Why don't we call for the president to stop killing IRAQI babies?

[CrystalClear]

Crystal,
You brought up the scriptures and posted them I simply was using your idea, (crazy as it is) that because God took the life (you call this murder) of all first borns this some how justifies abortion,.... you still didn't answer my question.
 Did God ever take the life of any first born of a believer? NO......why don't we ask ourselves what caused God to take those lives? Even some of the Isarealites didn't follow the direction so their first borns were dead too. Unbelief, rebellion, doubt, ingnorance caused the death of the first borns not God. God left a way out as he always does, and the unbelievers failed. A murder doesn't give anyone a choice, no one gives the innoncent baby a choice of life or death, and neither do the mothers who abort them or any who believe abortion is a choice.  War, well you signed up you do your job, end of story.

the evening NEWS !!!!>>>>LOL>>>>> YOU got to be kidding, talk about a far reach here, The evening news....you believe  the death of babies are caused by God? Kinda like the headlines of the trash at the check out lines. You don't really believe that do you? You do believe that God is soveign right? He no doubt he allows many thinks we don't understand, abortion for one, but he doesn't kill anything, don't you get it, GOD is GOD, he allows a life to be lost or saved out of our own ingorance, and bad behavior, like drinking and driving a family is hit and some one dies, maybe a baby is dead.......who caused that? You would say God? What about crib deaths.....unexplained, but there is new evidence suggesting that crib death is linked to cigeratte smoking in the home. The scriptures tell US, YOU, ME, those next door, up or down the street WE CAN NOT kill.  Because God is sovereign, God doesn't murder anyone.

 I don't like war but I  agree with the reasons we went to war. (your assumption that I do is dead wrong DEAREST, I didn't sleep for day on end because my son was there) The scriptues tells us there will be times of war.......this is one of them. Islam is an enemy of all CHristians, its their own disbelief in Jesus Christ that has caused this war. Some say oil is the reason, possilby for man, maybe not for God. WE know form Scriptures that God can and has use war to take care of nasty situations like Iraq, this isnt' a war for oil I believe its a war of Alah verse God. Do I like the idea that baby are being killed, hardly. But as the original post suggests Our President didn't kill any babies. HE didn't have our troups dress up like civillians and mix among those babies. Your real beef (besides the war itself) is with Hussein. I'ed like to hear what he has to say as well. There will be deaths of many people in the years to come, you can't deny any of that.......man started this way,,,,, and God is going to end it HIS way and if that means war then so be it. If that means babies lives are lost then so be it, but NOT by abortion, that is cold blooded murder, not an accident caused by war.


Previous questions that you didn't answer. You claim your a marine, what if your were in the marines, would you like to be referred to as a baby killer? .........guess so since you thing abortion is ok.
IF your were President what would you do ? How would you have handled the years of not allowing our inspectors in, or the killing of his own people denying people water, denying food, supporting terrorismm, weapons of mass destruction  etc etc
 
You asked, would GOd use abortion to take the life of one of his enemies....I believe that would be contary to his word so NO, God will never advocate murder.  Abortion is just another act of ignoracne and disobediance and people will be judged accordingly, also for not standing against it...same as performing them yourself.  Through out your post you imply God is a murder, I know its hard to understand but
My point is God didn't take the life of a believers baby becuase of their acts of obediance. Is Iraq following God? Does this justify war?  Yes, is there any point in time when murder is justified NO. But war isn't murder, it is killing, but its not murder.
war and abortion aren't the same thing. As I said in my previous posts put abortion aside here let us concintrate on what the thread intended, except for the maker of this thread has stuck his tail between his legs and run.
WHat do you think we should have done about Hussein?

musicllover  

I am sorry musicllover but I don't think we can have this discussion because you don't seem to be able to read correctly. You attribute all sorts of things to me that I didn't say. If you are just going to make things up and claim I said them then I will ignore your replies on this topic.

If you'd like to redo this reply and cut'n'paste or highlight my words then we can go forward.

I hope you will calm down and quote what you would like to reply to.

OK have it your way, I knew you wouldn't answer. Nothing I post is putting words in your mouth, believe you me there is more than enough coming out of it the way it is. But since you can't or won't answer you act as though I'm the foolish one.

I'm finished with you, in the word of My lord and Savior, it is finished.
musicllover

Ah, but I did answer you. If you choose to concede then you may do so but don't pretend I didn't offer you the opportunity to continue. Just in case you really can't understand I'll give you one of several examples from your reply above:

You asked, would GOd use abortion to take the life of one of his enemies....

I asked no such thing. There's my Proof.

[Bronzesnake]

6 June 2003
Page 8
34. The Agency is continuing to pursue the open questions, including through:
(a) The completion of a more thorough expert analysis of the research and development
carried out by Iran in the establishment of its enrichment capabilities. This will require
the submission by Iran of a complete chronology of its centrifuge and laser enrichment
efforts, including, in particular, a description of all research and development activities
carried out prior to the construction of the Natanz facilities. As agreed to by Iran, this
process will also involve discussions in Iran between Iranian authorities and Agency
enrichment experts on Iran’s enrichment programme, and visits by the Agency experts
to the facilities under construction at Natanz and other relevant locations.
(b) Further follow-up on information regarding allegations about undeclared enrichment
of nuclear material, including, in particular, at the Kalaye Electric Company. This will
require permission for the Agency to carry out environmental sampling at the
workshop located there.
(c) Further enquiries about the role of uranium metal in Iran’s nuclear fuel cycle.
(d) Further enquiries about Iran’s programme related to the use of heavy water, including
heavy water production and heavy water reactor design and construction.
35. The Director General has repeatedly encouraged Iran to conclude an Additional Protocol. Without
such protocols in force, the Agency’s ability to provide credible assurances regarding the absence of
undeclared nuclear activities is limited. This is particularly the case for States, like Iran, with extensive
nuclear activities and advanced fuel cycle technologies. In the view of the Director General, the
adherence by Iran to an Additional Protocol would therefore constitute a significant step forward. The
Director General will continue to keep the Board informed of developments.

