The Gospel of the Kingdom of God

[nChrist]

Brother Ollie,

You asked an excellent question, one that causes tremendous confusion for hosts of people trying to study the Holy Bible.

The Kingdom of God and Christ are absolute reality. I belong to that Kingdom, and I am a member of the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST. The Kingdom of God and Christ lives in my heart, and my citizenship is in Heaven with CHRIST.

Brother, there will be a physical 1,000 year rule of Christ on earth, and this should not be confused with the Kingdom of God or Christ. The Kingdom of God or Christ is already absolute reality. The 1,000 year rule of Christ on earth from the Throne of David is yet to come. This period of time is called the Millennial Kingdom, and the appointed time for it is after the Tribulation Period. This is a promise of God and is revealed in Bible prophecy. It will most definitely be fulfilled at God's appointed time.

There are a host of precious Scriptures that foretell of the Millennial Kingdom, but our Lord and Saviour is real RIGHT NOW! I don't count the Millennial Kingdom as part of my hope and joy in Christ, specifically because I already belong to Jesus and Jesus is in my heart. The reality of the Kingdom of God is absolute, RIGHT NOW! The reality of the Millennial Kingdom is yet to happen, but it will most certainly happen, just as the Holy Bible proclaims it.

Brother, I hope this helps some. This is certainly a topic that confuses many people. I would quickly proclaim that Jesus Christ is already the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords. This is already ABSOLUTE REALITY for all Christians. There will come a day when our Lord and Saviour will physically rule and reign over the earth from the Throne of David, and every knee will bow to HIM. That time has not arrived yet.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[Silver Surfer]

Believer today are not under the Law. However, it appears that  by your beliefs, all believer today will go into a kingdom here upon the earth. That would put them back under the Law.

Todays believers keep all 10 commandments, therefore are not under the Law:
"Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus". (Revelation 14:12).

God's true saints, are Christians that understand, that to be under the Law means, to break any one of the 10 commandments, (Romans 3:19).

[TrevorL]

Howdy BigD,

Greetings again. BigD wrote:

"I will repeat - "If we go into an earthly kingdom on earth, what would Paul's position be?" Also, I was looking forward to more response to my last postings.."

I apologise for not answering all your statements. Time is a factor, and I will start with this latest. My main aim was to establish that there is, and always has been only one gospel of the kingdom and name of Jesus Christ, and only one hope. I believe Paul was waiting for Christ to return to establish his 1000 year reign on earth, God's heavenly kingdom on earth, heavenly because the source of this kingdom is from heaven, not located in heaven.
BigD wrote:

"As we know, Jesus is presently in heaven sitting at the right hand of God the Father. We also know that Paul was taken up to the third heaven (2Cor12:2) and saw thing that he was unable to discribe. In 5:6 Paul says: "whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:", and in vs 8 says: "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and be present with the Lord."
Paul is not looking for an earthly home.."

2 Timothy 4:1 (KJV): "1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;"
2 Timothy 4:6-8 (KJV): "6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.:"
Yes, here at the end of his life he is ready to depart and be with Jesus. Paul's next conscious moment will be in the presence of the Lord, when Christ returns. What he anticipates is the return of Jesus to judge him, and because Jesus is a righteous judge he is confident that Christ will reward him and welcome him into his kingdom together with all those that love his appearing.

The expression "new heaven and new earth" speaks of a progression from an existing heaven and earth to another, and this appears to be the numbering system, not three different heavens above, but I cannot prove this. The third heaven could be after the 1000 years, but I am not willing to demand that others agree. We have little information of this period when there is no sin and death and God is all in all, and I believe that Paul was given this special vison to sustain him in the abundance of his trials.

Starting on your earlier two replies. BigD wrote:

"These earthly things are only temporal. My heavenly blessings are permanent. I will receive them when I am raptured to heaven."

