women pastors?

[super kid]

Does "But she will be kept safe through childbearing, if they continue in faith and love and holiness with sensibleness. (1Ti 2:8-15)"  mean if a woman doesn't continue in faith... she will be lost or damned?

[I_Believe]

Does "But she will be kept safe through childbearing, if they continue in faith and love and holiness with sensibleness. (1Ti 2:8-15)"  mean if a woman doesn't continue in faith... she will be lost or damned?

If you keep posting you might actually post scripture relevant to the topic.

You apparently have no desire to address the original topic.  I will not repond to you again until you post on topic.

Feel free to start another thread to explore your unrelated issues.

[I_Believe]

Thank to those of you who responded with sincerity to this question.  Since it appears that some are here to disrupt and not edify, I am locking this thread.

But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant. Therefore, brothers, desire earnestly to prophesy, and don't forbid speaking with other languages. Let all things be done decently and in order. (1Co 14:38-40)

And truly He gave some to be apostles, and some to be prophets, and some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ. (Eph 4:11-12)

Grace and peace.

[I_Believe]

Let's try this again.  Anyone who would like to comment on this topic is quite welcome to do so.  Hopefully we will not have anymore non-topic related comments.

Grace and peace.

[Evangelist]

I_Believe....I just discovered that the link was no good (had an apostrophe in it..). I tried to edit it, but it apparently didn't take.  It follows in multiple parts.


Over the past 20 years or so, there has been an increasing number of women entering ministry fields, while at the same time there has been increasing commentary, speculation, and acrimony among congregations, denominations, and even between churches in the same neighborhoods and towns over this issue.
It is the expressed intent of this article to take a look at the issue of women in ministry, with a view towards determining, as best as possible, what Scripture says about it. Since every denomination and church claims to use scripture as their "backing" or foundation for their decisions concerning the issue, it then becomes incumbent upon us to observe the simple
fact that there is room for interpretation and understanding. It is also important to note that no matter what the decision, it is not expedient, nor Christian, to "break fellowship" with another because of their differing view.
There are, arguably, two things to consider here. First is the overall issue of women in ministry, and the second is women in ministry positions of authority (ie: pastors, bishops, elders).
The first question we will deal with is the general issue of women in ministry. Can they be ministers with Gods blessings upon their ministry? Exactly what does scripture say about women in positions of ministry?
Let's begin by looking at noted women of the bible, and what they did.
Miriam
Exodus 15:20
"And Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a timbrel in her hand; and all the women went out after her with timbrels and with dances."
Deborah
Judges 4:4
"Now Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth, she judged Israel at that time."
Deborah is a unique character in the Bible. She is the only woman to be a Judge of Israel. Her story takes place between the years 1209 and 1169 B.C. She was a prophetess and Judge of Israel. How she came to be chosen for this position is not recorded but it is evident in her story that her leadership was honored. As Judge, she was also leader of the army of Israel. During the time of Deborah’s rule, the nation of Israel had been under domination by the Canaanites for twenty years. They had suffered terrible atrocities and finally began to cry out to God for deliverance from this enemy. (Judges 4:3)
Jabin ruled the Canaanites and the captain of their army was Sisera. The Canaanite army had 900 iron chariots and many more warriors to boot. Poor Israel had only 10,000 warriors; they were badly outnumbered. Outnumbered or not, God tells Deborah to instruct Barak, her general, to take their 10,000 soldiers up to the River Kishon on Mount Tabor. There, God would send Sisera and his 900 iron chariots and the Canaanite soldiers. God tells Deborah that the Israelites will win the battle. (Judges 4:6-7)
Barak says he’ll obey this command only if Deborah accompanies him. She agrees. Remarkable. This general is given a prophecy that his army will win but won’t go to battle without Deborah. We can discern two things from this: that Barak had incredible faith in Deborah, if not in God, and that Deborah was a courageous and faithful woman.
Huldah
2 Kings 22:14
"So Hilkiah the priest, and Ahikam, and Achbor, and Shaphan, and Asaiah, went unto Huldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum the son of Tikvah, the son of Harhas, keeper of the wardrobe (now she dwelt in Jerusalem in the second quarter); and they communed with her."
Noadiah
Nehemiah 6:14
"Remember, O my God, Tobiah and Sanballat according to these their works, and also the prophetess Noadiah, and the rest of the prophets, that would have put me in fear."
Although referred to as a prophetess, Noadiah was seen as a false prophet(ess).
Isaiah's wife
Isaiah 8:3
"And I went unto the prophetess; and she conceived, and bare a son. Then said Jehovah unto me, Call his name Maher-shalal- hash-baz."
It is worthy of note here that the word translated prophetess in each of the instances above is n@biyah, or neb-ee-yaw',
1) prophetess
a) ancient type endowed with gift of song (Miriam)
b) later type consulted for a word (Huldah)
c) false prophetess (Noadiah)
d) wife of Isaiah the prophet
Neb-ee-yaw’ is the feminine rendering of Nabiy' (naw-ba), which means:
1) spokesman, speaker, prophet, this being the designation given to Jeremiah, Isaiah, and other prophets. It is also relatively significant that in the case of Isaiah's wife, she was referred to as prophetess, although there is no record of her ever giving any prophecy, or functioning
as a prophet. Could this be simply because of her marriage to Isaiah? Remember, in Gen. 2:24; "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh."
In the specific case of Deborah, please note that her position as Judge of Israel was significantly a civil position. During her time, spiritual matters were still handled by the Levites.

