Religious Sensationalists

[Symphony]

Very well said, nana.

each professing to the inspiration of the Holy Spirit with total contridiction to each other.


I think we can have inspiration of the HS; but I think it's a 'knowing', or an 'awareness'... w/o the ususal self-righteousness.

I'm glad you didn't become disenfranchised from your experiences.  Many do, it seems.

[Brother Love]

Very well said, nana.

each professing to the inspiration of the Holy Spirit with total contridiction to each other.


I think we can have inspiration of the HS; but I think it's a 'knowing', or an 'awareness'... w/o the ususal self-righteousness.

I'm glad you didn't become disenfranchised from your experiences.  Many do, it seems.

True









 

[MalkyEL]

Symphony wrote:

I think we can have inspiration of the HS; but I think it's a 'knowing', or an 'awareness'... w/o the ususal self-righteousness.

I'm glad you didn't become disenfranchised from your experiences.  Many do, it seems.

Nana:
After grazing in two religious movements that "exelled" in HS "manifestations" and discovering that satan masquerades as an angel of light, I learned three things about HS inspiration:

1)  test the spirit - if it has *anything* to do with charismania - forget it - sometimes you gotta do a little digging, but it's usually there somewhere  
 
1)  What you hear better line up with God's Word [not your interpretation of it, God's ]  

2)  It HAS to be tempered with the fruit of the Spirit - if the person is in the least bit ugly in attitude - reject it.  

God sent someone in to drag me out of the fire - what I learned/am learning from Him through him is temperence/self-control, patience, kindness, compassion, meekness, love, joy, peace, righteousness, truth, mercy and not to be offended.  Learn from your mistakes, but walk in mercy.

Jam 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, [and] easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

 [apply that verse to #3 also  ]

Shalom, Nana

[Marv]

I don't know why all the fighting over the election, I've heard at least two tv "evangalists" agree that the world will end in 2007.  "Send your cards, letters, and gifts..."

Marv

[Brother Love]

I don't know why all the fighting over the election, I've heard at least two tv "evangalists" agree that the world will end in 2007.  "Send your cards, letters, and gifts..."
Marv

I agree "TWO"Thumbs UP

[Brother Love]

What is God’s will for you?  According to most TV evangelists and preachers, it must have something to do with obtaining worldly blessings.  Cable television is full of smooth talking men and women in expensive clothes and absurd hairdos claiming God wants to give you wealth, health, personal power, happiness, a big house, a new car, marital bliss, and the power to overcome your addictions.  With all these sugarcoated, feel-good messages that flow from the mouths of self-appointed men & women of God, the positive thinking movement has definitely moved heavily into the religious arena.

[Brother Love]

Unfortunately, entertainment has replaced good preaching as the focus of most large ministries today.  The sad consequence of this phenomenon is that the vast majority of people who watch Christian television or fill the pews on Sunday morning know very little about the Bible.  Tragically, most don’t even have a child’s knowledge of the gospel of salvation.  For this reason, we must return to my original question.  What is God’s will for you?

Let’s look how the Bible answers this all-important question. In 1 Timothy 2:3-4 we read,

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;  Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

In this age of grace, it is God’s will that each and every human being be saved from eternal damnation.  Then, once an individual is saved, God wants him to learn the truth found in His word.  If you are involved in any ministry or denominational system that does not preach the salvation message and teach sound Bible doctrine, it’s time to run to the exit door.

[Brother Love]

If God wants "all men to be saved", then it is critical that we know why we need salvation and how we go about getting it.  There are four key truths that are needed to present and understand the gospel of salvation.  They are:

A)    All men are sinners

B)    The penalty for sin is death

C)    Jesus Christ paid our sin debt

D)    Each person must individually believe and accept God’s salvation gift

Using the Bible, let’s explore these truths one by one.[/b][/size]

[Brother Love]

Just a REMINDER About: Religious Sensationalists

[Brother Love]

   When a brother steps into God’s role by either predicting or prophesying future events that are in His hands only, he has, in my opinion, involved himself in affairs that belong only to Deity.

[Bern]

2 Peter 2:
1 ¶  But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2  And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3 ¶  And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.


This is so true and we can see it happening all over the world today. The image people get of Christians is one of hypocritical money grabbers who teach crazy things, mad "manifestations" or prosperity gospel junk.