We can be heavely minded now and in God's kingdom on earth. I do not believe in the rapture.
BigD wrote:

"2Cor5 does not state anything about how our bodies will appear. However, it says that we believer will have a home "eternal in the heavens." "

No, it says we already have a house or building there, which speaks of the life of immortality that Christ will bring and will clothe us with when he returns, that is the resurrection, "that mortality may be swallowed up of life" v4.
BigD wrote:

""the clouds" and "the air" are figurative language of what? "

The clouds are a symbol of the ruling class over the earth during the 1000 years, they are the new heaven, while the mortal subjects of the kingdom will be the new earth. These clouds in the air of the kingdom reflect the light of the Sun of righteousness during the 1000 years, having been drawn out of the sea of nations during the previous eras of Jews and Gentiles.
BigD wrote:

"Nowhere in Galatians 3:16 do I see Paul quoting directly from the land promises in Genesis 13:14-15. You are somehow reading that into it, or it was omitted from my KJV of the Bible. I am not denying that Abram was not given a land promise, I am saying that the land promises are not the subject in all of Galatians 3. It has to do with the gift of the Spirit and the Law."

Yes, there is a larger context in Galatians 3, but the land promise is the one hope of all believers including Abraham and all his true descendants, concentred in Christ, and this includes Paul and the Gentile Galatians. Christ is "the seed" of Genesis 13:14-15 as he is the centre of all the promises to Abraham as Paul states in Galatians 3:16. Galatians 3:26-29 then shows that all the accepted believers will inherit the promise of the land, as well as all the Abrahamic promises. They will receive or fulfil the Edenic promises, all of the Abrahamic promises, the Davidic promises and will be immortal. There was never two ways to two different hopes of salvation. The whole book of Galatians is Paul's exposition that there is and has always ever been only one method of salvation, through faith not Law. Even when the Law was in force, only those of faith will be saved. Every revival in Israel was a faith revival, usually outside of the Law in some aspects, eg David and Hezekiah. To talk all the glorified believers coming under the Law in the Age to Come when they will be immortal and sinless is irrelevant and wrong. Isaiah 2:1-4 speaks of the law and word of God going forth to the nations, but this will proceed from these immortal believers and Christ.

Incidently hoping not to add too much, how do you read "heavenly" in the following concerning Abraham? Will Abraham receive the promise of the land?
Hebrews 11:10, 16 (KJV): "10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city."

Howdy Silver Surfer, I do not keep the Sabbath as it was kept under the Law of Moses, but believe that Jesus is the true rest Matthew 11:28-30, and the 1000 years is also another aspect of the true rest Hebrews 4.

Kind regards
Trevor

[BigD]

Believer today are not under the Law. However, it appears that  by your beliefs, all believer today will go into a kingdom here upon the earth. That would put them back under the Law.

Todays believers keep all 10 commandments, therefore are not under the Law:

"Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus". (Revelation 14:12).

God's true saints, are Christians that understand, that to be under the Law means, to break any one of the 10 commandments, (Romans 3:19).

BigD responds:
Silver Surfer, I really don't understand just what you are trying to say.

Today, the believer is not under the Law but under Grace, and free from the Law. However, I will say this. When one studies Paul's epistles, he teaches all the precepts of the 10 commandments with the exception of the keeping of the Sabbath Day.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

[BigD]

 BigD wrote:

"I will repeat - "If we go into an earthly kingdom on earth, what would Paul's position be?" Also, I was looking forward to more response to my last postings.."

Trevor responded:

I apologise for not answering all your statements. Time is a factor, and I will start with this latest. My main aim was to establish that there is, and always has been only one gospel of the kingdom and name of Jesus Christ, and only one hope. I believe Paul was waiting for Christ to return to establish his 1000 year reign on earth, God's heavenly kingdom on earth, heavenly because the source of this kingdom is from heaven, not located in heaven.

BigD replies:
Then you are saying "eternal in the heavens" is on earth.

All of God's creation is His kingdom. There is a kingdom literally "in heaven", "of heaven", (upon the earth), and a "kingdom under the earth." Members of the Body of Christ, the Church for today, will be literally "in heaven", while the kingdom saints will be in the kingdom "of heaven here upon the earth. Those in the kingdom '\"under the earth" will be in hell.

