Is War With Iraq Justified?

[JudgeNot]

Amen, BEP.
The numbers of souls reaped by the terrible swift sword is uncountable... (except by HIM)

Welcome Cottondale!

JN

[JimmySwift]

Hi BEP,

Thanks for your reply!

I noticed that you mentioned fighting terrorism on Iraqi soil as opposed to fighting it in the U.S.  

Let me say, I agree 100% !  However, I think that goes to prove my point.  In my initial post I mentioned that I did not think the Iraq war was ever about any high-minded humanitarian goals, nor was it about WMD's.  It was entirely based on geo-politics.  I think the does somewhat sully the motivations for invading another country.

Supporting the current actions in Iraq is another thing all together.  I wholeheartedly support the men and women of the armed forces that are fighting in Iraq today.  I think the greatest tragedy that could come of all of this mess-opotamia would be for the allied forces to pull-out too soon, and leave the Iraqi people with a total lack of infastructure or governance.  Ditto with Afghanistan

cheers,

Jimmy

[nChrist]

Hello JimmySwift,

I really only have two things to say:

1 - We disagree. We are probably on different sides on many issues, and that's no problem at all for me.

2 - I give thanks that you don't make the decisions for the leadership of my country. That same person was elected once before and once after the war in Iraq. If I was young enough and healthy enough, I would gladly serve in Iraq.

Most generally, those who have EVER placed their lives on the line for INNOCENTS don't criticize those who do. Armchair philosophers who have never served anyone but themselves derive their freedom and safety to speak from those who do shed their blood, sweat, and tears for others - APPRECIATED OR NOT. I, for one, appreciate them greatly, but I've never been an armchair philosopher.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Ephesians 3:20  Now to Him Who, by (in consequence of) the [action of His] power that is at work within us, is able to [carry out His purpose and] do superabundantly, far over and above all that we [dare] ask or think [infinitely beyond our highest prayers, desires, thoughts, hopes, or dreams]--  (The Amplified Bible)

[JimmySwift]

Hi BEP,

Thanks for your reply!

I also give thanks that I don't have to make decisions for the leadership of your country.  

I'm not sure where the shift in your tone has come from though.  I certainly didn't mean to anger you in any way.  It would seem as though we have misunderstood one another.  your comment: "Most generally, those who have EVER placed their lives on the line for INNOCENTS don't criticize those who do. "  seems to indicate that.

I thouhgt I made it clear that I ageed with you in terms of the current U.S. role in Iraq and Afghanistan in my last post.  I have nothing but the uttmost is respect for the men and women currently engaged therein.  I thought that was made clear when I wrote:" I wholeheartedly support the men and women of the armed forces that are fighting in Iraq today."

As far as critique is concerned, my issue and hence critisism is not for Sgt. Smith somewhere in the Persian Gulf, that would be silly and misdirected.  My doubts are for George W. Bush, who has never "put his life on the line for innocents", unless you count occasionally flying a plane, defending Texas against the Veit Kong.

Its true BEP, that we are probably on different sides of a few coins, but I think that's great!  That's why we live in the best part of the world don't you think?

cheers,

Jimmy

[nChrist]

I see we have all been reading up on our Carl Von Clauswitz!
I have only one small bone to pick here.

From Reply #5

I think the sooner we all aknowledge that Iraq was invaded, and is now being occupied for political reasons, and not national security one's, the sooner we'll all be able to move on, and deal with the issue more effectively

From Reply #7

Let me say, I agree 100% !  However, I think that goes to prove my point.  In my initial post I mentioned that I did not think the Iraq war was ever about any high-minded humanitarian goals, nor was it about WMD's.  It was entirely based on geo-politics.  I think the does somewhat sully the motivations for invading another country.

From Reply #16

Hello JimmySwift,

There is no change in tone, and my feelings about your replies on this issue have been the same from your first post above.

Let's have a little thinking exercise here, and you tell me what your conclusions are.

Let's say that you wish to express your appreciation and/or respect to:

One who is serving right now in Iraq;

One who has returned from serving in Iraq;

One who is recovering from wounds suffered in Iraq;

A family who has lost a loved one in Iraq.
______________________________

Would you relay any of your above quotes to them?

Do you think that they hear quotes like your quotes?

How do you think they feel when they hear quotes like your quotes?

Surely you don't think that quotes like your quotes makes them feel appreciated - do you?

Are you telling the families who lost loved ones that the death of their son or daughter was for nothing?