As for so called prophets... in this day and age one has to be VERY careful what they listen to. As a rule, if a "prophet" does not encourage you to lead a relationship that is closer and more glorifying to Christ then he is not a true prophet inspoired by the  Spirit. The Holy Spirits ministry is to glorify Christ and to present His church as a spotless bride for Him. If the words of prophets dont work towards this goal then they are false.

Praise God that if we are walking in the light, daily communing with Jesus and listening to His Holy Spirit, He will guard our hearts from decpetion. Now is a dangerous time for the luke warm believer.

1 Tim 4:1 ¶  Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2  Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

2 Thess 2:1 ¶  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 ¶  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Walk closely with God and pray that he will guard us from deception.

[sincereheart]

REBUKE THE MAD PROPHET!
by Chip Brogden
(was at the following URL:

"...which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet." --- II Peter 2:15, 16

We live in a politically correct society that puts up with all kinds of stupidity and foolishness in the name of tolerance.  Since the Laodicean Church is as lukewarm as it is wimpy, it has developed its own form of "spiritually correct" rules wrapped up in banal little catch phrases like: "Don't judge!  Don't criticize!  Touch not God's prophets!  Submit to those in authority!  Honor thy church and thy pastor, and thou shalt live long and prosper on the earth! "

The purpose of this article is to take a politically INCORRECT look at the obligation we have to rebuke mad prophets, and for that matter, crazy teachers, insane pastors, nutty evangelists, and fruitcake apostles.  It is intended to equip and to instruct the average "dumb ass" on the Biblical precedent they have to stand up to, rebuke, resist, and bring accountability to the Balaams, Jezebels, and Nicolaitans of this world.

This is not a choice.  This is not take it or leave it.  It is your obligation as a Christian to discern, judge righteous judgment, confront, speak out, and rebuke the false wherever you observe it - in the sinning brother or sister, in the spiritually abusive "pastor", in the so-called Christian  "teacher" who reeks of extra-Biblical concepts, in the esoteric and soulish self-styled "prophet", in the money-grubbing manipulating "evangelist", and in the power-mad authoritarian "apostle".  Silence is consent.  We cannot be silent anymore.  We've been silent too long.

"But brother," people say to me all the time.  "Where's the love of JESUS in all of this?"  This is a foolish and unlearned question.  As if loving Jesus means we just put up with everything contrary to Jesus in the name of keeping the peace or "killing them with kindness" or "just loving that sinning brother" or "just letting God deal with them." Sure we love them, and love is action - not passively waiting for things to get better on their own.  They never do.  Really, when you fail to speak up and speak out, it has nothing to do with love, other than love of your SELF.  The safest, most loving thing for you to do for your SELF is to "just pray"about it and keep your mouth shut.  But if we really love others more than ourselves we'll want to protect others from being misled, even if it incurs persecution and results in us being misunderstood and condemned by others.

[sincereheart]

We wish to offer some practical help in this confusing area of when and why to rebuke.  But first, we need to dispel some myths commonly associated with this subject, primarily dispensed by the very ones who don't want to be rebuked but need to be rebuked worse than anyone else, those in positions of leadership in the church.  Although this information can be adapted to generally apply to anyone, it is written primarily from the perspective of rebuking prophets.
 
TOUCH NOT MINE ANOINTED?

The number one proof-text for not rebuking prophets, pastors, and the like is from Psalms 105:15, quoted as: "Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm."  Interestingly enough, it is the psuedo-prophets themselves who use this like an executive privilege to shield them from all wrongdoing.  Is it justifiable?  Absolutely not!

For context, the entire passage is:

"He is the LORD our God: his judgments are in all the earth.  He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations. Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac; And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant: Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance: When they [Israel!] were but a few men in number; yea, very few, and strangers in it. When they [Israel!] went from one nation to another, from one kingdom to another people; He suffered no man to do them [Israel] wrong: yea, he reproved kings for their [Israel's!] sakes; Saying, Touch not mine anointed [Israel!], and do my prophets no harm (Psalms 105:7-15)." [Bracketed comments mine.]

It should be obvious that God is not telling Christians to never speak up or question errant prophets.  It should be apparent that God is not saying prophets are above reproach and unrebukable.  The context demonstrates He is talking about His covenant with Israel and His protection of them as a nation. God WAS NOT talking about people who want to be prophetically exempt from being rebuked because they claim to be "God's Anointed." Furthermore, rebuking a prophet is not doing him harm anyway, it's preventing him from causing more harm.