 The above report was taken from the IAEA (international atomic energy agency)
 The entire report can be read here...

 http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/report/2003/gov2003-40.pdf

Bronzesnake

 

[CrystalClear]

Brothers and Sisters,

To our regulars here:

By now, it should be painfully obvious that we have several trolls loose on the forum right now. Your discussions with them will not seem right for more than one reason. First, trolls aren't known for much more intelligence than it takes to eat. Beyond that, they are confused. Second, reasonable discussions with others is not on their agenda. Third, they should never be allowed to take a break or rest since they forget everything they've learned between breaks.    

We have at least 3 trolls on the forum right now, and they all arrived at approximately the same time. They really made it so painfully obvious that I would say they are trolls in training. They aren't smart enough to be graduates of troll boot camp, and I seriously doubt they will graduate without tons of remedial training. They really need to raise the standards for troll recruiting, as these are just short of being as smart as a billiard ball.  

They're cute in a funny sort of way, but they don't make good pets.    It's absolutely impossible to house-break them.

Moderator

P.S. These are so sad, they're a comedy team. They're here to make fun of us, but things have back-fired. I don't think that I've ever seen a troll team humiliate themselves so quickly and easily. These would be the type that think they are hidden when they put their hands over their eyes.  

I find it curious how quickly you and Dreamweaver slap the label of TROLL on those who disagree with your point of view. I'm sorry, I thought debate meant that there would be differing points of view.
So anyone who disagrees with you is trolling? I don't understand why you have so much fear of opposing opinions. God tests us all in the way most appropriate and Satan temps us all in similar fashion... I wonder if God is testing your grace or if Satan is tempting you with power... Either way I'd not be so quick to judge other Christians just because their opinion is different from yours.

Luke 6:37 - Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

[Bronzesnake]

 Some people might think I'm war hungry, but I'm not. I don't like war, especially the kind of war we find ourselves facing today. I honestly believe there has been a fundamental change in warfare. It's happened consistently throughout history, and the countries that adjust tactics accordingly are the countries that prevail. It's a fact that the U.S. military once believed air power was a total waste of time, and a poor tactical weapon...ever heard of General Billy Mitchell?

  General William 'Billy' Mitchell (1879-1936) was the renowned pioneer of US air power and generally regarded as one of the most far-sighted military leaders of his age.  Immediately after World War l, he predicted that air bombardment would dominate warfare in the future. In the early 1920s he horrified and angered US military strategists with his claim that bombs could sink ships and predicted the attack on Pearl Harbour 20 years later. When they refused to believe him he successfully bombed and sank warships to prove his point. Furious at his outspoken criticism of out-dated military thinking, he was court-marshalled for 'insubordination'. He never lived to see his predictions proved correct but was posthumously awarded a special Congressional Medal of Honour in 1948.

 Mitchell made a "ludicrous" claim - today, many people are again making "ludicrous" claims, that if these rogue nations are permitted to continue unabated, they will supply terrorists with the weapons and technology, and one day a mushroom cloud will rise above our homes - one day a man driving a car will reach his arm out the window and spray an aerosol mist into the air, and soon afterwards thousands will drop dead.

 This is the reality of the times my friends. We can not afford to be complacent. We either act before it happens of we react afterwards...if we can.

 Bronzesnake

[CrystalClear]

Bronzesnake, at the end of the day we live in a world community. Travel and communication has connected all of us to each other. War should absolutely be the LAST resort as a means of enforcing world law. War should not even be the first action when attacked. Diplomacy first to save precious life. I hear you when you say that Saddam refused to go along with UN mandates. The problem with us going to war is that those were the UN mandates not the US mandates and we should have stayed with the UN until the UN decided it was time to use force. Remember that we were NOT attacked by IRAQ and therefore had no justification to take the UN sanctions into our own hands and use force. We claimed the UN wouldn't do anything about Saddam and it was just too dangerous to let him keep making his WMDs. So we take matters into our own hands and find no WMDs... oops, maybe the UN was right about that but we can still fall back on the "Saddam was an evil dictator".
Bottom line is that it is NOT the place of the US to go around the world with our military "cleansing" evil dictators. You see the problem with that is that there are a lot of people out there in the world who don't think it's our place to do so and become VERY angry when we invade or threaten their country. There are a lot more of them than us and with a world view of "cleansing" we are going to end up like the Romans...gone.
Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

[CrystalClear]

Mitchell made a "ludicrous" claim - today, many people are again making "ludicrous" claims, that if these rogue nations are permitted to continue unabated, they will supply terrorists with the weapons and technology, and one day a mushroom cloud will rise above our homes - one day a man driving a car will reach his arm out the window and spray an aerosol mist into the air, and soon afterwards thousands will drop dead.

 This is the reality of the times my friends. We can not afford to be complacent. We either act before it happens of we react afterwards...if we can.