Are you telling the folks who made all kinds of sacrifices, including body parts, that it was all for nothing?
__________________________

JimmySwift, you can't have it two directly opposed ways at the same time. You can't tell the Sgt. Smiths in Iraq (living, dead, wounded) how much you appreciate what they are doing and make the above quotes at the same time. It's like throwing dirt in the face of Sgt. Smith and his/her family. Whether you realize it or not, that is exactly how they feel. I'm only one of many who DON'T LIKE IT!!!!!! when someone throws dirt in Sgt. Smith's face.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Philippians 1:21  For me to live is Christ [His life in me], and to die is gain [the gain of the glory of eternity]. (The Amplified Bible)

[twobombs]

Hi Blackeyedpeas, Cottondale & all

Maybe my views are counted as a minority, or incomplete.

The war in Iraq is, once again according to my perception, in prophecy, and we've spoken about that in previous days.

In my perception was the second world war nessecary to bring about the Jewish state, the same that Sharon is giving away now in the name of "Peace and Safety". The same is in connection with the war in Iraq as Mr. G. Bush has indicated clearly that US troops are giving their lives on an everyday base for the "Security" of Israel; forcing the leaves that grew in the summer of this Godgiven state to fall (off).

Once again stuff that i've covered before (see posting, autumn in Israel)

If anyone asked me to summarise the situation then it would be this:

Isa 28:15  Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with Sheol are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us; for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

1Th 5:3  When they are saying, Peace and safety, then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall in no wise escape.

[JimmySwift]

Hi BEP,

Thanks for your reply!

I can certainly appreciate where you are comming form on this issue.  I don't like it when people throw dirt in the faces of soldiers either, it's just not very polite; plus, when sand gets in your eyes!  yikes. that stings!

That's why I make a concerted effort not to do that, and focus my critique of the Iraq situation where I feel it belongs.  

I really don't think you're appreciating the difference here.  According to your logic, no-one should ever protest the use of military force, because to do so, would be some kind of insult to the men and women in uniform!  That just doesn't make any sense.

I'll restate my view on the matter.  I have the uttmost in respect for the men and women who are sacrificing daily, both in Iraq and Afghanistan.  The nation building work that they are currently undertaking is an important duty.  I do however wish, that they sent under more honest ospices.

cheers,

Jimmy

[nChrist]

Hello TwoBombs,

I am reflecting on numerous very lengthy and difficult studies about Bible Prophecy. I think the Scriptures you quoted speak volumes, and they alone would be a lengthy study. I think that I understand the context you intended in the quoting of those two Scriptures.

When the Day of the LORD comes, Israel and the world will bear the wrath of God. The intent of the nations will make no difference at all, and there obviously won't be a hiding place on the face of the earth.

I can't remember if we differ on the Rapture of the Church or not, but if we do it means nothing in our fellowship. I believe the CHURCH will be Raptured before wrath is poured out on the world. If I'm wrong, I still belong to JESUS and HE is LORD over my life. I don't say that I don't fear death, but I do say that I don't fear death like those without JESUS do.

Mixing the CHURCH and Israel is what confuses many. It's a mystery to many why Christians would defend and support Israel when they are known for rejecting Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour. Bible Prophecy makes it absolutely clear that God is not through with Israel. Israel will be judged and purified, but Israel will also be an instrument used by God against other nations. How the born again Christian fits into the time of wrath depends on what one believes about the Rapture of the Church.

We know by Bible Prophecy that those who go against Israel will be cursed and destroyed. Israel will be restored. We also know that Jesus Christ Himself will rule and reign over the earth from the Throne of David in Jerusalem for 1,000 years.

My covenant with God involves the law of faith in Jesus Christ. My Promises that are my hope will be fulfilled at God's appointed time, regardless of whether I physically live or die before that time. There are some in Israel that share that same Promise.

Brother, I really don't remember how we differ, if any. I do remember that we share the same Eternal Promise of God. Differing on Bible Prophecy obviously won't effect our Salvation.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 3:21-27  But now the righteousness of God has been revealed independently and altogether apart from the Law, although actually it is attested by the Law and the Prophets,  Namely, the righteousness of God which comes by believing with personal trust and confident reliance on Jesus Christ (the Messiah). [And it is meant] for all who believe. For there is no distinction, Since all have sinned and are falling short of the honor and glory which God bestows and receives. [All] are justified and made upright and in right standing with God, freely and gratuitously by His grace (His unmerited favor and mercy), through the redemption which is [provided] in Christ Jesus,   Whom God put forward [before the eyes of all] as a mercy seat and propitiation by His blood [the cleansing and life-giving sacrifice of atonement and reconciliation, to be received] through faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in His divine forbearance He had passed over and ignored former sins without punishment. It was to demonstrate and prove at the present time (in the now season) that He Himself is righteous and that He justifies and accepts as righteous him who has [true] faith in Jesus. Then what becomes of [our] pride and [our] boasting? It is excluded (banished, ruled out entirely). On what principle? [On the principle] of doing good deeds? No, but on the principle of faith.  (The Amplified Bible)

