I Believe Most Of “Christianity” Today Is Lost

[Reba]

Some folks who cant ever find a home church couldn't get along in any group of people.


Jesus Christ  said He would build His church is His act of building failing? NOPE  He does not fail..  We people have a hard time seeing the whole picture.

Some folks want thte pastor to do EVERYTHING some folks want to be the pastor doing everything... The most vocal lady in one of Dads chruches always had ideas and ways of  DOING but never showed up for the  'work' part. Churches are made up of US   you and me  lots of yous and mes and guess what we are all goofy in one way or another.  

The local church has a bibical background the gethering together was importiant to God. Check the OT and see how many times He gathtered them together.

There art some folks out there that are working to distroy the local churches Hearld Camping and his buddies are the first that come to mind.  The tithe that they can rake....

We are just goofy people  We must rely on Christ  trust Him to His Word and trust He is building His church  just as HE said He would.


1 Peter 2:5-6
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
KJV

Eph 2:19-22

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
KJV

[Evangelist]

Wide is the path that leadeth to destruction...narrow is the way that leadeth to eternal life.

Many shall enter in (the building), but few will find the door (to life).

Sad to say that, based on a lotta years of going to various churches throughout the country, that I have to agree with AV and Billy Graham both.

Billy once said that he is of the opinion that only about 10% of the visible church members are actually born again.

Why? For all the reasons denominated above, but mostly because the Word of God is no longer considered HIS Word...instead it has become a collection of folk tales written by a group of men involved in a giant conspiracy, and so it is subject to individual interpretation and application. Use it if you like it, ignore it if you don't, or better yet....change it to mean what you want it to mean.

Interesting survey conducted in '02 of the church world in England.
Only 65% believe that Jesus died for our sins.
Only 53% believe that Jesus was God.
Only 38% believe that Jesus is the ONLY way to heaven.
Only 26% believe that the Bible is God's Word.

And that's among the pastors.

 

[M]

So is the question "What should we do if our church is becoming too fluffy?"

If a church has tonnes of programs and groups but no prayer meetings and no Bible studies, then it is fluffy.  

When someone wants to start a Bible study there never seems to be a qualified teacher.  The pastors are too busy.  No one else wants to give up any of their budget.  So nothing gets started.  

So this is what I did.  I complained that my church had no Bible study and no prayer meeting.  No one wanted to lead it.  I told the church I would do it.  So I got permission to lead a Bible study for 4 weeks.  I was given no budget at all.  It was so terrible and people complained so much.  People wanted it so they set up another Bible study.  This time with a "qualified teacher" (someone who went to Bible college).  It was terrible and people complained because they had to pay for the books the teacher choose  (which were fluffy).  Different approaches were tried and some success followed.  Several years later we now have two Bible study groups and an evening prayer meeting.  Attendance isn't huge but steady.  

Churches need to make sure that some budget is allotted to Bible study and prayer meeting.  By budget I mean: money, church facilities, time and pastor time.  Even if volunteers run the Bible study and prayer meeting, they will need training and support (all out of the budgets).  If the church people think that Bible study and prayer was important, it would be reflected in their annual budget report.  

[MalkyEL]

AV - from your op:
Bottom line - I believe most of Christianity today is made up of unregenerate folks.  Because of the above we are living in the most carnal, weak, fleshly, worldly, unfruitful period of Christianity that there ever has been.  If you do not believe the above then one of two things is possible:
1. You are unregenerate.
2. You are regenerate but your standard of judgment is today’s “Christianity”.

AV [FEb 14]
What I was trying to say is that one should not stay out of church completely.  One can find a church somewhere that comes close to what they feel conscience would allow - we all know no local church is perfect - but I firmly believe God's method of ministering to believers is primarily through a local church.

What I was saying is we shouldn't let issues keep us out of a local church compeltely - especially if the issues are petty.

Of course the scriptures should be our authority on doctrinal matters.  Find one that is close - be patient - show forebearance and longsufferance and jump in and get to work!  


AV response to my post:
Thanks MalkyEL for your response and kind words - you mentioneed that I backed down later on - Im open to chat here - would you be so kind as to explain so I might get a chance to clarify.  I do agree with your post and we may be saying the same thing.

Nana:
I was referring to the other post in which you made the comment about finding one that's close.

Perhaps I am too much of a purist.  I spent too much time in the middle of politics and social activity and programs to edify the church goer, instead of reaching out.