 Bronzesnake

What you fail to realize my friend is that killing the friends and families of these people will not prevent them from being hostile to us. Showing them respect, compassion and the way to salvation, feeding the hungry and clothing the poor is the way to peace. If you keep shoveling dirt on their people they will continue to look for ways to take revenge.
9/11 was Osama's revenge for the US policies in the middle east. Whether we believe that to be Right or wrong makes no difference to them. It's a dangerous world and we need to be careful how we treat others because violence begets violence.

Peace through the love of Jesus Christ!

[Bronzesnake]

Mitchell made a "ludicrous" claim - today, many people are again making "ludicrous" claims, that if these rogue nations are permitted to continue unabated, they will supply terrorists with the weapons and technology, and one day a mushroom cloud will rise above our homes - one day a man driving a car will reach his arm out the window and spray an aerosol mist into the air, and soon afterwards thousands will drop dead.

 This is the reality of the times my friends. We can not afford to be complacent. We either act before it happens of we react afterwards...if we can.

 Bronzesnake

Crystal quote
What you fail to realize my friend is that killing the friends and families of these people will not prevent them from being hostile to us. Showing them respect, compassion and the way to salvation, feeding the hungry and clothing the poor is the way to peace. If you keep shoveling dirt on their people they will continue to look for ways to take revenge.
9/11 was Osama's revenge for the US policies in the middle east. Whether we believe that to be Right or wrong makes no difference to them. It's a dangerous world and we need to be careful how we treat others because violence begets violence.

Peace through the love of Jesus Christ!

 That attitude might work in a perfect world my friend. Do you honestly believe these poor Iraqi people are just dumb third world folk who enjoy being crushed under the weight of brutal dictatorships? They are terrified to speak out against the insurgents - insurgents who mix in with the population - who take over homes under threat of killing the entire family if they even suspect collaboration.
 Listen to American Iraqis my friend, they overwhelmingly support this action, they are intelligent people who want freedom and democracy. They can remain Muslim or whatever else they want to be, but they deserve to live in relative safety and they deserve a say in their lives. This freedom doesn't come easy my friend, and you know that. They are not able to fight for themselves right now, and so we are fighting for them so that one day we can all have peace and safety, in a world free of brutal dictators.

9/11 was Osama's revenge for the US policies in the middle east

 Exactly what did we do to the Japanese to make them attack Pearl Harbor?

 Exactly what US policies made Osama attack the U.S.? Why didn't any legitimate leaders of these poorly done to countries attack us? What about the policies of the leaders of these countries toward their own people? Why didn't Osama attack them? You make Osama out to be a Robin Hood my friend, that's ridiculous. His intentions are not nobel, and I submit that he is far more evil and his policies are far more destructive and selfish than any the U.S. might have.

 He is a religious Islamic fanatic bent on becoming a king in his own oil rich Islamic dictatorship, where street cops can beat and kill women for allowing her human tent to accidently drop and expose her bare arm, which as we know is evil and impure, and punishable by severe public beating or death. Don't you remember what Afghanistan was like when he was in control there? Did you not see the public executions which took place on a soccer field, where people were arbitrarily condemned for the slightest infraction, either real or imagined, then slowly strangled to death by short hanging or shot in the head?

 This type of evil has been allowed to exist long enough. These freaks are actively seeking to murder you and your loved ones Crystal, and the reality is that there are certain countries which are all to eager to help them out. We must clean this boil off the face of the earth, the sooner the better.

 Your comparison to the Roman empire is not defendable my friend. They were bent on conquest and world domination. The U.S. and their allies are defending your freedom and safety, even though you don't agree with it.

Bronzesnake

[CrystalClear]

That attitude might work in a perfect world my friend. Do you honestly believe these poor Iraqi people are just dumb third world folk who enjoy being crushed under the weight of brutal dictatorships?

No, I think they are still under the influence of fundamental religion which keeps them in the mindset that allows them to be dominated by these dictators. Christianity has about 600 years on Islam so lets look back and see where Europe was about 600 years ago...Hmm... the 1400s... not such a shining example of liberty and freedom. Brutal Monarchs having their strings pulled by the clergy, in a feudal society bent on domination by force...

They are terrified to speak out against the insurgents - insurgents who mix in with the population - who take over homes under threat of killing the entire family if they even suspect collaboration.

A lot of them are straight from the population because they resent the invasion and the occupation. They may be glad that Saddam is gone but they are not happy to have us there. The longer we stay the worse it gets and the more insurgents we CREATE.

 Listen to American Iraqis my friend, they overwhelmingly support this action, they are intelligent people who want freedom and democracy. They can remain Muslim or whatever else they want to be, but they deserve to live in relative safety and they deserve a say in their lives. This freedom doesn't come easy my friend, and you know that. They are not able to fight for themselves right now, and so we are fighting for them so that one day we can all have peace and safety, in a world free of brutal dictators.

You think I'm naive? Power and greed will always temp humans. It's very easy to point to Iraqis here in the US where our democratic society has been running for a few hundred years. The people of Iraq do not understand democracy nor our way of life or they would be fighting for themselves.
I WANT them to have freedom and I have no problem helping them but to send our children to fight in place of their children? To spend BILLIONS of our money when they have the richest oil reserves in the world? Come on, there is a difference between help a democracy to flourish and creating one where it NEVER existed.

Exactly what did we do to the Japanese to make them attack Pearl Harbor?

Nothing, they were bent on imperialism. They believed their way of life was better than ours and saw us as a threat. So they attacked, sound familiar?

Exactly what US policies made Osama attack the U.S.?