You are telling me what you believe, but you are not supporting it from Scripture.
 
When Christ comes to establish His kingdom upon the earth, I cannot find anywhere in the Bible that says that the kingdom saints will "rule and reign" with Christ upon the earth. The earthly kingdom saints will be judged by the 12 disciples who will be sitting on 12 thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel (Matt 19:28).

In 2Tim 2:11, 12 we read: "It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: If we suffer with him, we shall also reign with him..."  This surely won't be upon the earth.


BigD wrote:

"As we know, Jesus is presently in heaven sitting at the right hand of God the Father. We also know that Paul was taken up to the third heaven (2Cor12:2) and saw thing that he was unable to discribe. In 5:6 Paul says: "whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:", and in vs 8 says: "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and be present with the Lord."
Paul is not looking for an earthly home.."

Trevor responded:

2 Timothy 4:1 (KJV): "1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;"
2 Timothy 4:6-8 (KJV): "6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.:"

Yes, here at the end of his life he is ready to depart and be with Jesus. Paul's next conscious moment will be in the presence of the Lord, when Christ returns. What he anticipates is the return of Jesus to judge him, and because Jesus is a righteous judge he is confident that Christ will reward him and welcome him into his kingdom together with all those that love his appearing.

The expression "new heaven and new earth" speaks of a progression from an existing heaven and earth to another, and this appears to be the numbering system, not three different heavens above, but I cannot prove this. The third heaven could be after the 1000 years, but I am not willing to demand that others agree. We have little information of this period when there is no sin and death and God is all in all, and I believe that Paul was given this special vison to sustain him in the abundance of his trials.

BigD replies:
In 2 Timothy 4:1 I do believe that Paul is speaking here of the rapture that will occure at the end of this dispensation of grace. All believers (quick [living] or dead) will be caught up in the clouds to ever be with the Lord in heaven. There they will stand before the Judgment seat of Christ and be judged according to their works, and be rewarded accordingly (see 1Cor3:8-15). The believers will be in the kingdom "in heaven", where they will rule and reign with Christ. Paul says in 1Corinthians 6:3 "Know ye not that we shall judge angels?" That is a really good indication to me that we will be reigning with Christ "in heaven."

In 2 Timothey 4:6-8, Paul is looking forward to the rapture.

At the end of the 1,000 year reign of Christ upon the earth, there will be a new heaven and a new earth. The Body of Christ will reign with Christ in the heavenlies (Eph 2:6,7), and Israel and those redeemed under God's prophetic Program will reign with Christ from the New Jerusalem on the renovated earth (Rev 21:9-27).


BigD wrote earlier:

"These earthly things are only temporal. My heavenly blessings are permanent. I will receive them when I am raptured to heaven."

Trevor responded:

We can be heavely minded now and in God's kingdom on earth. I do not believe in the rapture.

BigD replies:
You will find it in 1Cor15:51-53 and 1Thess4:14-18. I do hope that I find yourself in it when it happens.

 
BigD wrote:

"2Cor5 does not state anything about how our bodies will appear. However, it says that we believer will have a home "eternal in the heavens." "

Trevor responded:
No, it says we already have a house or building there, which speaks of the life of immortality that Christ will bring and will clothe us with when he returns, that is the resurrection, "that mortality may be swallowed up of life" v4.

BigD replies:
"For our conversation (citizenship NIV) is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ; Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subjue all things unto himself" (Philipians 3:20, 21).

Nowhere to I find that the earthly kingdom saints will have a body fashioned like unto His glorious body. However, the deceased shall be raised up from the dead.

 
BigD wrote:
 

""the clouds" and "the air" are figurative language of what? "

Trevor responded:

The clouds are a symbol of the ruling class over the earth during the 1000 years, they are the new heaven, while the mortal subjects of the kingdom will be the new earth. These clouds in the air of the kingdom reflect the light of the Sun of righteousness during the 1000 years, having been drawn out of the sea of nations during the previous eras of Jews and Gentiles.

BigD replies:
You are reading that into 1Thess 4:16. IT ISN'T THERE!!! How do you "symbolize "and the dead in Christ shall rise first."