My view of the body of Messiah is not the standard position of attending the brick building to either edify one-self or to be taught.  I do not believe the church today teaches.  It does not equip.  I am not amused sitting in the pew hearing teaching that does not equip me to stand.  Or being entertained.  Or by coersion to tithe.  Or by being judged because I am divorced.  Or by exclusion because I do not participate in church activities.

These things are not contending for the faith.   It is milk designed to keep the church attenders captive to a system that does not resemble the early church at all.

Sorry to sound negative.  I hear what you all are saying.  Being wounded by the establishment does not bear any weight on my perception of the church.  I simply shrugged it off and walked away.  No one is really interested in change.  This is why I liked your op. That is the bottom line - not sticking around picking through garbage to find the Truth - or something "close".

What God has called us to do is not waste time hanging around church.  The point of the "assembly" was to equip workers to go out and reach the lost, needy and hurting.  Breaking bread together was a simple meal where people shared their needs, that were taken care of immediately, equipping was done by intense study and prayer, and then all went to the Temple to witness and testify to the Good News of Jesus Christ.

There was no paid pastor, no choir, no sunday school, no pews, no tithing, no church meetings and budgets.

Of course I have shot myself in the foot with my hard stand.  I am in a ministry of one with zero support.  So my time is spent serving as God has called me.  Without the church, who really doesn't give a rip about me or what I do.  Does that sound like sour grapes?  Perhaps to you - for me it is simply the truth, the cold hard facts of life.  Jesus said it would not be easy.  We are not on a gravy train.  If we are His, we will suffer for what we do.  What I did not understand, is that we would suffer the most from the church itself.

shalom, nana

[MalkyEL]

Reba wrote:
We are just goofy people  We must rely on Christ  trust Him to His Word and trust He is building His church  just as HE said He would.


1 Peter 2:5-6
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
KJV

Eph 2:19-22

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
KJV

nana:
Thanx, Reba, for posting some wonderful scripts.  

If I may opinionated here - I believe those marvelous words of Paul were meant as a spiritual application. They do not refer to a literal building.  

The true body of Messiah crosses all denominational borders.  It has nothing to do with who goes to church on Sunday, but that group of world wide believers who are serving, loving, and communicating with God in a relationship that cannot be defined by a building or a literal group of people.

Since I have left the established church, I have found the most incredible believers online.  Many do not attend church either, but study and worship online and equip, support, and counsel each other in their area of serving in which God has called them to.

The beauty is the unity of Spirit - that building of the temple of God - a spiritual reality - are we not all the temple of the Holy Spirit?  There are no social events to get in the way.  No preacher to pay, no building fund, no programs, no "collections" just intense study of God's Word to keep that strong foundation and to be armed with God's armor.

The world is a mess.  They don't need church.  They need Jesus.  They need you and me one-on-one to be His hands and feet.

shalom, nana

[cris]

MalkyEL,

Just finished reading your last two posts here, and I have to say there's much wisdom in what you said.

I can relate very much to your experiences with the church building and people.  I was beginning to feel I was the only one who felt this way, until I read your posts.

You're correct-------the world is a mess; they don't need church (at least, not the ones you and I have experienced); they need Jesus.  Yes, we are His hands and feet.  Wow, what a job we have.  I started a new thread, barrel of apples in the you name it section.  Read it, if you want. This situation should never have been allowed to go on for so many years.  It's the result of no one caring enough to do anything except offer some suggestions.  It's as bad as seeing one laying half dead in the street, and telling them you'll be praying for them, and then walk away.  There are lots of hardened hearts in some of the churches.  It's very sad.

Thanks for those posts.

Grace and peace,
cris

     
   

[MalkyEL]

Thanx, Cris, for the words of affirmation.  I just got this in my mail box - it made me smile cause it was so timely.  God does provide in the most unusual ways at times  

Good For Us
by Chip Brogden

http://www.watchman.net/articles/good.html

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

"I will build My Church" (Matthew 16:18ff).

 We cannot build the Church, for Jesus is building it. Similarly, we cannot assemble ourselves together; the Lord has to do that as well. I am not saying we cannot have a meeting, but I am saying that a meeting is not what makes us the Church. There are many such meetings we can host or attend, but that does not make us the Church. People frequently ask me if I know where they can go to find fellowship. After examining them at length I determine that what they are really looking for is a meeting. Well, meetings are everywhere. You do not need me for that. I am afraid that I cannot recommend "meetings", I can only recommend brothers and sisters who love the Lord.