If you want a sobering example of what it means to rebuke a prophet, consider a full-blown investigation into Jeremiah 28.  Jeremiah the "doom and gloom" prophet confronts Hananiah the "it'll all get better" prophet (and notice they are BOTH called prophets!):

"Then said the prophet Jeremiah unto Hananiah the prophet, Hear now, Hananiah; The LORD hath not sent thee; but thou makest this people to trust in a lie. Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will cast thee from off the face of the earth: this year thou shalt die, because thou hast taught rebellion against the LORD. So Hananiah the prophet died the same year in the seventh month (Jeremiah 28:15-17)."

So what makes a prophet or prophecy false?  The American Heritage Dictionary defines "false" in several ways:

false:
1. Contrary to fact or truth.
2. Deliberately untrue.
3. Arising from mistaken ideas.
4. Intentionally deceptive.
5. Not keeping faith; treacherous.
6. Not genuine or real.
7. Erected temporarily, as for support during construction.
8. Resembling but not accurately or properly designated as such.
9. Music. Of incorrect pitch.
10. Unwise; imprudent.

Please note there are several shades of meaning tied up in the word "false", denoting anything from deliberately and intentionally untrue, to simply mistaken, to resembling but not accurately portraying the truth - what I call "soulish".  Jim Jones would be an example of an insane, intentionally deceptive false prophet.  We would not rebuke him in the same manner as we would someone who is merely mistaken, or simply unwise or immature.  Most false prophets and false prophetic words propagated today fall in the area of the soulish: resembling but not accurately portraying the spiritual; having man as its source, uninspired by God; fantasy, illusion and hyperbole. They take on an ethereal, surreal quality.

[sincereheart]

I particularly like the musical definition: "of incorrect pitch."  When you play a middle C on a pitch pipe it will always be middle C.  It will never blow a B flat or a D minor.  Even a person with an ear for music can tell you when someone is "off", even if they don't play an instrument themselves.  Something just doesn't sound right.  Ask them what's wrong, and they might say they can't describe it, but something sounds "off", even if the lyrics are sung beautifully.  The rest of the audience will applaud, perhaps totally unaware that there were "false notes" throughout the song.

Play a gospel song on a piano that is out of tune.  People will be blessed and will even sing along and shout "Hallelujah!"- but the whole performance is flawed.  This is a good example of the false prophetic.
 

WHO MAY REBUKE?

My answer to those who ask, "Who may rebuke?" is "any dumb ass" (II Peter 2:16).  If God can use a donkey, he can use anyone who is filled with the Spirit and yielded to Him!  So why did God use a donkey to rebuke Balaam? Because no one was around with enough of the Spirit in them 1) to discern that Balaam was nuts and 2) to have enough boldness, perspicacity and righteous indignation to rebuke him even if they knew he was nuts.

Those who need to be rebuked most often are prophets.  And they are the hardest to rebuke.  Teachers are easy to rebuke because you can apply basic principles of interpretation and know if they are going by the Book or not.  Pastors are little more difficult, but many of them are operating under a built-in network of accountability already.  Evangelists usually won't hang around long enough to get rebuked.  But apostles and prophets sometimes pull their stuff out of a magic hat someplace and it's a little more difficult to put your finger on exactly what the problem is.  First and foremost, it is a problem of spiritual pride and defensiveness over the "revelation" they have received.  All you have to do is question the "revelation" and just observe the response you get.  You see, the flaky prophet is identified with his revelation.  They perceive an attack on their revelation as an attack on their person.  A genuine prophet does not have their identity bound up with their revelation.  Their identity is in Christ.

Spiritual pride is when someone begins to think to themselves, "I'm more advanced than the rest.  I'm "over" them in the spiritual food chain.  I'm more experienced.  Furthermore, God is blessing my ministry - just look at the numbers.  If I was in error, God would not be blessing.  Therefore, I'm right on target."  Thus, the rationalization is that "numbers" (money coming in, people involved, the size of the mailing list) are indicative of spiritual success - and nothing could be further from the truth.  It is very easy to generate all the cash and followers you need.  Simply tell people what they want to hear and smile all the way to the bank.  It's done everyday.  So don't get awed by the apparent "size" of their operation.  It means nothing.

Don't be intimidated by their gifts.  I find today many very gifted people who are incredibly soulish and immature.  Spiritual gifts do not equal spiritual fruit.  Gifts are giving in a moment; fruit grows on trees and takes a long time.  So gifts are imparted, but fruit is cultivated. Spiritual gifts speak of ability, while spiritual fruit speaks of character (Galatians 5:22,23).  We do not judge based on gifts, but basedon fruit.  "By their FRUITS you will know them (Matthew 7:20)." [Emphasis mine.]