BigD wrote:
 

"Nowhere in Galatians 3:16 do I see Paul quoting directly from the land promises in Genesis 13:14-15. You are somehow reading that into it, or it was omitted from my KJV of the Bible. I am not denying that Abram was not given a land promise, I am saying that the land promises are not the subject in all of Galatians 3. It has to do with the gift of the Spirit and the Law."

Trevor responded:

Yes, there is a larger context in Galatians 3, but the land promise is the one hope of all believers including Abraham and all his true descendants, concentred in Christ, and this includes Paul and the Gentile Galatians. Christ is "the seed" of Genesis 13:14-15 as he is the centre of all the promises to Abraham as Paul states in Galatians 3:16. Galatians 3:26-29 then shows that all the accepted believers will inherit the promise of the land, as well as all the Abrahamic promises. They will receive or fulfil the Edenic promises, all of the Abrahamic promises, the Davidic promises and will be immortal. There was never two ways to two different hopes of salvation. The whole book of Galatians is Paul's exposition that there is and has always ever been only one method of salvation, through faith not Law. Even when the Law was in force, only those of faith will be saved. Every revival in Israel was a faith revival, usually outside of the Law in some aspects, eg David and Hezekiah. To talk all the glorified believers coming under the Law in the Age to Come when they will be immortal and sinless is irrelevant and wrong. Isaiah 2:1-4 speaks of the law and word of God going forth to the nations, but this will proceed from these immortal believers and Christ.

Incidently hoping not to add too much, how do you read "heavenly" in the following concerning Abraham? Will Abraham receive the promise of the land?
Hebrews 11:10, 16 (KJV): "10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city."

BigD replies:
Trevor, I will respond to this a little later today when I have time as it might get lengthly.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Much and Love The Lord!

[BigD]

BigD wrote:
 

"Nowhere in Galatians 3:16 do I see Paul quoting directly from the land promises in Genesis 13:14-15. You are somehow reading that into it, or it was omitted from my KJV of the Bible. I am not denying that Abram was not given a land promise, I am saying that the land promises are not the subject in all of Galatians 3. It has to do with the gift of the Spirit and the Law."

Trevor responded:

Yes, there is a larger context in Galatians 3, but the land promise is the one hope of all believers including Abraham and all his true descendants, concentred in Christ, and this includes Paul and the Gentile Galatians. Christ is "the seed" of Genesis 13:14-15 as he is the centre of all the promises to Abraham as Paul states in Galatians 3:16. Galatians 3:26-29 then shows that all the accepted believers will inherit the promise of the land, as well as all the Abrahamic promises. They will receive or fulfil the Edenic promises, all of the Abrahamic promises, the Davidic promises and will be immortal. There was never two ways to two different hopes of salvation. The whole book of Galatians is Paul's exposition that there is and has always ever been only one method of salvation, through faith not Law. Even when the Law was in force, only those of faith will be saved. Every revival in Israel was a faith revival, usually outside of the Law in some aspects, eg David and Hezekiah. To talk all the glorified believers coming under the Law in the Age to Come when they will be immortal and sinless is irrelevant and wrong. Isaiah 2:1-4 speaks of the law and word of God going forth to the nations, but this will proceed from these immortal believers and Christ.

Incidently hoping not to add too much, how do you read "heavenly" in the following concerning Abraham? Will Abraham receive the promise of the land?
Hebrews 11:10, 16 (KJV): "10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city."

BigD replies:
Trevor, I do not believe that you an show me where Paul ever promised an earthly kingdom. You cannot read Paul's epistles into the promises to Abrahamn/Israel because what what revealed to Paul was future revelation after Israel was set aside. However, after the rapture of the Chruch, the Body of Christ, God will again deal with the nation of Israel and all the promises made to Abram/Abraham, Moses and David will be fulfilled. Israel will occupy all the land that was
promised to them.

 Hebrews 11:10 "For he (Abraham) looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God."