Now the Lord wants to assemble us together into a spiritual Temple, but if we look around it is clear that we are divided over several issues. We could go down the list and name them all. We could take time to talk about denominations, organizations, doctrines, beliefs, customs, and the like. We could draw up a list of one hundred or one thousand divisions, but the heart of the matter is this: have we seen the Lord? If we have seen the Lord then we do not need to see anything else: this revelation of Him is sufficient. And, if we have not seen the Lord, it is a waste of time to try and discuss anything else along the lines of doctrine or teaching.

[cris]

MalkyEL,

Thanks--------Chip spoke the truth.  Wonder how many grasp what he's really saying?  I hope I do!  I believe he's talking about a personal relationship with Jesus, first and foremost, but then, he's saying if we don't see Jesus in our siblings, then we haven't seen Him at all.

Grace and peace,
cris

 

[Mrs.Chosen]

Hear what I have to say and it's short.
I would not use the word lost about our brothers and sisters because if they have the TRUE JESUS they have been found.
Now if they are professing Jesus but He is not the True Living GOD then it's not Christianity. So therefore they are not lost Christians they are just lost.
Now there are alot of Christians they are ignorant to alot of teachings but the are not lost. They are just ignorant. GOD wants us to learn about Him yes but if we just believe in Him then we are not lost.
i believe there were slaves that could not read (Because the were killed or beaten if they tried to) that believed in Him and were saved yet knowledge they did not have.
Now I'm not one of these that have not moved futher to grow in wisdom. I have taken Bibical classes and am presently in school. But I just think we should know lost means lost.
I agree that we as Christians should never stop trying to learn more and more about GOD. Makes this life better to go through. But some of these people that you claim to be lost Christians are more than likely not Christians at all.

[Mrs.Chosen]

Futhermore,
The Bible people were like us today.
There were so many that was with GOD yet did things that were unthinkable.
Think of David a man after GOD's own heart.

Think of Peter, denying Christ when he was rolling with HIM day in and day out!

They were still of good character and GOD still blessed.
So just because we see alot of not so die hard Christians don't mean the #'s are not big. We would have to travel forever. And besides only GOD sees hearts. Knowlege is not as important than a heart to GOD.
But I love to learn!!!

[Evangelist]

Jud 1:3
Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.(4) For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Crept in to where?

The church.

[cris]

Jude:1:3 (partial)

"who were of old ordained to this condemnation"



 What does this mean?


Grace and peace,
cris

 

[MalkyEL]

cris wrote:

Jude:1:3 (partial)

"who were of old ordained to this condemnation"

What does this mean?

nana:
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction;

Matt 7:15 ¶ Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

1 Timothy 4
1 ¶ But the Spirit expressly says that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and teachings of demons,
2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, being seared in their own conscience,

2Thess 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already working, only he is now holding back until it comes out of the midst.
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the breath of His mouth and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming,
9 whose coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 and with all deceit of unrighteousness in those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, so that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie,
12 so that all those who do not believe the truth, but delight in unrighteousness, might be condemned.

[cris]

cris wrote:

Jude:1:3 (partial)

"who were of old ordained to this condemnation"

What does this mean?

nana:
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction;

Matt 7:15 ¶ Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

1 Timothy 4
1 ¶ But the Spirit expressly says that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and teachings of demons,
2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, being seared in their own conscience,

2Thess 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already working, only he is now holding back until it comes out of the midst.
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the breath of His mouth and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming,
9 whose coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 and with all deceit of unrighteousness in those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, so that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie,
12 so that all those who do not believe the truth, but delight in unrighteousness, might be condemned.

Jude:1:3------I just partially quoted Evangelist's version and impulsively asked what it meant.

Here's the NAS version:

Jude:1:3 ( mine says Jude 4)
For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus.

Now if someone could put it in their words what "those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation" means.

To me, it's sounds as if it's a part of the predestination theology, some were born to die and go to hell, and some were born chosen to go to heaven.  I really hope I'm wrong.  

Grace and peace,
cris

[felix102]

There is a universal Church which consists of all believers in Christ and a local church.

The universal Church is the body of Christ and that which is being built up. This is the bride of Christ.


Gen 2:21-22
"And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, He built up a woman, and brought her unto the man."


As Christ's side was pierced of where water and blood flowed (signifying life and redemption); there came His bride made of an unbreakable rib. And it is now being built up until the bride and bridegroom become one.