Romans 8:1-2  THEREFORE, [there is] now no condemnation (no adjudging guilty of wrong) for those who are in Christ Jesus, who live [and] walk not after the dictates of the flesh, but after the dictates of the Spirit. [John 3:18.]  For the law of the Spirit of life [which is] in Christ Jesus [the law of our new being] has freed me from the law of sin and of death.  (The Amplified Bible)

[nChrist]

Hello JimmySwift,

I believe the purpose of the Iraq war was just and honest, regardless of what was learned later about the still disputed WMD. I believe the truth of the WMD will eventually be found out and revealed. Regardless, there was a ruthless butcher to deal with who was a lit fuse on a time bomb for that area of the world. Very few will deny that there was a time bomb there that represented a threat to the peace and security of the world. Mass murder approaching Hitler style is also impossible to deny. We probably differ on at least part of the above, and that's fine.

Yes, we differ on war protests also. I probably have too much of an idealistic view on this. The debates should occur first, and they did for over 10 years. When the decision has been made and our men and women are committed, it is time for the entire country to get behind them and stay behind them until they are brought home. We probably differ on this also, but that's fine. I apologize if I sounded to harsh on my last post to you, but it is the truth about how our armed forces and their families feel. It would not be reasonable for them to feel otherwise.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 8:28  We are assured and know that [God being a partner in their labor] all things work together and are [fitting into a plan] for good to and for those who love God and are called according to [His] design and purpose. (The Amplified Bible)

[twobombs]

Hi Blackeyedpeas,

Yes we differ, as you believe in the separation of the Jew from the rest of the World (gentile) where I see none;

Rom 10:11  For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be put to shame.
Rom 10:12  For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him:
Rom 10:13  for, Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

So, as it is written above, there is a prophetical importance for it; there is no separation, or secret rapture according to my/this view.

Do I believe we're going through the whole 7 year trib ? No, because of :

Mar 13:19  For those days shall be tribulation, such as there hath not been the like from the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never shall be.
Mar 13:20  And except the Lord had shortened the days, no flesh would have been saved; but for the elect's sake, whom he chose, he shortened the days.

as in:

Gen 45:5  And now be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither: for God did send me before you to preserve life.
Gen 45:6  For these two years hath the famine been in the land: and there are yet five years, in which there shall be neither plowing nor harvest.
Gen 45:7  And God sent me before you to preserve you a remnant in the earth, and to save you alive by a great deliverance.

As my footer declares for more then 3 years now I have reasons to believe ( almost every season 1 more is added ) that the start of Jacobs trouble is an apponted time, starting with a major, major solar eclipse as prophecied. ( see below )

[Soldier4Christ]

Hi BEP,

Thanks for your reply!

I can certainly appreciate where you are comming form on this issue.  I don't like it when people throw dirt in the faces of soldiers either, it's just not very polite; plus, when sand gets in your eyes!  yikes. that stings!

That's why I make a concerted effort not to do that, and focus my critique of the Iraq situation where I feel it belongs.  

I really don't think you're appreciating the difference here.  According to your logic, no-one should ever protest the use of military force, because to do so, would be some kind of insult to the men and women in uniform!  That just doesn't make any sense.

I'll restate my view on the matter.  I have the uttmost in respect for the men and women who are sacrificing daily, both in Iraq and Afghanistan.  The nation building work that they are currently undertaking is an important duty.  I do however wish, that they sent under more honest ospices.

cheers,

Jimmy

To make such statements is like saying "I support the troops, but I don't support what the troops are doing". You cannot separate the two. The Iraq situation is what the troops are and have been doing. Once our troops became involved it is time to put differences about the situation aside and give our troops full support. To do otherwise places doubt in the minds of the troops of what they are doing, it causes caos amongst them, it causes good Soldiers and Sailors to get killed. It gives the enemy courage to continue with what they are doing.

This is what happened in Viet Nam. North Viet Nam was about to give up but because of the protests in the U.S. they continued and many people were killed because of it.

[nChrist]

Hello Again TwoBombs,

I think that you might have misunderstood something I said about Israel. I simply know that the CHURCH which is the BODY of CHRIST is not Israel, but many Jews are saved and belong to the CHURCH. I also know that Daniel's Prophecy deals with Israel and Daniel knew nothing about the CHURCH which is the BODY OF CHRIST. It was a mystery not made known to Daniel. So, I think that a reasonable conclusion regards Daniel's 70 Weeks, including Jacob's Trouble, as referring to Israel, not the CHURCH. I'm fully aware that there are many varying opinions, but I don't think any Christian should allow differences of this type to cause division.

Regarding Mark 13, I believe that is referring to the people who are saved during the Tribulation Period.

Regarding brothers and sisters in Christ, there is no difference at all between Jews and and any other saved person. We are and will be one in Christ for eternity.

