Sabbath

[Chesed]

You show a total ignorance of both Biblical law, history and logic.

You shouldn't resort to ad hominem attacks because you can't answer my questions.

Historically, the Jews in some number have always kept the Sabbath on the seventh day. And they have been scrupulous at keeping their calendar.

the reforms of Hillal didn't come until 4 centuries after Christ.

The link I posted didn't say anything about Hillel reforming the calendar, it said he fixed it.

The Jews adjusted the callendar several different ways during their history, and this included adding extra days without counting them, thus there could be two first day's of the week in a row several times per year.

Could you please cite your source?

And as to the argument that somehow our Saturday corresponds to the seventh day of the time of Christ is parochial on your part, as there are other countries where Sunday is the seventh day of the week and Monday the first.

Again as I said before, if you can't trust the Jewish people to keep the Sabbath on the right day, then how can you trust the Scriptures they preserved?

[Tim Vaughan]

In France, Sunday is the Seventh day of the week, during the time of Christ and before it varied, as I tried to explain it to you. The founders of the Seventh Day Advenists, World Wide Church of God and other cults now realise they have founded churches based on bad scholarship, parochial attitudes and a lack of even basic, informed research, which is why they aren't as aggressive in promoting it as they used to be.

[Chesed]

All religious Jewish communities all over the world keep the same day as a Sabbath, whether in France, Israel, Russia, US, Uganda, etc. Changes in the Gregorian calendar don't affect the Jewish calendar.

You still have not shown documentation that the Jews added in 4-5 days and didn't count them. Could you produce your source please?

I'm not a 7th Day Adventist or a member of the World Wide Church of God. But they seem to be still pretty aggressive about the Sabbath.

I am a Christian who is learning the Jewish roots of my faith and I belong to a Torah community. Many churches are now keeping the Sabbath realizing that Sunday worship is based on centuries of syncretism and flawed hermeneutics.

[Tim Vaughan]

Once the Beth Din had evidence that the new moon had been seen, (see FIXING THE CALENDAR) a new month was declared to have started, and people would know when to observe festivals. Some were informed by chains of beacons and signal fires; but this system was sabotaged by the Samaritans who lit fires on the wrong nights.8. Then messengers were sent to other towns and villages; 9. but by the time of the Roman period, Jews were living throughout the Roman Empire. Eventually it was decreed that Jews outside of Palestine should observe extra days of festivals in order to be sure of observing the correct date.

Even in Israel where only one day was observed, their system only worked for festivals which occurred in the middle of a month. As Rosh Hashanah fell on the 1st of Tishri they could not wait for an announcement before starting to celebrate New Year's Eve. So they kept two days of Rosh Hashanah.10. So today Jews in Israel observe two days Rosh Hashanah and only one day of other festivals. While Orthodox Jews outside Israel add extra days for festivals. Most Reform and Liberal, who believe that there is no longer any doubt about the calendar dates, follow the Israeli practice.

http://www.rigal.freeserve.co.uk/jewish/calendar/jcalendar2.htm
There are thousands of references. What, do you think that your small band has been given knowledge hidden to the vast majority of Christians who've lived over the centuries?

[nChrist]

Brothers and Sisters,

It's all a completely moot issue. Jesus Christ is LORD over all days, and Jesus Christ is our Sabbath Rest 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. One doesn't need a calendar or an appointment to pray and worship Jesus.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[Tim Vaughan]

It's all a completely moot issue. Jesus Christ is LORD over all days, and Jesus Christ is our Sabbath Rest 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. One doesn't need a calendar or an appointment to pray and worship Jesus.

Tom I agree, and go back to my original post, when I said that the Lord's Day is basically public, in the sense that a basically God honoring, or nowdays at least a culture that has been influenced by Christianity sets aside a day of rest.

[Chesed]

Tim -

Your quote from Mishna Rosh Hashana, showing that some festivals days were kept as a 2 day festival for Jews outside of Jerusalem does not explain what you said in your intial post. Taking a one day festival and celebrating it for 2 days would not have affected the week days, it did not make the 7th day fall on a Thursday, Friday, etc. as you said earlier.

BEP -

You are right that we should be praying and worshiping 24/7. Jesus is our spiritual rest and in Him we can rest from trying to earn our salvation by ourselves. This rest is 24/7.

But the Sabbath day is a physical rest that God asks us not to work, to focus on Him, our families and our communities.

Hebrews 4:9 "So there remains a Sabbath-keeping* for God's people. "

*The word here in the Greek is sabbatismos used only here in the NT. In the Septuagint, the related Greek word "sabbatizein" was coined to translate the Hebrew verb shabbat when it means "to observe the Sabbath." (From David Stern's Jewish New Testament Commentary, p. 673.)

[Tim Vaughan]

Your quote from Mishna Rosh Hashana, showing that some festivals days were kept as a 2 day festival for Jews outside of Jerusalem does not explain what you said in your intial post. Taking a one day festival and celebrating it for 2 days would not have affected the week days, it did not make the 7th day fall on a Thursday, Friday, etc. as you said earlier.

My initia post was correct. If the first of Nisan was a Sabbath, and the eighth, fifteenth and so on then you could corelate it with our chalendar. But if the first of Nisan is a Sabbath, and two days ellapse between the first and the second day of Nisan, then you can't corelate the two chalendars unless you had a list of the extra days, and exactly when they fell, from the 4th Century AD backwards till the giving of the Ten Commandments. No such documentation exists, nor will it ever.

We count every day, even leap year's Feb 29th. The Jews didn't during the time between the giving of the Ten Commandments (or posibly before) until the time of Christ.

