ARE WOMEN ALLOWED TO SPEAK IN CHURCH?

[Reba]

Tom Wrote:
 Brother Larry,
"The comment given appears to be fairly simple and considerate. Sarcasm is not a part of the Holy Bible, and that's all that was said. The portion of Scripture you quoted involves Paul admonishing the Corinthians and telling them how to restore peace and order in their services. Paul addressed numerous issues. I do hope that you enjoy Christians Unite. We do have a large number of sweet Christians here."

Dear Tom,
I am wondering what version of the Bible you are reading? Mine is full of people with charater deficiencies all the way through from one cover to the other. That is what makes it so believable - it doesen't reek of embellishment. St. Paul was a sarcastc hothead, who was often at odds with his fellow disciples.

Is murder a part of the Holy Bible? How about Adultry? Have you heard of a Bible character named David? Sorry, I don't follow your logic at all on this.

One of the major problems with people reading the Bible is they try to understand these ancient documents with a 21st century western mind - It doesent work in a lot of cases. Often these opinions are no where near reality in the face of the historical facts. There is no greater example of this than the modern dispensational view of eschatology - it is absurd the unrestrained freedom and liberties that people take with the book of Revelation.

Larry

   

Codger,
  Keep posting  some times it takes a while for folks to understand each other.

I can hear sarcasim in the writings of Paul and verbal abuse ( well disierved) in the very words of Jesus. I do believe the Jewish way of explaining things lends to sarcasim. Don't ya just wish sometimes you could set under the teaching of Paul knowing the language and all that stuff. A summer of teaching from a Rabbi was great fun...

Most folks here are pleasent and many will share different bibical views with out comdemnation. Just as in any group we have or ups and downs.

Codger,
Tom (blackeyedpeas, Mr. Bepster), what ever nick or name, is a very good moderator. Give yourself some time this is mostly a nice place.

 

[Bronzesnake]

hello Reba, I noticed you left out my name on your list of "good moderators"  

Did you check the message I sent you via private message?

[Tibby]

Sorry Tom and Bronzy, I have to stand with Larry and Reda o this. Sarcasm is a part of the Holy Bible. Hyperboles, metaphores, irony, satire, all of it is a part of the Bible.

[Bronzesnake]

Sorry Tom and Bronzy, I have to stand with Larry and Reda o this. Sarcasm is a part of the Holy Bible. Hyperboles, metaphores, irony, satire, all of it is a part of the Bible.

 I can't believe this has to be explained...

When I said sarcasm was not part of the Holy Bible, I didn't think I'd have to elaborate that I was speaking of Christ's disciples and His chosen ministers. There is obviously all those evil, negative things throughout the entire Bible. However, whenever men such as David fell short and indulged in such Godless acts, they suffered the consequences for it. God makes examples of such disobedience throughout the entire Bible. Lot's wife disobeyed God, look what happened to her, Adam and Eve disobeyed God, we all know what happened after that. God doesn't reward disobedience. Paul was somewhat hot headed, there's no denying that, but he was not sarcastic.

  Paul was known to criticize or rebuke people, but Jesus also did that. Criticism does not rise to the level of sarcasm - sarcasm is used to intentionally wound people.

 There are definitely dark elements in the Bible - yes, all the things you listed. However, sarcasm was not a tactic of Paul's ministry. How could anyone take him seriously if he was sarcastic? Why would he be revered if he was sarcastic?

 Please point out some of Paul's sarcasm. It's not enough to simply say "Paul was sarcastic" and leave it at that. Give examples of this sarcasm. Is sarcasm an attribute of Jesus?

Paul is a very important teacher in the New Testament. He brought the Lord to Gentiles. Jesus personally selected Paul and miraculously changed Paul's life in order to fulfill His mission. Paul was not sarcastic!