You don't know? Like our policy regarding the Israel/Palastine issue... our dealings with the Saudis... our pushing of our religion on them.

Why didn't any legitimate leaders of these poorly done to countries attack us?

Not sure what you are refering to here?

 What about the policies of the leaders of these countries toward their own people? Why didn't Osama attack them?

Are you serious? Osama has made terrorist attacks on the Saudis and others around the world. Come now, you're not really that uninformed are you?

You make Osama out to be a Robin Hood my friend, that's ridiculous. His intentions are not nobel, and I submit that he is far more evil and his policies are far more destructive and selfish than any the U.S. might have.

I never claimed him to be such and infact would revel in his death! I wouldn't p!$$ on his face if his beard were on fire. I agree with you completely on the rest of that paragraph.

 He is a religious Islamic fanatic bent on becoming a king in his own oil rich Islamic dictatorship, where street cops can beat and kill women for allowing her human tent to accidently drop and expose her bare arm, which as we know is evil and impure, and punishable by severe public beating or death. Don't you remember what Afghanistan was like when he was in control there? Did you not see the public executions which took place on a soccer field, where people were arbitrarily condemned for the slightest infraction, either real or imagined, then slowly strangled to death by short hanging or shot in the head?

Well, you are wrong about 2 things here. One is that Osama was not running Afghanistan the Taliban was, Osama just happens to have made them his allies because they too are religious Zealots.
Second, from what we know of him he does not have the aspirations you attribute to him. He is an Islamic fundamentalist engaged in a Jihad due to his literal interpretations of the Quran. Quite similar in fact to the Crusades and Inquisitions and a variety of other "holy" endeavors of violence taken up by fundamentalists.

This type of evil has been allowed to exist long enough. These freaks are actively seeking to murder you and your loved ones Crystal, and the reality is that there are certain countries which are all to eager to help them out. We must clean this boil off the face of the earth, the sooner the better.

Yeah? Then WTF are we doing creating MORE terrorists in by invading Iraq? Why is Osama still roaming free? Why is our military bogged down in Iraq instead of combing Afghanistan and Pakistan?
As I said before we are part of the world community and we can not just run off invading souvereign countries and killing it's citizens. WE MUST USE PEACEFUL MEANS FIRST!

Your comparison to the Roman empire is not defendable my friend. They were bent on conquest and world domination. The U.S. and their allies are defending your freedom and safety, even though you don't agree with it.

If you say so... But the comparision has striking similarities. Like imposing our ideals on other nations by force or threat of force. Just because we don't leave behind troops to... oh wait, yes we do do that to don't we. Name a country we didn't invade, occupy or annex that doesn't have a military base...

Bronzesnake

Look here, an adult discussion! Praise the lord it actually can be done!

[musicllover]

Crystal,
You brought up the scriptures and posted them I simply was using your idea, (crazy as it is) that because God took the life (you call this murder) of all first borns this some how justifies abortion,.... you still didn't answer my question.
 Did God ever take the life of any first born of a believer? NO......why don't we ask ourselves what caused God to take those lives? Even some of the Isarealites didn't follow the direction so their first borns were dead too. Unbelief, rebellion, doubt, ingnorance caused the death of the first borns not God. God left a way out as he always does, and the unbelievers failed. A murder doesn't give anyone a choice, no one gives the innoncent baby a choice of life or death, and neither do the mothers who abort them or any who believe abortion is a choice.  War, well you signed up you do your job, end of story.

the evening NEWS !!!!>>>>LOL>>>>> YOU got to be kidding, talk about a far reach here, The evening news....you believe  the death of babies are caused by God? Kinda like the headlines of the trash at the check out lines. You don't really believe that do you? You do believe that God is soveign right? He no doubt he allows many thinks we don't understand, abortion for one, but he doesn't kill anything, don't you get it, GOD is GOD, he allows a life to be lost or saved out of our own ingorance, and bad behavior, like drinking and driving a family is hit and some one dies, maybe a baby is dead.......who caused that? You would say God? What about crib deaths.....unexplained, but there is new evidence suggesting that crib death is linked to cigeratte smoking in the home. The scriptures tell US, YOU, ME, those next door, up or down the street WE CAN NOT kill.  Because God is sovereign, God doesn't murder anyone.

 I don't like war but I  agree with the reasons we went to war. (your assumption that I do is dead wrong DEAREST, I didn't sleep for day on end because my son was there) The scriptues tells us there will be times of war.......this is one of them. Islam is an enemy of all CHristians, its their own disbelief in Jesus Christ that has caused this war. Some say oil is the reason, possilby for man, maybe not for God. WE know form Scriptures that God can and has use war to take care of nasty situations like Iraq, this isnt' a war for oil I believe its a war of Alah verse God. Do I like the idea that baby are being killed, hardly. But as the original post suggests Our President didn't kill any babies. HE didn't have our troups dress up like civillians and mix among those babies. Your real beef (besides the war itself) is with Hussein. I'ed like to hear what he has to say as well. There will be deaths of many people in the years to come, you can't deny any of that.......man started this way,,,,, and God is going to end it HIS way and if that means war then so be it. If that means babies lives are lost then so be it, but NOT by abortion, that is cold blooded murder, not an accident caused by war.


