that represented the Church are now gone from earth into heaven and the two witnesses are the "Future representatives of God on earth.
 
     The ministry of the two witnesses begins at the signing of the covenant between Israel and Antichrist backed by ten nations, which starts the 70th week of Daniel. Their ministry ends with their deaths by Antichrist at the "Mid Week", 1260 days after the treaty was signed. Antichrist then reigns for 42 months, 1260 days from the "Mid Week to the end of the 70th week, and the Second Coming of Christ to the earth to establish His Kingdom. Put it all together and Pre-Tribulation Rapture is established.

                                        The Pre-Trib. View by Paul2

 

  First, they are seven real letters to seven real churches in Asia at the time of John's writing and applied directly to the church each was addressed to.

  Second, they are seven letters to the universal Church, in other words they apply to every believer throughout the entire church age.

  Third, they are seven prophetic letters to seven distinct church ages or periods the church would go through

Paul2,
       So in totally we are talking about 21 letters?

"PAST TENSE", he was told to write what he had already seen. Next he is told to write "the things which are" which is "PRESENT TENSE". The "things which are" encompass the seven letters to the Seven Churches. The "things which are" refer to the church age, in the "present tense." The seven letters are three fold in meaning.

     I think this is one of the best teaching I have heard (read) on how to read Revelations. Its easly missed, and so very right if your not careful you are lead off in a diff direction. Not seperating the tenses.

       I want to mention my earlier post on Justin Maytr. He was several years after the death of Chirst. And he taught about the removal of the church. It seem the earlier the teachings the more people thing it holds water.  That would seem to be a good rule of thumb at least.
     The disagreements over the end times, rapture is as old as the scriptures themselves I suppose. So if Justin had this "gathering together" in the second century.......then what of Jesus Christ himself?
Beginnning  at Matt 24:4, these are Christs own words He begins to describe tribulations, that we read about in Thes Cor. and on.
        How can Matt 24:15  Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation spoken about by Daniel the prophet (Dan 9:23),standing in the holy place, then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.....
     
HOW can anyone misread this? Christ is talking about a rapture.  

       Stay forever teachable,

[LoggedintoJesus]

I think that if the church is defined correctly then,we would have to admitt that it's here til the secound coming.
Who is in the church? All that believe the Gospel of the kingdom are church members.During the tribulation its clear that many are saved by Christ, therefore are members of the church.
There is only one Gospel, one faith, one baptism. One Church.

If others after the church is supposedly removed are saved by Christ, then does Jesus have two bodies?No way!
One kingdom , One church of the kingdom.
If anyone gets to heaven it's only through the Lord Jesus Christ. And through His gospel. So what is the result of the gospel , baptised into Christ by the spirit, sealed until the day of redemption .

[twobombs]

LoggedintoJesus : at first sight you are right, but when the restrainer is removed we're back in OT days again....  for a short while though, but OT nevertheless. What are your thoughts on that ?

[musicllover]

............cut below......All that believe the Gospel of the kingdom are church members...cut below....There is only one Gospel, one faith, one baptism. One Church.

If others after the church is supposedly removed are saved by Christ, then does Jesus have two bodies?No way!
One kingdom , One church of the kingdom.
If anyone gets to heaven it's only through the Lord Jesus Christ. And through His gospel. So what is the result of the gospel , baptised into Christ by the spirit, sealed until the day of redemption .

Hi, glad to meet you, I pray you find your membership here fruitful, and sweet. Jesus is Lord everywhere .....Ok I wanted to respond to something you said.

I think that if the church is defined correctly then,we would have to admitt that it's here til the secound coming.
Who is in the church?

  Difinition of "Church" is those who hearts belong to Jesus, man women, rich poor, NO denominations but ALL that know him as master and Savior.

          A few questions, are you saying "second coming" as in at the end of the time of tribulations? Second coming when Jesus will come as he left only desending not assending,  Jesus will stand, with feet on the ground,
Act 1:9-11  
     ..... Now when He spoken these things, while they watched, he was taken up and a cloud recieved him out of their sight.
       And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold 2 men stood by them, in white apparel
       who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus who was taken up from you into heaven will so come in like manner as you say Him to into heaven." ...........

         

This describes the second coming of Christ, he once stood on the ground and rose to Heaven, his return will be at that same place, only decending.......different time though.  
     
         Your saying that the "rapture" of the church is at the end of the 7 yr tribulation time?
          Who is those that will dwell with Jesus in the Millenial reign? Is it scriputral, to remove the church one minute, bring them right back to set up this 1000 yrs after the battle of Armagedon?
       Is it scriptural truth to allow the church to suffer thru the 7 years of tribulations?

      Back to "who is the church", and if or when they are removed.
      We can agree they will be removed right?
       So the question would be when? IF I am understanding you and how you understand the second coming then you believe the church will live through the time of tribulations?