 I am at times sarcastic, it's one of my major faults, and I struggle with it. I admit this. Paul was physically, up close and personally touched by Almighty God - Jesus Christ. Paul suffered tremendously while never bending or conceding even an inch to his tormentors. he went to his death because he was obedient to Jesus.

 You people need to get a grip on this one.

 I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and conclude that you were not familiar with the difference between sarcasm and criticism.

[Soldier4Christ]

Voice inflection is a major component of sarcasm. Since we cannot hear this when we read the Bible it can be hard to discern whether there was intended sarcasm or not.

The example given, 1Cor 14:36 is one of those that might be seen in that manner. Paul was not perfect, he was flesh just as we are and very capable of sinning. As was said before in this thread the Holy Spirit was in him quite strongly and spoke through him when he preached or gave directions to the church.

If we look at Pauls overall preaching methods we do not see even a hint of sarcasim anywhere else. In 1Cor 14:36 he was simply asking questions of these people that was a form of chastising in the same manner that Jesus used. One of these examples can be found in:

Mat 11:7  And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind?

Was Jesus also sarcastic?  

There is one verse here that was referenced yet nothing was said about it.

1Co 14:38  But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.


As to women speaking in the church ....

Yes, Paul used several very Godly women to assist him in doing Gods work. God used women throughout the Bible to do his work.

If we put this in with the other portions of scripture in the Bible we then see what positions and manners of service that women are to have in the church.

[cris]

1 Cor. 14-38

But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

Matthew Henry says the following:

"It is just of God to leave those to the blindness of their own minds who willfully shut out the light.  Those who would be ignorant in so plain a case were justly left under the power (italics emphasis, mine) of their mistake".

[Tibby]

It isn't hard to believe it has to be explaiend at all, Bronzy. When you are wrong to start with, and you don't explain an incorrect statement, there are bound to be a lot of people who don't have a clue what you are talking about. When you said "sarcasm was not part of the Holy Bible" we assumed you meant that sarcasm was not part of the Holy Bible. Silly us, uh? We are not mind readers, Bronzy. Try not to make such a generalized statement next time. The Holy Bible may only mean a few of the NT books to you, but the rest of us consider it to be the WHOLE Bible, OT and NT.

And why do you speak of sarcasm as if it where a bad thing? Should me a single statement in the Bible or extra-biblical teaching of the Church Fathes (I'm tryign to make this easier on you) that would even imply that sarcasm is in something a Godly man would use!

[nChrist]

[Reba]

SHhh

[Bronzesnake]

It isn't hard to believe it has to be explaiend at all, Bronzy. When you are wrong to start with, and you don't explain an incorrect statement, there are bound to be a lot of people who don't have a clue what you are talking about. When you said "sarcasm was not part of the Holy Bible" we assumed you meant that sarcasm was not part of the Holy Bible. Silly us, uh? We are not mind readers, Bronzy. Try not to make such a generalized statement next time. The Holy Bible may only mean a few of the NT books to you, but the rest of us consider it to be the WHOLE Bible, OT and NT.

And why do you speak of sarcasm as if it where a bad thing? Should me a single statement in the Bible or extra-biblical teaching of the Church Fathes (I'm tryign to make this easier on you) that would even imply that sarcasm is in something a Godly man would use!

 First of all I'm not wrong. You are  

Secondly, taken in context with the statement I was responding to you should have got it. Tom and Pastor Roger had no trouble with it.
Third, no one has shown me any examples of this sarcasm, which Paul is supposed to have used.

 Here's another thing. You say "we" and "us" are you the spokesperson for others?

And why do you speak of sarcasm as if it where a bad thing? Should me a single statement in the Bible or extra-biblical teaching of the Church Fathes (I'm tryign to make this easier on you)

"Should me a single statement in the Bible?? The Church Fathes? I’m trygn to make this easier on you?? Maybe you should try and make it easier on yourself my tongue twisted friend  

 Finally, you don't know what sarcasm means if you believe "sarcasm is in something a Godly man would use!"