Previous questions that you didn't answer. You claim your a marine, what if your were in the marines, would you like to be referred to as a baby killer? .........guess so since you thing abortion is ok.
IF your were President what would you do ? How would you have handled the years of not allowing our inspectors in, or the killing of his own people denying people water, denying food, supporting terrorismm, weapons of mass destruction  etc etc
 
You asked, would GOd use abortion to take the life of one of his enemies....I believe that would be contary to his word so NO, God will never advocate murder.  Abortion is just another act of ignoracne and disobediance and people will be judged accordingly, also for not standing against it...same as performing them yourself.  Through out your post you imply God is a murder, I know its hard to understand but
My point is God didn't take the life of a believers baby becuase of their acts of obediance. Is Iraq following God? Does this justify war?  Yes, is there any point in time when murder is justified NO. But war isn't murder, it is killing, but its not murder.
war and abortion aren't the same thing. As I said in my previous posts put abortion aside here let us concintrate on what the thread intended, except for the maker of this thread has stuck his tail between his legs and run.
WHat do you think we should have done about Hussein?

musicllover  

I am sorry musicllover but I don't think we can have this discussion because you don't seem to be able to read correctly. You attribute all sorts of things to me that I didn't say. If you are just going to make things up and claim I said them then I will ignore your replies on this topic.

If you'd like to redo this reply and cut'n'paste or highlight my words then we can go forward.

I hope you will calm down and quote what you would like to reply to.

OK have it your way, I knew you wouldn't answer. Nothing I post is putting words in your mouth, believe you me there is more than enough coming out of it the way it is. But since you can't or won't answer you act as though I'm the foolish one.

I'm finished with you, in the word of My lord and Savior, it is finished.
musicllover

Ah, but I did answer you. If you choose to concede then you may do so but don't pretend I didn't offer you the opportunity to continue. Just in case you really can't understand I'll give you one of several examples from your reply above:

You asked, would GOd use abortion to take the life of one of his enemies....

I asked no such thing. There's my Proof.

In your own words Crystal,

 "... Does God allow abortions to happen as part of his plan; it's not inconceivable is it? Perhaps these children would grow up to be enemies of God, I can't say...."

 You asked a question and then answered your own question with ..... ITS NOT INCONCEIVABLE IS IT?.....

 Possilbe you need to reread my intention here Crystal. I posted my understanding of why God took the life of the first borns, thier deaths were caused by disobedience of the people. God gave each house the oppertunity to save their children, they didnt' follow his mandates. There own disobediance caused the 1st childs death, NOT GOD. He set the plan in motion and the people were to carry out certain direction, some didn't.

The part that makes no sense at all is when you implied that the killing of babies is not a sin,  
quote...." I don't think the Bible tells us that killing babies is a sin, in fact quite the contrary:.......Psalms 137......, and Exodus 12....
Your trying to justify abortion with scripture. I don't think anyone would believe that scritpure says abortion is ok as you have suggested with this remark.

Last but not least,
You have no right to say anything for or against the war, or the Pres, you didnt' vote.
again I quote you......" I refused to take part in the 2004 election based on the character of BOTH candidates....."
Your lack of a vote makes everything you say null and void, you gave up any right to complain about what the President does or doesnt' do when you didn't vote.

musicllover

[Bronzesnake]

Crystal quote...

No, I think they are still under the influence of fundamental religion which keeps them in the mindset that allows them to be dominated by these dictators. Christianity has about 600 years on Islam so lets look back and see where Europe was about 600 years ago...Hmm... the 1400s... not such a shining example of liberty and freedom. Brutal Monarchs having their strings pulled by the clergy, in a feudal society bent on domination by force...

 See, you do believe Iraqi people are just dumb third world folk who enjoy being crushed under the weight of brutal dictatorships?

A lot of them are straight from the population because they resent the invasion and the occupation. They may be glad that Saddam is gone but they are not happy to have us there. The longer we stay the worse it gets and the more insurgents we CREATE.

 You've been listening to frightened Iraqi people who would be shot if they said anything other than that in public. Wait until things settle down, and yes, it will take time, but these people are no different than you and I Crystal, they want to be free and democratic, they want the fanatical murderers out. If the U.S. and allies pulled out, the insurgents would crush any hope these people have and a new Saddam would take over. These people aren't as dumb as you make them out to be Crystal.

You think I'm naive? Power and greed will always temp humans. It's very easy to point to Iraqis here in the US where our democratic society has been running for a few hundred years. The people of Iraq do not understand democracy nor our way of life or they would be fighting for themselves.
I WANT them to have freedom and I have no problem helping them but to send our children to fight in place of their children? To spend BILLIONS of our money when they have the richest oil reserves in the world? Come on, there is a difference between help a democracy to flourish and creating one where it NEVER existed.

 That proves my point. Iraqis who have lived both lives want democracy. I disagree with you that the Iraqis in Iraq are too dumb to know what democracy is. Saddam and his brutal government were in total control of the country and the population. Those folks are not in any position to fight for themselves, and they certainly have no access to the oil, you are either being disingenuous or you are very naive.
 Is it not the duty of the strong and wealthy to take care of the weak and downtrodden my friend?

Exactly what did we do to the Japanese to make them attack Pearl Harbor?

Nothing, they were bent on imperialism. They believed their way of life was better than ours and saw us as a threat. So they attacked, sound familiar?

 yes, it sounds like when Saddam attacked Kuwait.

Exactly what US policies made Osama attack the U.S.?

You don't know? Like our policy regarding the Israel/Palastine issue... our dealings with the Saudis... our pushing of our religion on them.

 Please be specific, that's just rhetoric.

Why didn't any legitimate leaders of these poorly done to countries attack us?

Not sure what you are refering to here?