 Yes Abraham's promises were of land. Here I believe the author of Hebrews is saying that Abraham was looking for a heavenly city, the New Jerusalem. Also, I do believe that Abraham will be dwelling there.

Hebrews 11:16 "16 But now they desire a better country , that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city."

Abramham, while alive, was given a promise from heaven, and that is the "better country" (from God country) that Abraham was looking forward to. That is why he left his home; as God instructed him.

Salvation/justification has ALWAYS been by one means. That means is FAITH. The attributes of God have NEVER changed. He is the same today; as he was yesterday, and will be the same tomarrow. However, the manner in which God dealt with mankind has changed through out the time of human history. Throughtout human history for one to be saved/justified one had to believe God and do/not do what God required. After the fall, Adam and Ever, Cain and Able, Noah, Abram/Abraham knew nothing about keeping the Law. It was all future revelation. God gave Adam and Eve a conscience to know right from wrong. Cain and Able had to offer the sacrifice that God required. Noah had to believe God and build an ark. Abram had to believe God and count the stars in heaven. Abraham had to believe God and offer his son Isaac. They were all justified by their FAITH, and doing what God required.

For the Children of Israel to be saved/justified they had to do the deeds/works of the Civil, Moral and Ceremonial Laws of Moses by FAITH.

Do believers, members of the Body of Christ, today have to keep the Civil, Moral and Ceremonial Laws of Moses by FAITH?  NO!! All we need to do is put our FAITH and trust in the Cross work (death burial and resurrection) of Christ for their salvation/justification. NO WORKS REQUIRED![/b}

From the above, you should be able to see that the instructions in righteousness for the children of Israel were given by God to Moses through believing and doing the deed/works of the Law by FAITH. The instructions in righteousness for members of the Body of Christ were given by God to the Apostle Paul through the preaching of "the gospel of the grace of God," through FAITH alone.

Still the attributes of God have never changed, but the manner in which God deals with us today has changed.

Hope this is helpful.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

[Silver Surfer]

Howdy Silver Surfer, I do not keep the Sabbath as it was kept under the Law of Moses,

Ah, but the 7th day Sabbath commandment is not in the Law of Moses.

It is the 4th commandment, that God himself wrote out, with his very own finger, (Exodus 20:8-11......31:18).


The sabbaths that were in the Law of Moses, were the ceremonial sabbaths, such as the Passover....the Feasts of Trumpets...the Feasts of Unleaven Bread, etc...etc., which were abolished, at the cross of Jesus.

[nChrist]

Howdy Silver Surfer, I do not keep the Sabbath as it was kept under the Law of Moses,

Ah, but the 7th day Sabbath commandment is not in the Law of Moses.

It is the 4th commandment, that God himself wrote out, with his very own finger, (Exodus 20:8-11......31:18).


The sabbaths that were in the Law of Moses, were the ceremonial sabbaths, such as the Passover....the Feasts of Trumpets...the Feasts of Unleaven Bread, etc...etc., which were abolished, at the cross of Jesus.

Silver Surfer,

You now have over 100 posts, and you have used nearly all of those posts to say the same thing over and over again. Your one and only note that you play is off-key and is no more true at post 100 than it was in post 1. I think that you play this one note because you are brain-washed with Ellen G. White doctrine, but nobody else is even listening to your one note. Your one sour note that you play is being heard only by you.

You have been given sound doctrine, but you ignored it. You need to learn about Jesus, what HE did, why HE did it, and what changed because of HIS perfect sacrifice on the Cross for us.

Born Again believers with Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Saviour rest in HIM 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Jesus Christ is our Sabbath, we live in HIM, and HE lives in us. We don't need an appointment to worship HIM or pray. Our fellowship with JESUS is NOT 1 hour or 1 day each week. Jesus Christ is LORD over all days and all hours. HE is LORD over HIS children every second of every day.

Learn about JESUS. Only JESUS can set you free from the curse of sin and death. You will remain in misery until you allow JESUS to set you free.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[Silver Surfer]

Silver Surfer,

You now have over 100 posts, and you have used nearly all of those posts to say the same thing over and over again.

Really ?