If you believe that God is through dealing with Israel, we definitely differ. Regardless, I appreciate your link, and I always enjoy studying your material on Bible Prophecy. I bookmarked it, but I'm too tired right now to enjoy it. Thanks.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Ephesians 1:10  [He planned] for the maturity of the times and the climax of the ages to unify all things and head them up and consummate them in Christ, [both] things in heaven and things on the earth. (The Amplified Bible)

[cris]

As I read through these posts many things came to mind; some probably belonging in a separate thread.  Feel free to move whatever to wherever.

I thought about our wonderful America being so very blessed by God.  Has any nation in recorded history ever been so blessed?  Why?  She was set upon a firm foundation, God.  Some may forget this, or dismiss it altogether, and that's too bad.  We really need to be mindful of it.  America has laid down her life, many times, for her brother.  Will all agree?  No, we won't.  What bothers me is that Christian's are supposed to have the mind of Christ.  If we have the mind of Christ, how can we disagree with one another?  Jesus and His Father were always in agreement.  Yes, they were One and the same, but aren't we supposed to be, also?  Or, won't we be until we live in eternity?  It reminds me of the verse, "when we see Him, we will be like Him."  I would suppose, since we are all learning and not unified yet, that it must be ok to disagree and still fellowship.  Could any of us possibly imagine any other way?  Surely, unity means agreement of minds, in all things, just like Jesus.  It doesn't look like that can ever happen on this earth, does it?

Now, for my other observation.  I'll address this to BEP.  Some months ago a poster came to CU.  One of his posts caused me to ask the following question:  If Christ is the head, and we, the Church, are His body, then how can the Head marry the body?"  It doesn't make sense to me. It sounds as if the marriage supper of the Lamb is Christ and Israel.  We, who are born again, already belong to Him.  Wouldn't the marriage supper of the Lamb be Jesus and His body, the Church, (being one already) to Israel?  It seems to make more sense to me but it may be because I've missed something.  What are your thoughts about what I said?

Also, regarding brothers and sisters in Christ, there is no difference between Jews and gentiles, races, nationalities, etc.  We are, or will be one in Christ, in and for, eternity.  However, there is a difference between the aforementioned, if they are not in Christ.  So, it seems as if there are two distinct groups...............the have and the have not's.  I realize that last phrase isn't usually used in this respect, but it's applicable here, don't you think?  One either has Christ or he doesn't.  No grey areas here. "Let your yes be yes and your no be no."  

Grace and peace,
cris

[Cottondale]

Thanks Tom,

My understanding of the Gospels compared with the time of the Exodus through the kings of Israel is that Jesus and His teachings presented a new commandment.  Israel rejected their Messiah.  The New Covenant was established with the Gentiles--one that will also become of force with Israel with the Coming of Christ future.  Since you and I and all saints belong no longer to a nation in spiritual reality by new birth and are citizens of the Kingdom of God in Heaven (this Paul establishes in Eph. and other epistles), we have a Governor who is the Lord Jesus in Heaven.  That Kingdom is not presently an arms kingdom but a spiritual one, "else [Jesus'] disciples would fight" as our Lord replied to Pilate.  Therefore, there is no instructions given to the Christian to join a government in arms against another government.  The world indeed does and always will fight each other till Jesus returns--then, at that time, there will be Absolute rule by Him with an Iron Rod against all opposers, just as your reference tell.  
     Do you see no distinction between God's way with the Church and His purpose and that of the Old Testament?  God warred against His foes through Israel.  Today God sends the Church to proclaim the Gospel.  Therein I do not find a place for the Saved to participate in any governments war as a soldier.  I would appreciate a doctrinal mandate or instruction concerning what justifies the Saint to become a soldier based upon the New Testament.  This is a touchy subject but one that every Christian must find God's truth concerning.   If I act as a Natural Man (i.e., unsaved) then I will not be a Christian according to the New Testament--saved by grace, yes, obedient to the New Testament call upon the saint in this world, no.  I simply find no direction for the saved person voluntarily becoming a soldier.  I find for myself that the NT does not permit me to become a soldier while I follow Christ and His Purpose in this world presently.  Others will disagree, but based upon what NT principle?  To follow Christ is not easy.  It is easy to receive His grace, for that costs me nothing.  To be a Christian is costly however.

[Soldier4Christ]

Hi Cottondale,

There is nowhere that we are commanded to be a Soldier other than a Soldier of Jesus Christ. Nor are we commanded to be a Janitor, a carpenter, an electrician, a Police Officer, Fireman, Store Clerk, a Box Boy or anything else of this nature. Nor does it command us not to do so.

In Luke chapter 3 Soldiers asked John what they should do. He did not tell them not to be a Soldier.




Col 3:17  And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.