A cutting, often ironic remark intended to wound.
A form of wit that is marked by the use of sarcastic language and is intended to make its victim the butt of contempt or ridicule.
The use of sarcasm. See Synonyms at wit1.

 sarcasm

n : witty language used to convey insults or scorn; "he used sarcasm to upset his opponent"; "irony is wasted on the stupid"; "Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own"--Johathan Swift [syn: irony, satire, caustic remark]

You may notice my tone is a bit rough Tibby, but some of the "sarcastic" statements you made including this..

The Holy Bible may only mean a few of the NT books to you, but the rest of us consider it to be the WHOLE Bible, OT and NT

Really highlights my point that sarcasm is not a teaching method, which can be implemented with any positive effect. As a matter of fact, it gets people a wee bit steamed at times.
I'm not in good health at the moment, so my temper is shorter than usual. To be honest with you, I'm getting sick and tired of being constantly attacked by my fellow "Christians"

I'm striking back a wee bit here, but believe me I am taking it easy on you.

There are other Christians here who I have offended in the past. I actually apologized even though there was plenty of blame for both parties, but instead of forgiveness I get snide comments, and childish remarks. That's not what Christianity is all about friends, we're supposed to be forgiving, and we're supposed to accept our fair share of blame when there's a problem. Some of us think we are too special to go that route.

 I think I'll leave this forum for a while, and take some time to heal and cool down.

 God bless you my brothers and sisters.

[nChrist]

Brothers and Sisters,

God's WORD is sharper than any two-edged sword, and it cuts everyone who reads it, the saved and the unsaved. However, it does not use twisted wit or humor to instruct, neither is it a comedy. The Holy Bible wasn't written to entertain or harm. It is the most serious book ever written, and it is THE WORD OF GOD. This reason alone should be enough for any Christian to give this precious book the reverence and respect it deserves.

I would think that the above should be a given, but it evidently isn't with some. I would hope this post is simply food for thought. It certainly isn't my intention to debate this issue, and I won't. I'll simply say this is sad and leave it at that. If anyone wishes to debate this further, I would simply ask that respect and reverence be given to God's Word.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 8:38-39 For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

[Tibby]

First of all I'm not wrong. You are  

Secondly, taken in context with the statement I was responding to you should have got it. Tom and Pastor Roger had no trouble with it.
Third, no one has shown me any examples of this sarcasm, which Paul is supposed to have used.

I think you need to read it in context again, then.

Here's another thing. You say "we" and "us" are you the spokesperson for others?

It is called plural first person voice, and it is fun to use.

And why do you speak of sarcasm as if it where a bad thing? Should me a single statement in the Bible or extra-biblical teaching of the Church Fathes (I'm tryign to make this easier on you)

"Should me a single statement in the Bible?? The Church Fathes? I’m trygn to make this easier on you?? Maybe you should try and make it easier on yourself my tongue twisted friend  

 Finally, you don't know what sarcasm means if you believe "sarcasm is in something a Godly man would use!"

A cutting, often ironic remark intended to wound.
A form of wit that is marked by the use of sarcastic language and is intended to make its victim the butt of contempt or ridicule.
The use of sarcasm. See Synonyms at wit1.

 sarcasm

n : witty language used to convey insults or scorn; "he used sarcasm to upset his opponent"; "irony is wasted on the stupid"; "Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own"--Johathan Swift [syn: irony, satire, caustic remark]

You may notice my tone is a bit rough Tibby, but some of the "sarcastic" statements you made including this..