Your one and only note that you play is off-key and is no more true at post 100 than it was in post 1. I think that you play this one note because you are brain-washed with Ellen G. White doctrine, but nobody else is even listening to your one note. Your one sour note that you play is being heard only by you.

"As it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be in the day of the coming of the Son of man", (Matthew 24:37).
Noah put up with people's rejection of God's message for some 120 years.....and I'm suppose to be discouraged, because I post for some 100 times ?

You have been given sound doctrine, but you ignored it.

Had there been sound doctrine here...God would not have placed me here.

 

Learn about JESUS. Only JESUS can set you free from the curse of sin and death. You will remain in misery until you allow JESUS to set you free.

Oh, you mean the Jesus who said: "IF..you love me, keep my commandments" ?

[TrevorL]

Howdy Silver Surfer,

Greetings again. Silver Surfer wrote:

"Ah, but the 7th day Sabbath commandment is not in the Law of Moses.
It is the 4th commandment, that God himself wrote out, with his very own finger, (Exodus 20:8-11......31:18).
The sabbaths that were in the Law of Moses, were the ceremonial sabbaths, such as the Passover....the Feasts of Trumpets...the Feasts of Unleaven Bread, etc...etc., which were abolished, at the cross of Jesus.
Oh, you mean the Jesus who said: "IF..you love me, keep my commandments" ?"

I am not sure that I want to get into a full ranging discussion on the Sabbath. I believe the need to keep the Commandments. Concerning the sabbath not being part of the Law given to Moses and hence to Israel, consider all of 2 Corinthians 3, but especially:
2 Corinthians 3:7 (KJV): "But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
John 1:14,17 (KJV): "14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ."

But rather than getting into the full subject of the sabbath, briefly expanding on the two aspects mentioned previously,  "Jesus is the true rest Matthew 11:28-30, and the 1000 years is also another aspect of the true rest Hebrews 4." The Book of  Hebrews is addressed to believing Jews, and many of these were in Jerusalem and Judea, where the Law and the Temple were the centre of worship. The writer is seeking to refocus their minds on Christ and make them realise that the Law and it's environment was soon to be removed, and if they did not hold fast to Christ they were in danger of drifting away, and being engulfed in the coming troubles.

Paul in Hebrews 4 teaches concerning the true rest in the following:
Hebrews 4:1-11 (KJV): "1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. 6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: 7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. 8 For if Jesus (mg Joshua) had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a rest (mg keeping of a Sabbath) to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.."
There is a linking of all aspects of "the rest" or Sabbath, and at the end bringing out the lesson of "ceased from his own works" and also the future rest. This future rest is talking of the future kingdom of God, the subject matter of the "gospel preached" v2, and it is "a promise being left us of entering into his rest" v1. (We are not completely off subject after all).

This ceasing from our own works does have a future aspect, but this can be an every day experience now when we cease from our own works and rest in Christ.
Matthew 11:28-30 (KJV): "28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

Jesus is the true Sabbath.

Kind regards
Trevor

[TrevorL]

Howdy BigD,

Greetings again. I feel that we haved stated our differences, and it appears that we both have strong views based on our environments, our experience, our research, etc. Most probably it will take more than our discussion for us to come to a common view, but I have appreciated our discussion and your patience.
BigD wrote:

"When Christ comes to establish His kingdom upon the earth, I cannot find anywhere in the Bible that says that the kingdom saints will "rule and reign" with Christ upon the earth. The earthly kingdom saints will be judged by the 12 disciples who will be sitting on 12 thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel (Matt 19:28).

Revelation 5:9-10 (KJV): "9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."

BigD wrote:

In 2 Tim 2:11, 12 we read: "It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: If we suffer with him, we shall also reign with him..." This surely won't be upon the earth. "

The 12 disciples suffered with Jesus and will reign with him. This proves that they will share the throne of David with Jesus.
Matthew 19:28 (KJV): "And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Luke 1:32-33 (KJV): "32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."
Revelation 3:21 (KJV): "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."

BigD wrote:

"Then you are saying "eternal in the heavens" is on earth.