There are seven days in our week and we count them all. During OT times some weeks had 7 days, some had 8,9 and possibly ten, but only 7 were counted. So on any given year, if we could use a computer to go back, and we had records, some years the seventh day would equate to our Saturday, and some years it wouldn't. It could even vary during a given year.

[Symphony]

TimV's original post:

The Sabbath in the Bible isn't on any particular day, e.g. Saturday or Sunday. The purpose is general, and public, so whatever day is used in your particular culture is fine.

The Hebrew callendar was lunar, so they picked 4-5 days each year and just didn't count them, so if you were to make a computer program to trace the days backwards using our callendar, some years it would be on Sunday, some Thursday, etc..

So don't let anyone get you bogged down in whether Saturday or Sunday is the true Sabbath, neither were, but since Sunday is the public holiday in our culture, the Commandment points to this day as the proper day of rest.



I think this is all a good point.

ANd bep's point 'bout Jesus being our 'sabbath rest'.

After all, that's what the whole 'sabbath' was/is about - 'rest.'

'Rest' is very important.   I think that is what Hell is all about - absolutely NO rest - ever.  

Hebrews 3 and 4 talks at length about "entering His rest", mentioning it repeatedly.

[oneBook]

You are mistaken Tim,

never would one or two days occur between the 1st and second day of Nissan.  They count the days of the month the same as us, the second day is always the second day, etc.

If you are referring to the practice of waiting till the spotting of the new moon, if the moon was spotted on the day they expected it, then that was declared the 1st day of the month, and all counting went on from there.  If they didn't see the new moon on the day it was expected, then that day became the 30th of the month they were currently in, and the next day was declared a new moon (the 1st of the next month).  No days were ever lost.
We can't necessarily backtrack and find out how many days were in a given month unless we have records on the calendars from that time that recorded when they declared the new moon in a given month, but that doesn't have any affect on the Sabbath, since every week was kept at 7 days.

I don't expect you to take my word as gospel or anything, just find a Jewish forum and ask a rabbi how the calendar works, and how we can be sure that the Sabbath today is the same as it was back then.

-onebook

[nChrist]

Brothers and Sisters,

This is really a very foolish matter to contend over. Born again believers are already IN JESUS, Members of His Body, the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST. Any mature Christian knows this. I could care less about what day of the week it is now, OR what day of the week it was 2500 years ago. I could care less what a Rabbi or a Levite Priest would have to say about the matter, and I certainly don't need a calendar. It would make absolutely no difference at all if a Christian never looked at a calendar again and didn't have a clue what day of the week it was.

Jesus Christ is LORD over all days, we are in HIM, and HE is in us. Here's a clue for those of you who are mired in the law: our heart is HIS Temple. HIS Holy Spirit is ALIVE in us, and we are ALIVE in Jesus. Forget about the sun, the moon, and the stars - a born again Christian blind and in a coma has entered our Sabbath Rest, Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour forever. Stop worrying about born again Christians in your family who have Alzheimer's, had strokes, or otherwise lost their mental faculties. They are fine - safe and secure in the mighty hand of Jesus. Here's a final hint:  The Sabbath is Jesus Christ - Not a day.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[Tim Vaughan]

I don't expect you to take my word as gospel or anything, just find a Jewish forum and ask a rabbi how the calendar works, and how we can be sure that the Sabbath today is the same as it was back then.

Nobody cares how modern Jews keep the calendar. Read the whole thread.

[Tim Vaughan]

This is really a very foolish matter to contend over. Born again believers are already IN JESUS, Members of His Body, the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST. Any mature Christian knows this.

There are a few people, mostly modernistic Baptists, who believe the way you do, but to say any mature believer knows this is one of the most arrogant statements that I've heard in my life. You are condeming men of God from Luther to Bunyan to Wycliffe to millions alive today.

[Raphu]

One would expect the Jewish people to maintain the tradition they were brought up with, just as the trdition to hoinor God for those of the Gentile branch or even Ephraim who was absorbed by the Gentile nations would follow after their tradition to meet on the Lord's day. Either way, the Bible tells us to not judge the other for the day they keep unto the Lord.

Romans 14:4  Who are you to condemn God’s servants? They are responsible to the Lord, so let him tell them whether they are right or wrong. The Lord’s power will help them do as they should.
5  In the same way, some think one day is more holy than another day, while others think every day is alike. Each person should have a personal conviction about this matter.
6  Those who have a special day for worshiping the Lord are trying to honor him. Those who eat all kinds of food do so to honor the Lord, since they give thanks to God before eating. And those who won’t eat everything also want to please the Lord and give thanks to God.
7  For we are not our own masters when we live or when we die.
8  While we live, we live to please the Lord. And when we die, we go to be with the Lord. So in life and in death, we belong to the Lord.
9  Christ died and rose again for this very purpose, so that he might be Lord of those who are alive and of those who have died.
10  So why do you condemn another Christian? Why do you look down on another Christian? Remember, each of us will stand personally before the judgment seat of God.

[2nd Timothy]

This is really a very foolish matter to contend over. Born again believers are already IN JESUS, Members of His Body, the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST. Any mature Christian knows this.

There are a few people, mostly modernistic Baptists, who believe the way you do,

Chalk me in with that few please!

but to say any mature believer knows this is one of the most arrogant statements that I've heard in my life.

 Then you are either very young, or possibly have some maturing to do

You are condeming men of God from Luther to Bunyan to Wycliffe to millions alive today.

 Which just proves the prior.   There was no condemnation what-so-ever in what was posted.   Truth spoken from the word, in humility I might add.

Grace and Peace!