 Well, if the U.S. is so evil with their policies toward these countries, then why didn't these countries attack the U.S.? Which countries are we talking about here anyway, and what is it the U.S. has done, which would cause Osatan to attack the U.S. for them... Specifically?

What about the policies of the leaders of these countries toward their own people? Why didn't Osama attack them?

Are you serious? Osama has made terrorist attacks on the Saudis and others around the world. Come now, you're not really that uninformed are you?

 What a load of hyperbole! Osama chose to attack the Saudis instead of Saddam?   Ya, OK!

You make Osama out to be a Robin Hood my friend, that's ridiculous. His intentions are not noble, and I submit that he is far more evil and his policies are far more destructive and selfish than any the U.S. might have.

I never claimed him to be such and infact would revel in his death! I wouldn't p!$$ on his face if his beard were on fire. I agree with you completely on the rest of that paragraph.

 I'm sorry, I thought you said Osama attacked the U.S. because of their foreign policies.

He is a religious Islamic fanatic bent on becoming a king in his own oil rich Islamic dictatorship, where street cops can beat and kill women for allowing her human tent to accidentally drop and expose her bare arm, which as we know is evil and impure, and punishable by severe public beating or death. Don't you remember what Afghanistan was like when he was in control there? Did you not see the public executions which took place on a soccer field, where people were arbitrarily condemned for the slightest infraction, either real or imagined, then slowly strangled to death by short hanging or shot in the head?

Well, you are wrong about 2 things here. One is that Osama was not running Afghanistan the Taliban was, Osama just happens to have made them his allies because they too are religious Zealots.
 

Don't kid yourself my friend, Osama was calling the shots in Afghanistan

Second, from what we know of him he does not have the aspirations you attribute to him. He is an Islamic fundamentalist engaged in a Jihad due to his literal interpretations of the Quran. Quite similar in fact to the Crusades and Inquisitions and a variety of other "holy" endeavors of violence taken up by fundamentalists.

 You cannot be serious!!! You cannot compare this to the crusades...you cannot even compare the crusades to the inquisitions, it's ludicrous my friend! You'd better brush up on your historical facts.

 Do you honestly believe that Osatan has no aspirations of being the head of his own oil rich Islamic country???

Yeah? Then WTF are we doing creating MORE terrorists in by invading Iraq?  

 "WTF" Come on man, do you have to use that kind of language? This "we're creating more terrorists" argument is just foolish rhetoric, and you know it...or at least you should know it. Hitler recruited hundreds of thousands of men women and children after the war began. Do you mean to tell me we shouldn't have gotten into that war either? Our enemies will gather, so we shouldn't fight them...Puh-lease!

Why is Osama still roaming free? Why is our military bogged down in Iraq instead of combing Afghanistan and Pakistan?

 Did we catch every Nazi after WWII? Osama is hiding like all cowards do. He's most likely in the mountains between Afghanistan and Pakistan; you could put 100,000 troops up there and still never find him. We're hunting him down my friend, that's all we can do.

 

As I said before we are part of the world community and we can not just run off invading souvereign countries and killing it's citizens. WE MUST USE PEACEFUL MEANS FIRST!

 Ya, let's wait until they strike first...oh wait a minute, we tried that already - let's never wait until we get hit first again.

Your comparison to the Roman Empire is not defendable my friend. They were bent on conquest and world domination. The U.S. and their allies are defending your freedom and safety, even though you don't agree with it.

If you say so... But the comparision has striking similarities.  

 The only similarities are the fact that there was war.

 

Like imposing our ideals on other nations by force or threat of force.

Hyperbole...very disingenuous statement and you know it my friend.


Bronzesnake

[CrystalClear]

See, you do believe Iraqi people are just dumb third world folk who enjoy being crushed under the weight of brutal dictatorships?

Why do you keep trying to put those words into my mouth? Please refrain from lieing about me. I can't be much more stern on this.
What I said is what I said, if you are looking for some other meaning then I'll give it to you myself.
They are saddled with centuries of false religious dogma that keeps them fearful of authority. Christianity has broken free of the oppression and tyranny of the fundamentalist mindset. This has allowed free thinking and hence democracy to flourish. Progressive Christianity (more in harmony with the NT) is the norm and the fundamnetalist is the minority. These people need to escape their religious chains and free their minds in order to understand democracy and free societies. Until then their religious leaders can draw more heavily on the population to create these insurgents. Only with progressive thought can freedom be attained. Our founding fathers wrote on this subject quite heavily, you should try reading some of it.

You've been listening to frightened Iraqi people who would be shot if they said anything other than that in public. Wait until things settle down, and yes, it will take time, but these people are no different than you and I Crystal, they want to be free and democratic, they want the fanatical murderers out. If the U.S. and allies pulled out, the insurgents would crush any hope these people have and a new Saddam would take over. These people aren't as dumb as you make them out to be Crystal.

Again with the "dumb" statement which I never said nor implied. Ignorance and stupidity are different, look it up...  
Yes time will tell...lots of time.
Most of the US allies have already pulled out. http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,12015162%255E1702,00.html
I can't find the figures for what kind of support each is giving, which I've seen somewhere, it's pretty pathetic... some of them are like 100 security forces or 10 consultants or just money...

That proves my point. Iraqis who have lived both lives want democracy. I disagree with you that the Iraqis in Iraq are too dumb to know what democracy is. Saddam and his brutal government were in total control of the country and the population. Those folks are not in any position to fight for themselves, and they certainly have no access to the oil, you are either being disingenuous or you are very naive.
 Is it not the duty of the strong and wealthy to take care of the weak and downtrodden my friend?

