WHAT IS TRUTH?

[Heidi]

Sunodino, the notion that it is up to us to reject or accept Christ is, in my opinion, simply giving more power to the individual than he has. It does bother me when we humans elevate ourselves above God. I am just as capable of doing it as anyone. But I can't endorse a belief that perpetuates that kind of thinking. If you want to use the word "accuse" which I don't like because it's assuming a defensive position, but if you want to use it, you "accused" me of misinterpreting the bible and having weird ideas. I "accused" you of an arrogant belief which causes judging.  All you had to say was that you disagreed with my beliefs and wanted to question them. But labeling them and judging them is going to elicit a similar response back. If you disagree with my beliefs, then I ask you to give me the benefit of the doubt by asking me to explain them instead of making pre-judgments about them. The same goes for your assumption that I believe human logic is perfect. I do not think human logic is perfect. I was using Ebia's statement that human logic is perfect to show how ridiculous it is. If you had read the previous posts then you would have seen that I think human logic is imperfect.

You also misunderstood what i was saying about the Holy Spirit. I blieve that the Holy Spirit IS what gives us the power to see who Christ is, not our own superior intelligence. It sounds to me, however, that you believe that the choice to be saved is in OUR hands instead of God's hands. That is what I disagree with. If we have the CHOICE to reject our salvation, then why is it ridiculous to say "Oh God, don't save me"? I think it's ridiculous because it's almost impossible, but you're saying that we do choose it.

As far as being an elitist is concerned, we ALL think our beliefs are right on this forum or we wouldn't have them. How am I any different?

I don't think arrogance is a fruit of the spirit, do you? I'm sure you don't think you have a drop of arrogance in your blood. I know I do. If I'm wrong about your arrogance, I apologize. If I'm right, then it doesn't hurt to look at it. I will do the same.

[Reba]

HOW CAN WE KNOW WHAT IS TRUTH AND WHEN THE TRUTH IS EVIDENT IN A GIVEN DEBATE?

Scripture

2. What can we  rely upon?

Scripture

3. What can we compare with?

Scripture

4. What is the confirmation we should look for?

and more Scripture


John 1:1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
KJV

 
 
 

[ollie]

Truth

Text:  Used in various senses in Scripture. In Prov. 12:17, 19, it denotes that which is opposed to falsehood. In Isa. 59:14, 15, Jer. 7:28, it means fidelity or truthfulness. The doctrine of Christ is called "the truth of the gospel" (Gal. 2:5), "the truth" (2 Tim. 3:7; 4:4). Our Lord says of himself, "I am the way, and the truth" (John 14:6).

[Royo]

HOW CAN WE KNOW WHAT IS TRUTH AND WHEN THE TRUTH IS EVIDENT IN A GIVEN DEBATE?

Scripture

2. What can we  rely upon?

Scripture

3. What can we compare with?

Scripture

4. What is the confirmation we should look for?

and more Scripture


John 1:1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
KJV
____________________________________________________

 
 

Amen.

[Heidi]

I was trying to argue truth in a universal sense rather than from a purely Christian sense. I agree that scripture is the truth, but a non-Christian sees that as blind faith instead of actually coinciding with the way the universe was set up. The truth as no contradictions. God's logic is perfect and His laws make sense. There are also a lot of other things in the universe that are true that aren't addressed in scripture. That is why the truth encompasses everything. The truth is all of objective reality.

[Symphony]

I think essential truth is a person.

We think of it as a concept, or a thing.

It's a good question:  How do we "instinctively" know "truth"?


But I think truth is essentially just a person--Jesus Christ...


   

[Heidi]

I think Christ is certainly one aspect of the the truth. But He even says that He does not know everything. He said He does not know the hour that the world will come to an end. He also acknowledges one who is greater than Him. Again, the truth is ALL of objective reality. And since God knows all of objective reality, God is truth.

[geralduk]

pilate did not 'recognise' the truth because it was only by what rome dictated was the truth.
and his eye was not single.
But had one on pleasing the crowd and the other on rome.

I once had two salt pots. and kept them in the same cupboard always.
One day on was broken and thrown away.
Some time later I went to get some salt and kjnowing that the salt was in THAT cupboard opened it in full expectation of seeing it.
But did not and no matter how much I looked could not see it though I knew it was there.
Then I suddenly realised that in my imagination and mind I had in veiw and thinking the one that wa sbroken.
ON that realisation I 'rembered' the other one and replaced it in my imagination and thinking.
As soon as I had done that "imediately" I saw the salt pot.
it was not 2inches in front of me and right in front of all the other things.
I was  BLINDED by the false thing I had in my imagination and thinking.
So it is with the truth.
There are "strongholds' of the devil in the imaginations and thoughts.
which BLIND us to the truth.
and so we need to be "renewed in the SPIRIT of our minds"
and lay hold of God for others in paryers and interc ession so that we may pull them down. and that the Word of God may take thier place.and give light.
Paul was praying to CHRISTIANS also when he said "that the eyes of the understanding may beopned that we may comprehened with all the saints..........."
So even thjought we may be BORNagain we need our understanding as to the POWER that ios towards us who beleieve and is made avalable to us.

That SPIRIT of TRUTH that "witenesed with our spirits thatw er are the children of God"
Will also0 witness to the TRUTH or laCK when we hear it.
That is what is meant we have no need of any to teach us.
That is RIGHT FROM WRONG.
TRUTH FROM ERROR.
But let su not forget thst Hr has given us TEACHERS to the church which among others is that it might be PERFECTED.