2 Corinthians 5:1-4 (KJV): "1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life."
The whole theme of a "house" talks of God's house or temple, and 2 Samuel 7:12-16 speaks of this house and the whole of the promises to David and of Christ sitting on David's throne are interlinked with this. Christ is this temple or house. The believers are part of the body of Christ and the link between the temple and the body and resurrection of Christ is spelt out in John 2:19-22. 2 Corinthians 5 has it's own ideas and context, but has many parallels of thought with this theme of God's house.

BigD wrote:

"Back in Galatians 2:9, the 12 disciples agreed to stay with the Jewish kingdom saints."

This was from an earlier post. You claim that Peter and John preached to the Jews and that Peter and John and these Jews will be in the earthly kingdom. Looking at the Book of  Hebrews, this is addressed to these believing Jews, and many of these were in Jerusalem and Judea, where the Law and the Temple were the centre of worship. How do you understand the following where the writer compares the trust they should have in Jesus with their present trust in Moses:
Hebrews 3:1-2 (KJV): "1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; 2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house."

Concerning your other comments, I believe that there is only one means of salvation, and one outcome, not two as you state. Undoubtedly being under the Law was a different environment, but the outcome was the same - faith. Salvation is by an affectionate response in faith to the preaching of the gospel of the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, and this faith leads to baptism and living the crucified life.
Acts 8:5,12 (KJV): "5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women."
Galatians 2:20 (KJV): "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

Kind regards
Trevor

[Brother Love]

How refreshing BigD, keep up the good work Brother, Amen

[Silver Surfer]

Howdy Silver Surfer,

Greetings again. Silver Surfer wrote:

"Ah, but the 7th day Sabbath commandment is not in the Law of Moses.
It is the 4th commandment, that God himself wrote out, with his very own finger, (Exodus 20:8-11......31:18).
The sabbaths that were in the Law of Moses, were the ceremonial sabbaths, such as the Passover....the Feasts of Trumpets...the Feasts of Unleaven Bread, etc...etc., which were abolished, at the cross of Jesus.
Oh, you mean the Jesus who said: "IF..you love me, keep my commandments" ?"

I am not sure that I want to get into a full ranging discussion on the Sabbath. I believe the need to keep the Commandments. Concerning the sabbath not being part of the Law given to Moses and hence to Israel, consider all of 2 Corinthians 3, but especially:
2 Corinthians 3:7 (KJV): "But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
John 1:14,17 (KJV): "14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ."

But rather than getting into the full subject of the sabbath, briefly expanding on the two aspects mentioned previously,  "Jesus is the true rest Matthew 11:28-30, and the 1000 years is also another aspect of the true rest Hebrews 4." The Book of  Hebrews is addressed to believing Jews, and many of these were in Jerusalem and Judea, where the Law and the Temple were the centre of worship. The writer is seeking to refocus their minds on Christ and make them realise that the Law and it's environment was soon to be removed, and if they did not hold fast to Christ they were in danger of drifting away, and being engulfed in the coming troubles.

Paul in Hebrews 4 teaches concerning the true rest in the following:
Hebrews 4:1-11 (KJV): "1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. 6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: 7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. 8 For if Jesus (mg Joshua) had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a rest (mg keeping of a Sabbath) to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.."
There is a linking of all aspects of "the rest" or Sabbath, and at the end bringing out the lesson of "ceased from his own works" and also the future rest. This future rest is talking of the future kingdom of God, the subject matter of the "gospel preached" v2, and it is "a promise being left us of entering into his rest" v1. (We are not completely off subject after all).

This ceasing from our own works does have a future aspect, but this can be an every day experience now when we cease from our own works and rest in Christ.
Matthew 11:28-30 (KJV): "28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

Jesus is the true Sabbath.

Kind regards
Trevor

And thus Satan has deceived the Christian world (2 Corinthians 11:14,15).
By making the Christian world disobey God, while they believe they obey God ?
The same scenerio played out with King Saul (1 Samuel, chapter 15). Saul disobey God, while thinking he worshipped God.....and as a result, God rejected King Saul forever.