I have already explained why the Iraqi people have not been able to get rid of Saddam and create a democracy on their own.
Saddam is gone, they have access to the oil now. What's stopping them? Why aren't they flooding the streets with help for our brave soldiers? Why are we STILL doing EVERYTHING for them? I have outlined the reasons previously. It is you being disingenuous or at the very least pertinacious.

yes, it sounds like when Saddam attacked Kuwait.

Sounds like the US invading Iraq too, talk about being disingenuous...

Exactly what US policies made Osama attack the U.S.?

I'm not going to do all your work for you. I gave you a brief commnetary below, do your own research.

Please be specific, that's just rhetoric.
Why didn't any legitimate leaders of these poorly done to countries attack us?

Poorly done? Our support for Irsael against Palestine. Our dealings with the Saudis... it's not a matter of 'what we did' to these countries it's our foreign policies. You know exactly what I'm talking about and are just being duplicitous with this entire reply.I'm not trying to advocate what Osama has done or is doing but you seem to think he just woke up and decided to attack the US one day and THAT is simply you being either disingenuous or naive.

Well, if the U.S. is so evil with their policies toward these countries, then why didn't these countries attack the U.S.? Which countries are we talking about here anyway, and what is it the U.S. has done, which would cause Osatan to attack the U.S. for them... Specifically?

What about the policies of the leaders of these countries toward their own people? Why didn't Osama attack them?

You've used this empty question about 4 times now and I will say for the last time in this thread that if you don't understand what part of our foreign policies that have most of the world at the least a little miffed with us and at the most so angry that they fly planes into the Twin Towers then you need to do some research.
If your claim is that Al Quaeda hasn't performed terrorist attacks on the Saudis or elsewhere in the world then I say you are a bold faced liar or at the very least too uninformed to continue this discussion.
 

What a load of hyperbole! Osama chose to attack the Saudis instead of Saddam?   Ya, OK!

There you go again. YES. Osama doesn't care about Saddam, he's not concerned with oppressive governments. He's a religious fanatic and the biggest threat to his religion is western values taking hold in his homeland. Therefore he has turned to Jihad to drive out the infidel. Are you really ignorant of world issues or are you just playing devils advocate?

I'm sorry, I thought you said Osama attacked the U.S. because of their foreign policies.

I did, I didn't say he was right to do so and your assertation to that is without merit.

He is a religious Islamic fanatic bent on becoming a king in his own oil rich Islamic dictatorship, where street cops can beat and kill women for allowing her human tent to accidentally drop and expose her bare arm, which as we know is evil and impure, and punishable by severe public beating or death. Don't you remember what Afghanistan was like when he was in control there? Did you not see the public executions which took place on a soccer field, where people were arbitrarily condemned for the slightest infraction, either real or imagined, then slowly strangled to death by short hanging or shot in the head?

Is this something you heard your Pastor say or something? Whoever told you this is a propaganda peddlar and if you came upon it by your own thought process then you are severely lacking in political knowlege. Osama is on a Jihad and not trying to become a king. He is already (was until he was disowned for speaking out against the royal family) extremely wealthy and can enjoy that type of society in plenty of places in the middle east.

Don't kid yourself my friend, Osama was calling the shots in Afghanistan

Then why not just take over and be king? You're foolish ideas are without merit.

You cannot be serious!!! You cannot compare this to the crusades...you cannot even compare the crusades to the inquisitions, it's ludicrous my friend! You'd better brush up on your historical facts.

You miss the point completely and I'm seriously questioning your ability to continue this discussion. You aren't grasping simple idoligical arguments and seem completely uninformed about this topic. You are running on empty with no understanding of world politics in relation to this topic. EVERYTHING you are saying is regurgitated propaganda.

Did we catch every Nazi after WWII? Osama is hiding like all cowards do. He's most likely in the mountains between Afghanistan and Pakistan; you could put 100,000 troops up there and still never find him. We're hunting him down my friend, that's all we can do.

#1, we didn't actively try to "catch every Nazi after WW2" although the Jews did try.
#2, if it takes 100,000 or 200,000 why aren't we doing what it takes to find him instead of trying to implant democracy in Iraq? We need those troops to find Osama FIRST!

 

(me)As I said before we are part of the world community and we can not just run off invading souvereign countries and killing it's citizens. WE MUST USE PEACEFUL MEANS FIRST!

 

Ya, let's wait until they strike first...oh wait a minute, we tried that already - let's never wait until we get hit first again.

Hey here's a better idea, how about we try to bring peace to the world instead of war. Secure our borders so it's difficult for the nut jobs to get here and work on our foreign policies to cut down on the number of nut jobs we create in other countries. Wow, what an idea.
What's your idea again? Oh yeah, just take our military around the world, invading sovereign countries and forcing our version of government on their people. Yeah, that will stop people from hating us. They call that war mongering, how about now that we understand the threat before we try to change the way we interact with the world and try to find peaceful solutions and use force as a last resort.

Your comparison to the Roman Empire is not defendable my friend. They were bent on conquest and world domination. The U.S. and their allies are defending your freedom and safety, even though you don't agree with it.

And how are we doing this? Let me type slowly for you so you understand. By invading other countries and installing our form of government. You don't get it do you?

Obviously we can not continue with this discussion because you are getting less and less able to maintain a valid discussion. You are resorting to simply dismissing the arguments I bring while presenting none of your own. You only have propaganda as information which you are recycling. You need to stop getting your info only from other fundamentalists and right wing media and try to find some objective sources of information. Any information...