The idea that "I'm above rebuke" is grounds to be rebuked on the spot.  It is a palpable spiritual arrogance that is easily detectable in the Spirit.  All who have the Spirit of God are in the position to speak to it.  That includes any "John Doe" Christian who is abiding with Jesus!  Who may rebuke?  Those one who discern a problem!  For, why else would God reveal  it to you?  To pray, yes.  But then what?  Let us not go about rebuking at random; but if the Spirit of God stirs up our Spirit, how can we remain silent?

"Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him. Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD." --- Leviticus 19:17, 18

Interesting that God prefers rebuke as a means of dealing with offenses, rather than storing up strife in our heart - and in that context, commands us to rebuke our neighbor to show our love!  Be careful, it doesn't say, "Thou shalt NOT in anywise rebuke," it clearly says you SHALL rebuke your neighbor.  The NIV is even clearer: "Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in his guilt."  How much plainer can it be?

It seems the genuine prophets of the Bible were always the first to rise in condemnation of the false prophets.   False prophets can be very intimidating and oppressive, and should be handled wisely.  For that reason, my personal opinion (and this is not necessarily the Lord, but me speaking)  is that it is best for a prophet to rebuke a prophet.  I maintain, however, that the Spirit of God qualifies you, not your perceived office, rank, or serial number in the kingdom of God.  I'm not laying down a rule that only prophets should rebuke prophets, only making a suggestion, because I don't want anyone to unnecessarily open themselves up to spiritual oppression.

You can always speak and do what God tells you without consulting anyone, prophet or not - but it is a wise person who seeks advice from mature brothers and sisters before acting.
 

REBUKING THE DEVIL  NO SUBSTITUTE

Now I didn't even want to mention rebuking the devil, but I will anyway to make this point: rebuking the devil is no replacement for rebuking people. Why do I say that?  Because I've participated in prayer meetings designed to "rebuke the devil" and "kick him out of our church" when instead someone with enough guts should have gone to the people causing the problem, looked them in the eye, and rebuked them solidly.  Rebuking the devil in such instances is a cop-out, a religious game, and the bottom line is: it doesn't work.

Quit spiritualizing everything and get real!  Deal with the brother, and win the brother!  Deal with the sister, and win the sister!  Deal with the devil, and win nothing!  It takes a lot more courage, a lot more character, a lot more maturity, and yes a lot more humility, to go to Sister Runshermouth, look her in the face and tell her to shut up, than it does to dance in a circle and rebuke the spirit of gossip.  Please.  Be wise, not children, in your understanding!  And of course, do it in love (I had to throw that in there because I still hear someone saying, "But brother, where's the love of JESUS?").

[sincereheart]

THE BIG QUESTION: PUBLIC OR PRIVATE?

The common assumption is that all rebuking should be done privately, or filtered through some complicated bureaucracy behind the scenes, only to become a public matter as a last resort.  Sorry, it just ain't so - at least from a Scriptural perspective.  Again, those who stand to lose the most face from being rebuked are the ones who declare that they should never be rebuked publicly.  But have you ever tried rebuking them privately?  It's almost impossible to reach them.  So by saying on the one hand that it's wrong to rebuke publicly, then on the other hand refusing to answer telephone calls, letters, email, faxes, and all attempts to rebuke privately, it creates an untouchableness that does not allow confrontation, or even basic communication, from anyone not inside the
"circle".

That's fine, because no where does the Bible say you have to rebuke someone privately!  The overwhelming instances in Scripture are uncomfortably public!  It DOES say if your brother SINS against YOU personally, go to him privately and settle it, taking it before the church only when all else has failed (Matthew 18:15-17).  This has nothing to do with rebuking those who purvey false doctrine, spew erroneous words from God, and present questionable teachings in the public arena.

"But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter BEFORE THEM ALL, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews (Galatians 2:14)?"
[Emphasis mine.]

Why didn't Paul take Peter aside and rebuke him privately?  Why didn't they call an Elder meeting and go into executive session?  Why such a public display?  Was Paul being rebellious, or just showing off?

"I said to Peter BEFORE THEM ALL."  Why?  Because Peter's sin was public; therefore, he should be rebuked publicly.  Had Peter privately admitted to viewing pornography, while cause for concern, it is not a public sin and does not require a public rebuke.  Do you see the difference?  Peter's private sin would not directly impact the Body and could be dealt with on a personal level; but Peter's public sin of racial and religious discrimination, as a recognized apostle and respected teacher, was directly harmful to the Body and could not be handled behind closed doors.