SO we are not to BLINDLY flolow AS THOSE WHO FOLOW THE blind.
BUT even as God has given to the church those ministers so written who are LED so to MINISTER.
THEN WE WHO hear LISTEN with the UNDERSTANDING and are LED;are by theSAME SPIRIT into the TRUTH that they expound on.
and all ;if led are built up in the most holy faith.

[Heidi]

Truth can only be discerned through paradox. That's why Jesus spoke in parables. Any statement that one makes outright can be distorted or misunderstood. But as soon as one is open to the truth, it lies before his very eyes.

[geralduk]

Truth can only be discerned through paradox. That's why Jesus spoke in parables. Any statement that one makes outright can be distorted or misunderstood. But as soon as one is open to the truth, it lies before his very eyes.

Not sure this is correct.
For a thing is only distorted and misunderstood when there is a LACK of comminication between the two parties.
But if BOTH parties wishes and seeks to UNDERSTANDa the other it can be done.

There is another way perhaps.
and that is by EXPERIENCE.

a professor sitting on a beach who has all the knowledge of the sea perhaps has in NEVER HAVING gone into the water 'knows' less than a young child.
Or having seen pictures and read all the reports and experinces of eating  an orange yet having never done so 'knows'  less than one who has.

No man who has "come to a knowledge of the truth" can be disuaded of it.
He can perhaps be UNFAITHFULL to that which he knows to be the truth.
But he can never be told or persuaded of to the contrary.

[Heidi]

I can understand what someone else is saying but not necessarily agree with him. He doesn't have to be speaking the truth for me to understand him. The truth lies simply in what is true, apart from our perceptions of it. The truth encompasses all of objective reality. Once we accept that, we are then open to what's true. For example, someone can tell me there was an accident down the street 3 hours ago. I can accept the fact that he's either telling me the truth or not. Once I acknowledge that he may or may not be telling me the truth, I'm more open to finding out if it was the truth. The truth lies outside of us and we can only receive it once we are willing to seek it.

[LoggedintoJesus]

(the word of God) found in the bible.
The word shall endure for ever.
And prove the test of time.
Truth can not ever be supressed or concealed for long.Because God has a purpose for it."my word shall not return unto me void"  

[ollie]

The Apostle John recorded the following dialog between Pontius Pilate and Jesus:
John 18
37  Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
38  Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all.

Jesus Christ is the truth, the way, the life.

My questions are these...
1. HOW CAN WE KNOW WHAT IS TRUTH AND WHEN THE TRUTH IS EVIDENT IN A GIVEN DEBATE?

Acts 17:11.  These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

2. What can we  rely upon?

2 Corinthians 3:3.  Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
 4.  And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
 5.  Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

3. What can we compare with?

Psalms 89:6.  For who in the heaven can be compared unto the Lord? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the Lord?

4. What is the confirmation we should look for?

 1 Corinthians 1:3.  Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
 4.  I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
 5.  That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
 6.  Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
 7.  So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
 8.  Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 9.  God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

[Petro]

"What is the Truth" posted by sundino

The Apostle John recorded the following dialog between Pontius Pilate and Jesus:
John 18
37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
38 Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all.

My questions are these...
1. HOW CAN WE KNOW WHAT IS TRUTH AND WHEN THE TRUTH IS EVIDENT IN A GIVEN DEBATE?

Since, you are using the scriptures to launch these questions, based on the statement Jesus makes of Himself;

"that I should bear witness unto the truth.
Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice."

The truth of this statement will be confirmed by the written record, wherein God confirms this statement by His own  words; that is to say that the truth will be revealed within the context of scripture which is the record of what God has said, whether He himself or by the mouth of His prophets, since it is impossible for our Holy God to lie;

Heb  6

18  That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
19  Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;

This is our consolation, on which every Christian hangs his hope.

And here it is:  God spoke to Moses and told him, to tell the people the following, Moses the prophet testifies to this, truth;

Deut 18
15  The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
16  According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
17  And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
18  I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19  And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

And again;

Mat 17
17:1  And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2  And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3  And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
4  Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
5  While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

I  have emboldened the words which bring out the  words which make the point.


Evreryone that ever lived and has heard the words, which Jesus spoke will be judged by the same words, He spoke in Gods name;

 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
  For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
  And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.  (Jhn 12:48-50)




Jesus, himself claimed to be that prophet, consider, his own words;

Jhn 8
12   I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
14 Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go.
15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
16   And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
19   Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.
23 Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.  
24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.  
25 And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.  
26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.  
28  Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.  
29   And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.  
30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.  
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

To the samaritan woman at the well in John 4; He said............

21 Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
25  The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
26 [color] Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.  

Jesus claimed to be the Messiah..also.

2. What can we rely upon?   The righteousness of Gods Word.
"revealed from faith to faithThe just shall live by faith." Rom 1:17

  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
  Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Eph 2:8-9)


3. What can we compare with?  

Gods Word.

Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: (Isa 28:9-10)



4. What is the confirmation we should look for?  

Gods Holy Spirit confirms to every  spirit of every person he SAVES, that he is a child of God.  

Petro

[Allinall]

Sunodino, the notion that it is up to us to reject or accept Christ is, in my opinion, simply giving more power to the individual than he has.

Sorry to backtrack...but Who gives men this power?  That is, to say that we are given the choice to reject or accept - may I simply say obey - does this in turn mean that we take power from God?  Who is to say that God, in His power does not allow us this decision?  Is He any less God?  Does our decision to obey negate our need for His Divine intervention on our part in the matter?