[Bronzesnake]

Crystal quote...

I find it curious how quickly you and Dreamweaver slap the label of TROLL on those who disagree with your point of view. I'm sorry, I thought debate meant that there would be differing points of view.
So anyone who disagrees with you is trolling? I don't understand why you have so much fear of opposing opinions. God tests us all in the way most appropriate and Satan temps us all in similar fashion... I wonder if God is testing your grace or if Satan is tempting you with power... Either way I'd not be so quick to judge other Christians just because their opinion is different from yours.

 Crystal got quite offended when he precieved others were attacking him for having an opposing viewpoint.

 Crystal response to my post...

 

And how are we doing this? Let me type slowly for you so you understand. By invading other countries and installing our form of government. You don't get it do you?

Obviously we can not continue with this discussion because you are getting less and less able to maintain a valid discussion. You are resorting to simply dismissing the arguments I bring while presenting none of your own. You only have propaganda as information which you are recycling. You need to stop getting your info only from other fundamentalists and right wing media and try to find some objective sources of information. Any information...

 Oh please point me to your "credible",  "propaganda free" sources so I can be wise and correct just like you my friend.  

Hypocrite.

Bronzesnake
 

[CrystalClear]

In your own words Crystal,

 "... Does God allow abortions to happen as part of his plan; it's not inconceivable is it? Perhaps these children would grow up to be enemies of God, I can't say...."

 You asked a question and then answered your own question with ..... ITS NOT INCONCEIVABLE IS IT?.....

I was making a speculation to ilicit a response from you which is part'n'parcel in a discussion.

Possilbe you need to reread my intention here Crystal. I posted my understanding of why God took the life of the first borns, thier deaths were caused by disobedience of the people. God gave each house the oppertunity to save their children, they didnt' follow his mandates. There own disobediance caused the 1st childs death, NOT GOD. He set the plan in motion and the people were to carry out certain direction, some didn't.

So the victims had a choice... interesting take on that. Those firstborn which were killed had the choice and they chose disobedience... I've never heard that before, go figure.

The part that makes no sense at all is when you implied that the killing of babies is not a sin,  
quote...." I don't think the Bible tells us that killing babies is a sin, in fact quite the contrary:.......Psalms 137......, and Exodus 12....

I didn't imply I made a hypothesis based on those passages. I don't actually believe that those passages speak to abortion per se, but that the killing of babies is not unjustified by God in certain situations.

Last but not least,
You have no right to say anything for or against the war, or the Pres, you didnt' vote.
again I quote you......" I refused to take part in the 2004 election based on the character of BOTH candidates....."
Your lack of a vote makes everything you say null and void, you gave up any right to complain about what the President does or doesnt' do when you didn't vote.

That's not the first time I've heard that one. How about this, YOU and anyone who voted for this president have no right to complain. Anyone who didn't vote for this president (including those who didn't vote for either) DO have the right to complain. We have the right to complain becuase this is fundamental to our constitution but coming down to your level, we have the right because the person you helped put in office creates things to complain about.  

[Reba]

circles

[musicllover]

In your own words Crystal,

 "... Does God allow abortions to happen as part of his plan; it's not inconceivable is it? Perhaps these children would grow up to be enemies of God, I can't say...."

 You asked a question and then answered your own question with ..... ITS NOT INCONCEIVABLE IS IT?.....

I was making a speculation to ilicit a response from you which is part'n'parcel in a discussion.

OH I see you can speculate, to ilicit conversation only when that conversation goes your way and is only understood they way you want it understood. MY opinion it is INconceivable that God would use murder, which is contrary to his word.  

Possilbe you need to reread my intention here Crystal. I posted my understanding of why God took the life of the first borns, thier deaths were caused by disobedience of the people. God gave each house the oppertunity to save their children, they didnt' follow his mandates. There own disobediance caused the 1st childs death, NOT GOD. He set the plan in motion and the people were to carry out certain direction, some didn't.

So the victims had a choice... interesting take on that. Those firstborn which were killed had the choice and they chose disobedience... I've never heard that before, go figure.

I'm not surprised that would mean that you actually read the bible.

The part that makes no sense at all is when you implied that the killing of babies is not a sin,  
quote...." I don't think the Bible tells us that killing babies is a sin, in fact quite the contrary:.......Psalms 137......, and Exodus 12....

I didn't imply I made a hypothesis based on those passages. I don't actually believe that those passages speak to abortion per se, but that the killing of babies is not unjustified by God in certain situations.

OOKAY, what ever you want, you did begin to speak some truth with...."I don't think", which is the root of our problem here.  

Last but not least,
You have no right to say anything for or against the war, or the Pres, you didnt' vote.
again I quote you......" I refused to take part in the 2004 election based on the character of BOTH candidates....."
Your lack of a vote makes everything you say null and void, you gave up any right to complain about what the President does or doesnt' do when you didn't vote.

That's not the first time I've heard that one. How about this, YOU and anyone who voted for this president have no right to complain. Anyone who didn't vote for this president (including those who didn't vote for either) DO have the right to complain. We have the right to complain becuase this is fundamental to our constitution but coming down to your level, we have the right because the person you helped put in office creates things to complain about.  

But the truth is we aren't the ones complainging you are, and what a shame your opinion doesn't count, or maybe I should have said DIDN'T count.

musicllover

PS, TROLLS DON"T LIKE TO EAT THEIR OWN WORDS......