It's not the first time Peter was rebuked publicly:

"And Peter took [Jesus], and began to rebuke Him. But when He had turned about and looked on His disciples, He rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men (Mark 8:32b,33)."

Please understand the situation.  Jesus is openly declaring that He will go to Jerusalem to die.  Peter takes Jesus aside and privately rebukes Him for speaking such things.  Observe Christ's response!  He turns BACK towards the rest of the disciples and rebukes Peter openly and soundly in front of them all.  Why didn't Jesus just whisper in Peter's ear?  Why did He turn Himself back around on purpose in order to involve the whole group?  Because Peter's attitude was detrimental to the rest of the disciples of the Lord.

Jesus did not confront the Pharisees behind closed doors, but in the Temple, in the marketplace, in the street, wherever:

"Then spake Jesus TO THE MULTITUDE, and TO HIS DISCIPLES, Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. But all their works they do for to be seen of men... (Matthew 23:1-5a)" [Emphasis mine.]

This, the opening words of the most famous diatribe against the Pharisees in the entire record of Scripture, came from the lips of Jesus PUBLICLY. It was addressed to the Pharisees, the disciples, the people, the Roman soldiers standing around, anyone within earshot!

Notice that Jesus never has secret meetings or closed-door sessions with his adversaries.  He doesn't speak through representatives or a second-in-command.  He is a public figure Who has nothing to hide.  His conversations with the religious leaders are all recorded.  The insults and blasphemy they hurled at Him are a matter of public record - and so is His assessment of them, their hypocrisy, and their blindness.  He is not afraid to rebuke openly and publicly, and He purposely makes public all private attempts to rebuke Him.  What manner of Man is this!

"Open rebuke is better than hidden love (Proverbs 27:5)."

"Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear (I Timothy 5:20)."

Remember the confrontation between Jeremiah and Hananiah?  Do you think that was done privately within some prophetic chamber deep within the Temple?  No!

"Then the prophet Jeremiah said unto the prophet Hananiah in the presence of the PRIESTS, and in the presence of ALL THE PEOPLE that stood in the house of the LORD (Jeremiah 28:5)..." [Emphasis mine.]

Notice Jeremiah did not "check with the leadership" before presenting this "potentially damaging" word.  He just blabbed it right out in front of everyone.

And what about Elijah, when confronting the false prophets of Baal?  Did he go to them privately with his concerns and try to work something out? No!

"So Ahab sent unto ALL the children of Israel, and gathered the prophets together unto mount Carmel. And Elijah came unto ALL the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word (I Kings 18:20,21)." [Emphasis mine.]

Light has nothing to fear.  It is darkness that cries out for silence, cover-ups, secret meetings, clandestine communication, covert operations, private confrontations,  closed-door discussions and calling-on-the-carpet in the pastor's office.  Obviously we must respect the privacy of others. That is not the point.  The point is that we should come to the light and be exposed for what we are.  If we have nothing to hide, we have nothing to fear.

A slutty woman once tried to seduce a pastor.  He resisted her advances and this only made her angry. One day she threatened to accuse him of an affair anyway in order to destroy him.  He replied, "Go ahead.  I'll ask for a full investigation into my life, as well as your life.  I'll bring in character witnesses who will testify as to what kind of person you are, and what kind of person I am.  I'll be sure to uncover everything you've ever done, and you're welcome to check me out as well.  I'll be sure to make it a matter of public knowledge."  Of course, she knew her slutty history would come out so she quietly slithered back under the rock from whence she came.  The pastor could welcome public scrutiny because he knew he had nothing to hide.

From time to time I receive sarcastic hate mail.  I expect to get more. My policy from now on is to post all such letters on my website with the sender's name and address prominently displayed.  People feel like they can say whatever they like privately because there's plausible deniability and no accountability.  For that reason, never meet privately with your accuser.  Never allow yourself to be carried behind closed doors with a spiritual abuser or false prophet.  Always keep everything in the open so the Body can fairly judge.  Pull out your tape recorder or video  camera and ask your attackers if they mind being recorded; bring along two or three witnesses - observe the tempers that flair as they try to keep everything under wraps under a guise of "confidentiality".  You'll find most of your adversaries slithering away as you turn the lights on. Refuse to meet under cover of darkness!