(part 1)

[Evangelist]

(part 2)

We will now turn to the New Testament, to see what women are noted there.
In Romans 16, we have people from at least three races - Latins, Jews, and Greeks, who are 'all one in Christ Jesus." They are from lower and upper classes, including slaves and freed slaves . Of the 29 people, ten are women. Apart from Priscilla, none is mentioned elsewhere in the NT. Paul apparently honored these women and held them in high regard. In spite of the lack of information on these women, it is reasonably certain that they must have had some importance in the Church to be included in this list of greetings.
In the ancient world (as today) when someone is applying for a position or job they seek testimonials or references from others who know them well. Many churches today still use letters of commendation or reference from one assembly to another if someone is traveling or moving. These sustatikai epistolai, letters of introduction, were common in business transactions in the ancient world as well.
Paul begins by commending Phoebe (16:1) to the church in Rome. She is the bearer of this letter, and Paul asks them to welcome her. Paul uses two very specific terms to describe her - diakonos - deacon, servant, minister, and prostatis ( (1) a woman set over others 2) a female guardian, protectress, patroness, caring for the affairs of others and aiding them with her resources) - a great help to many people. The term "diakonos", or deacon, is the same as used generically in 1 Thess. 3:2, 2 Cor. 3:6, 11:23; of a specific group or function in Phil 1:1, 1 Timothy 3:8,12. And it is used of Christ (Romans 15:, Apollos (1 Corinthians 3:5), Timothy (1 Timothy 4:6) and of Paul himself (1 Corinthians 3:5, Ephesians 3:7; Colossians 1:23,25). NT scholar, E. Earl Ellis, concluded that diakonos as used by Paul referred to a special class of co-workers who were active in preaching and teaching.
She is also a prostatis - the only time in the NT this word as a noun appears. In secular Greek at that time this was a relatively strong term of leadership. The verb is used by Paul in three out of five occurrences to refer to leadership in the Church. Thus the word suggests Phoebe had a prominent role, leading several Bible translators to render the word as "overseer" or "leader".

Prisca and Aquila (16:3) were a fascinating couple. Prisca is sometimes called Priscilla (Acts 18:2,18,26) - an affectionate version of the same name. When they first appear on the pages of the NT (Acts 18:1-2) they're in Rome. Claudius banished Jews from Rome in AD 52 and this couple settled in Corinth. They were tent-makers - the same trade as Paul's - so in Corinth he stayed with them. They and Paul left Corinth together and went to Ephesus where Prisca and Aquila settled (Acts 18:18). When Apollos stayed with Prisca and Aquila, it is noted that Prisca and Aquila taught him  more perfectly" (Acts 18:24-26). Later, when Paul wrote his first letter to the Corinthians from Ephesus, he sent greetings from Prisca and Aquila and from the church in their house (1 Corinthians 16:19). Next we hear of them back in Rome, where they have a church in their home.
The last time they appear is in 2 Timothy 4:19, and they're back in Ephesus. So wherever these nomadic people are - Rome, Corinth, Ephesus, back in Rome, or finally again in Ephesus - they are at the center of Christian ministry, worship and hospitality (1 Cor. 16:19, Philemon 2).
But there's something odd about the way they're mentioned in the epistles: they are always mentioned together, and on four of the six occasions Prisca is named before her husband. Normally - then as now - the husband's name is mentioned first - 'Mr. and Mrs.'. Some have suggested that Prisca may have been of Roman aristocracy, thus resulting in a "first mention".
Maybe. Considering the fact that Paul did not seem to be a respecter of persons, it is more likely that her leadership gifts or her role in the church was the reason she's mentioned first.

Paul calls them fellow-workers: the same term is used of men such as Timothy and Titus, as well as of women such as Euodia and Syntyche. Paul also considered Apollos and himself God's "fellow- workers" (1 Corinthians 3:9). It is in this group of people who take leadership in the ministry of the gospel that Priscilla, without any distinction related to her sex, is included as well as her husband Aquila. We don't know what roles all these people had as 'fellow-workers' - perhaps their roles were as diverse as their gifts.