     Correct me if I'm not reading it correct please.  As I've said earlier some get the second coming and the "rapture" confused. They are 2 seperate times, takes place differently. The removal of the church (rapture) is Christ meeting his church in the air, Christ doesn't set foot on earth as the angel describe in the Act scripture I just shared. and can be read about again in 1 Thes 4:17.......caught up together with them (dead in Christ) in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.....

     My understanding, is the Church will removed before the time of Tribulations.
         Tribulations is describe in Rev.

     Read carefully the scriptures and pray.
          The church is removed before Wrath of God come to fall on the unbelievers, before the anti christ begins his evil rule,
    the scriptures you shared are right and true, but pull them out a little more......one body one baptism, one Lord........AMEN and AMEN.........
   Tribulations is the begining of the "Day of the Lord" 1 Thes. 5:2, and Zech 14:1 (note the THEN at the beginning of the 3rd verse, this imply that after Christ has gathered all the nations to battle against.....the remants of the people shall not be cut off frorm the city.
     "remnant" is the church, God always has a remnant)
 Jer. 30......For that day is great, so that none is like it, and it is the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.
         Christ has no reason to bring wrath upon his "church" its those outside the church that he will bring wrath upon.

     1 Thes  5:1 and on
Mostly verse 9  ........God did not appoint us to wrath., but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.......that  whether we wake, (alive,) or sleep (dead)we should live together with him.
         

During the tribulation its clear that many are saved by Christ, therefore are members of the church.

          I agree that there is one body........ share you scriptures please, where is is clear that the church will remain thru the time of Tribulations?

Some will be saved thru that time of tribulations but its going to be hard, and difficult, those who refuse the mark, those who die claiming Jesus are Martyrs of the faith. I agree that some do "stay clean" that some of the church is here, those who found Faith and kept it.....someone begins the battle at Armagedon, ..... the saints spoken about in Rev 16:16 gather against the evil and begin a battle but who shows up but Jesus Christ (Rev 19:11)
   
blessings,

[LoggedintoJesus]

Hello Twobombs!!
You are talking about 2 Thess 2 v 6,7,8  I think!

The way I understand the passage is;That which withholdeth is to me not totally clear, but I have some thoughts.
We are told that their is a falling away first then the antichrist is revealed, to me this falling away is the work of the spirit of iniquity that began working back in apostle Pauls time, Paul mentioned it.
Today we can see that sin is increasing and many false prophets are showing false signs and false doctrines ,etc.Benny Hinn would be an example.
The result of this causes a general falling away from God," all men have seen the grace of God "(Romans) men have a conscience that knows what is right and wrong, but they sin against that conscience until they have virtualy little or none left, Homosexuals are an example of this.
A combination of false relgion , and sin abounding , causes a falling away from God in many ways.
True Christianity  becomes an unknown way of life for the men in general,and totally unexceptable too.
This all gives room for the Antichrist to rise as He will relate to the desires of men in general,after all the spirit of antichrist has been working a long time , and is coming to its climax.

verse 7He that letteth is God , God lets the antichrist have his hour. Then the antichrist is taken out of the way , by the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

verse 8 is again the statement that the antichrist is destroyed by the brightness of the coming of the LORD JESUS CHRIST.Amen!!

[LoggedintoJesus]

Hello twobombs again!!

After reading  Hebrews chapter 7,8,9,10

It is not possible that the O.T. can be reactivated.

Jesus Christ is for ever the Only way to God.

So then for anyone to saved it must be through Jesus Christ the Lord. That applies to Jew and Gentile.

There is no scripture in the N.T. that validates another way to God. P.S. the antichrist would like people to believe so.

[twobombs]

LoggedintoJesus: I use the term OT to describe the pre-trib believers sense of time after the years that "the One that witholds" (the judgement) to let the fullness of the gentiles come in.

The only way to make a pre-trib Rapture work is when you believe that there are going to seven years in wich a world leader, world church and world state emerges, where Israel will have it's short (false) peace after a brutal attack against its soil; and that you believe that the Church won't be around to see it.....

Pre Trib believers believe that they will never see the AC rise to power; they assume they'll be raptured beforehand. A lot of people on TBN believe that also; but not enough reason for me to call them or their doctrine false (I think that's a very dangerous thing to do and all)

Yet those seven years do not come out of thin air; but I am under the assumption that the Rapture and the 2nd coming are not very far apart timewise speaking; just as Rosh Hashasnah and Yom Kippour aren't far apart from eachother.

Another strong reason for me not to put too much faith into a pretrib rapture is the conversion and repentance of the Jews in Israel that really stepped up since the early 90's; another proof that God no longer seperates the Jew from the Gentile....  just as in Peter's vision on the roof two thousand years ago.