The Holy Bible may only mean a few of the NT books to you, but the rest of us consider it to be the WHOLE Bible, OT and NT

Really highlights my point that sarcasm is not a teaching method, which can be implemented with any positive effect. As a matter of fact, it gets people a wee bit steamed at times.
I'm not in good health at the moment, so my temper is shorter than usual. To be honest with you, I'm getting sick and tired of being constantly attacked by my fellow "Christians"

So, you are saying godly men to not get a little heated with their language? Oh really? I think I will let the bible make my case for me. In fact, I'm not even going to leave the book of Matthew to find examples of "witty language used to convey insults or scorn"

Matthew 8:22- What is this but sarcasm? Surely Jesus was not pushing for people to use Zombies and Undertakers? Surely he was not saying let the bodies just pile up where they fall.

Matthew 11:18-19- Is that Irony I detect?

Matthew 23- This is the Main event, right here, the verse you've all been waiting for! I started off listing different verses with harsh words, but I stopped when I realised almost every other verse was a verbal attack used by Jesus. He called Pharisees fools, hypocrites, wicked, and even snakes! Spitefully? Oh yeah! Povastive teaching method, nope, but it sure got its point across.


 

I'm striking back a wee bit here, but believe me I am taking it easy on you.

There are other Christians here who I have offended in the past. I actually apologized even though there was plenty of blame for both parties, but instead of forgiveness I get snide comments, and childish remarks. That's not what Christianity is all about friends, we're supposed to be forgiving, and we're supposed to accept our fair share of blame when there's a problem. Some of us think we are too special to go that route.

I do nto see where this ties into use. I do not recall any time where you offended me, apologized for it, or got a snide comment in return to your goodwill from me.

Is there a problem? I guess so. When you seem to taking years worth of abuse out on one person in an internet forum, I think we do have a problem.

I think I'll leave this forum for a while, and take some time to heal and cool down.

Tried that and it was here waiting for me when I came back. 90% of my friends (and enemies) had  left, but it was still here,  The problem in not the people of the forum, it is the topics. Religion is a touchy subject, a subject that even people without a religion (e.i. atheist) get worked up about. People hijack planes and crash them into buildings over religion. People start wars over religion. People die just to get there point heard. I think it only show that we as a race have a long way to go.

However, I believe I may do that same. Again.

[Soldier4Christ]

I'll simply say this is sad and leave it at that.

Amen, Beps.

Jesus would not use comedy or humor in order to chastise someone, therefore His words could not and should not be considered sarcasm.

[jgarden]

"It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill.  The latter do so out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the Gospel.  The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they stir up trouble for me while I am in chains.  But what does it matter?  The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preasched.  (Ephesians 6:15-18)

envy

rivalry

selfish ambition

not sincerely

stirring up trouble

false motives

Would it be preferable for men with these characteristics to lead the Church, while more competent women who would preach out of love, goodwill and in defense of the Bible are relegated to secondary positions.  Does gender take priority over one's relationship with God - apparently in some churches it does!

[Bronzesnake]

"It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill.  The latter do so out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the Gospel.  The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they stir up trouble for me while I am in chains.  But what does it matter?  The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preasched.  (Ephesians 6:15-18)

envy

rivalry

selfish ambition

not sincerely

stirring up trouble

false motives

Would it be preferable for men with these characteristics to lead the Church, while more competent women who would preach out of love, goodwill and in defense of the Bible are relegated to secondary positions.  Does gender take priority over one's relationship with God - apparently in some churches it does!

It matters a lot my friend.
Paul was a great man who sacrificed much in order to live a Christ-like life. Paul was murdered for his faith. So when people go around saying he was sarcastic, it really undermines his whole ministry, and makes a mockery of Jesus Christ.

 What would a person who is searching for Truth think when a supposedly mature Christian tells him that the great ministers of Jesus Christ were a bunch of sarcastic hotheads, and these men are supposed to be Christ-like? This is the kind of attitude being taken up by the Islamic clerics.

If I were looking for the True God and I thought Christianity was taught by such men as that, I would turn and run in the opposite direction.

 Notice that the person who began this thread has not given a single example of this supposed sarcasm? The person who began this thread conveniently disappeared. Makes you
wonder what his motives were in starting such a thread.