Mary (16:6). There are at least six Marys in the NT story - and they are all special people. We don't know anything more about this Mary than that 'she has worked very hard' among them, a similar expression to that used of Tryphena and Tryphosa and Persdis (16:12). What kind of hard work? Did she grow flowers for Sunday services? Clean out the room before house-church? Serve eats after the worship? Perhaps - these so-called menial tasks are honoured when the Lord Christ is served. But the Greek verb 'work very hard' is used regularly by Paul to refer to the special work of the gospel ministry. Only twice does Paul use it in a common or secular sense - both within a proverbial expression (Ephesians 4:8, 2 Timothy 2:6). Paul frequently describes his apostolic ministry with this word, and also the ministry of other leaders and persons of authority:
the context of some of these stresses the need for respect for and submission to such workers. [Cf.

Euodia and Syntyche
(Philippians 4:2,3) two women Paul describes as having '...contended at my side in the cause of the gospel' (NIV)].

Andronicus and Junia (16:7) were Christians before Paul was - their conversion goes right back to the time of Stephen, so they must have had a direct link back to the earliest church in Jerusalem. There is some debate about the sex of Junia or Junias. Paul's word junian may be either masculine or feminine. So we have to be a bit tentative here. Andronicus was certainly a common male name, but there's no evidence Junias was used as a male name. Chrysostom (d. AD 407), one of the first Greek fathers to write extensive commentaries on Paul, and known for his 'negative' view of women, understood that Junia was a woman. He marveled that this woman should be called an apostle! It was not until the 13th century that any writer represented Junia as a male (Aegidius of Rome). He/she is outstanding among (en) the apostles: does this mean Junia was well known by the apostles or well known as an apostle? The natural meaning in Greek is that these two were outstanding as apostles. Keep in mind that the term 'apostle' was used in the early church not just for the Twelve but for any authorised Christian missionaries.

Were Tryphaena and Tryphosa (16:12) twin sisters? Their names mean 'dainty and delicate' but they worked (Gr.-kopian) to the point of exhaustion! Again, the word "worked" is the same as used by Paul to describe the special work of ministry.

[Evangelist]

(part 3)

Three final comments. Romans 16:1-16, then, in an incidental way, allows us to see that Paul had several women coworkers in the church's ministry. Mary, Tryphena, Tryphosa and Persis (as well as Euodia and Syntyche mentioned in Philippians 4:2-3) all shared in the hard labors of a gospel ministry. Priscilla also was a fellow worker with Paul in the ministry. Phoebe was a minister of the Cenchrean church and a leader in the Church. Junia was, along with Andronicus (her husband?) an outstanding apostle.

It is in the context of what we see here that we must begin to view and assess the references found in 1 Cor. 14:34-35 and 1 Tim. 2:8-15 to Pauls view of women in ministry. When viewed properly, the persistent notion that Paul was a woman-hater, or had a low view of them and considered them unfit for teaching, or speaking in the church, begins to fade quickly away...indeed, such a view is untenable and ill-supported. Unfortunately, there are many still today who will not let go of that idea.

While 1 Timothy 2:11-15 at first glance seems easy to read and understand, it is a difficult passage, containing unusual vocabulary (authenteo, hesuchia), awkward grammar (the link between vv. 14 and 15), and references to the Old Testament (Gen. 2 and 3).
We need to understand several things, first. One is that the New Testament Epistles are called "occasional documents" because they were occasioned by a special circumstance on the part of either the author or, more commonly, the recipient. The circumstance might be a doctrine or a practice in need of correction, or it might be a misunderstanding in need of clarification. Thus the selection of theological issues and the extent to which they were discussed was shaped by the circumstances that occasioned a particular epistle. While an epistle may answer a problem, the exact nature of the problem may not be fully reported or evident to us.
Second, the lack of a thorough discussion of a theological issue may limit the modern-day interpreter's understanding of a passage or doctrine. These results are well illustrated in Paul's first letter to Timothy and particularly in his instructions concerning women in the worship assembly. First, the historical situation in the Ephesian church that evoked Paul's instructions in 1 Timothy 2:11-15 is not entirely clear. Historical reconstructions generally fall into three categories.
Some commentators suggest that the basic problem was one of women seeking improperly to assert authority over men in the worship assembly, while other commentators suggest that some women in the church were teaching heresy and that Paul sought to prevent them from using the worship assembly for that purpose. Still other interpreters suggest that Paul's prohibitions were given because women were doctrinally untaught and were thus more susceptible to false teaching. What is apparent, though, is that there was some kind of difficulty, in that assembly, that involved women at the core of the difficulty.
Second, in this passage Paul does not give a complete discussion of the role of women in the worship assembly. In fact nowhere does he comprehensively discuss the teaching role of women either in the worship assembly or in the larger ministry of the church. Other passages do touch briefly on their participation in the worship assembly (e.g., 1 Cor. 11:5; 14:26). But even if these and other passages are carefully integrated, the picture of how women served in the assembly and elsewhere is far from complete.