You'll notice i'm carefull not to judge the concept of a pre-trib rapture, but so far haven't found much hard scriptural evidence for it.

[LoggedintoJesus]

I believe that the rapture , is the second stage of the First resurrection, that happens at the second coming Of Christ,it's all one big glorious event, that everyone will see.No time lapse.Then Jesus Christ stands upon mount of olives and establishes the 1000yr reign upon the earth and all the saints with him. Satan after being bound 1000yrs is loosed,deceives the nations , destroyed from fire from heaven.Then this world is destroyed by fire, and then the New Heaven and the new earth, this is the only new age.  

[twobombs]

No probs with that bro  

[LoggedintoJesus]

Thanks musicllover for the nice welcome!

When I hear the promises of the Gospel of the kingdom.
Then I must conclude all that partake of the Gospel must be together because the result of believing the Gospel is one.
So whosoever believes in Jesus Christ the Lord, Jew or Gentile is in Christ. Which is His body the church. Sealed until the day of redemption.
There is no other gospel, which would be needed to have another body of believers. No where in the bible is two gospels ever mentioned ,rather only one.
One God, one faith, one baptism, one Gospel ,one kingdom, one household of God,one Israel, one church. they are all inclusive. In the kingdom of God.

So how can we say that those saints in the tribulation are not members of the body of Christ, which is the church?

There would have to be another way to God, another gospel, and that is totally  impossible according to the Bible.

So all are one in one God.

I know it sounds really simple, but thats the way I believe the bible has it.  Makes good sense too, because they are all together in the end . May God Bless you as you Ponder this!

[musicllover]

Thanks musicllover for the nice welcome!

When I hear the promises of the Gospel of the kingdom.
Then I must conclude all that partake of the Gospel must be together because the result of believing the Gospel is one.
So whosoever believes in Jesus Christ the Lord, Jew or Gentile is in Christ. Which is His body the church. Sealed until the day of redemption.
There is no other gospel, which would be needed to have another body of believers. No where in the bible is two gospels ever mentioned ,rather only one.
One God, one faith, one baptism, one Gospel ,one kingdom, one household of God,one Israel, one church. they are all inclusive. In the kingdom of God.

So how can we say that those saints in the tribulation are not members of the body of Christ, which is the church?

There would have to be another way to God, another gospel, and that is totally  impossible according to the Bible.

So all are one in one God.

I know it sounds really simple, but thats the way I believe the bible has it.  Makes good sense too, because they are all together in the end . May God Bless you as you Ponder this!

      I understand what your saying, but I've never thought about tribulation saints being a part of any other body of believers. All in all they are still a part of the original body if here or in Heaven. This is a new concept for me, that is why I am asking for scripture. I agree that that as in Eph we are one body, one baptism ect ect.  
        Explain how you believe that tribulation would seperate the boby? Or maybe it would be the pre trib rapture that seperates us. And I can pray and study, possilbe understand where you are coming from.
      RICH blessing to the believers of Jesus CHrist this beautiful day.
 
         

[Paul2]

   The Church is Raptured BEFORE the 7 year tribulation period. People left behind that become believers will not be part of the Church but Tribulation Saints. The Church is the Bride of Christ, Tribulation Saints will be friends of the bride Groom. The Church has a different destiny than Israel, old testament Saints and Tribulation Saints. Notice the word "Church" is used 19 times in Revelation 1-3 and not mentioned again until after chapter 19- Why? because the church was in Heaven during Daniel's 70th week with is what takes place from chapter 4 through chapter 19. The Church is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, Old testament saints were not and Tribulation Saints will be "led" by the Holy Spirit but not indwelt. The Church has a special destiny, and the Rapture does to things, it ends the Church age and age of Grace, and brings in the 7 years of Tribulation and wrath.

    Anybody wondering about what I write should go back and read all my posts on the subject. I have a thread titled Paul2's Pre-Trib-Rapture pages that give some back ground.

      Musiclover, there are 7 letters in Revelation that serve 3 purposes, not 21 letters. Each letter was first to the Church it was written to, second for the universal Church (all believers of all time periods, third, they are prophetic of the different periods the Church would go through. The Church leaves earth in Chapter 4 of Revelation when the world enters into "the things which must take place here after" read Revealtion 4:1. This is my favorite subject and i've spent 13 years reseaching it. The more I study it the more evidence of Pre-Tribulation Rapture I find, never anything that makes a case for mid or post Trib. Rapture.

     I've been busy lately but I'll answer any questions that I'm asked. You'll never understand the book of Revelation if you don't understand Revelation 1:19, once you understand that the rest gets easy and perfectly logical. Revelation is one of the most organized books in the Bible once you understand the format it was written in.

                                            The Pre-Trib. View by Paul2