While Paul was answering a question concerning the conduct of women in the worship assembly as it was known in the first century, there are certain facets of his discourse that we should pay heed to in terms of application to today. It would not be wise to exclude any principles that may be learned, as long as they are in line with the entirety of Gods Word

False teachers had arisen in Ephesus since Paul's last visit there (1 Tim. 1:3-11; 4:1-5; cf. Acts 20:17-38). Quite possibly they were from within the church and may have included recognized elders (Acts 20:29-30). Paul was eager to refute them (1 Tim. 1:3-11; 6:3-10) and to defend against further attacks through the teaching of correct doctrine (4:6, 13-16; 6:2, 17-18), through promoting godly living of both leaders (3:1-13; 5:17-25; 6:11-16) and laity (5:1-16; 6:1-2, 17-19), and through ensuring correct church practice (2:1-15; 3:1-13). Pauls instructions to Timothy were to refute false teachers, to teach the truth of the gospel, to ensure proper conduct in the worship assembly, to select qualified church leaders, and to promote godly behavior and motives on the part of both leaders and laity. Certain problems had arisen in the worship assembly, and Paul addressed four of them in chapter 2. We’ll only briefly speak of two, that being that leaders of the church were to not be contentious, and that they were to come before God in prayer with a clean conscience.

The third area, deserving of slightly more comment, is that women were also to be concerned with the attitude of their hearts rather than outward adornment. In this respect, the admonition was much as he directed to the men concerning clean hearts.
Paul then turned to a fourth area that concerned him as the Ephesians met together for worship, and it deals directly with the issue of concern.
The group of individuals under discussion here is women generally; that is, this directive is not limited to wives. Three factors make this clear. First, in the preceding verses (2:8-10) Paul directed men (andras) to pray and women (gunaikas) to adorn themselves properly. Since it is unlikely that these instructions are limited to husbands and wives, it is unlikely that verses 11-15 are limited to wives. Second, in this context Paul was viewing men and women as part of a worshiping community, not as family members (as he did, e.g., in Eph. 5:22-33). Third, had Paul been speaking of the husband-wife relationship, a definite article or possessive pronoun before andros in verse 12 might have been expected (as in Eph. 5:22-25, 28-29, 31, 33).
Paul directed the women in the worship assembly to learn (manthano). This verb is used seven times in the Pastorals; in this verse it carries the connotation of learning through instruction (cf. 2 Tim. 3:7, 14; John 7:15; 1 Cor. 14:31). Paul assumed that women both could and would learn. Since Paul later noted that the Ephesian false teachers had gained influence over some of the women (e.g., 2 Tim. 3:6-7), it seems he knew it was important that they be well grounded in the Scriptures. The manner in which women were to learn is twofold. First, they should learn "in quietness" (en hsuchia). The word hsuchia and its related forms occur only 11 times in the New Testament. The meaning of hsuchia ranges from "silence" (Acts 22:2) to "rest, quietness" (1 Tim. 2:2; 2 Thess. 3:12). The translation "quietness" is best here, since it would have been normal for women to speak in the worship assembly (1 Cor. 11:5; 14:26). The next phrase, "in all submissiveness," seems to underscore the idea that Paul's emphasis in this passage is on the attitude of heart that is to accompany learning, and includes respectfulness and receptiveness to direction.

[Evangelist]

(part 4)
The question then arises concerning to what or to whom a woman is to be submissive.
There are at least three possibilities. First, it may mean that a woman is to be submissive to her husband. While this truth is taught elsewhere (Eph. 5:22; Col. 3:18; Titus 2:5), such a meaning is unlikely here, where the focus is on men and women as worshipers. Second, Paul may have meant that a woman is to be submissive to the church elders. Since false teachers were leading believers astray, submission to church elders may have been part of Paul's solution to that problem. A third possibility, closely related to the second, is that women are to submit themselves to sound doctrine. Either of the last two views provides an adequate explanation. A combination of these two views is also possible: women were to submit themselves only to those elders who taught sound doctrine. Women in the worship assembly are to receive instruction with an attitude of quiet receptivity and submissiveness. The emphasis here seems to be not so much on literal silence as on an inner attitude in which the spirit is at rest in submitting to the teaching (and the teachers) in the assembly.
Paul continued his instruction by stating, "I do not permit" (ouk epitrepo). Some writers suggest that Paul used this term to express a personal preference. Other interpreters argue that the statement is to be considered binding on the church. The latter view is preferable for two reasons. The first reason concerns the use of epitrepo in 1 Corinthians 14:34. There Paul stated that—in the situation envisioned in that verse—women were not permitted to speak; and in verse 37 he underscored the importance of this injunction by saying, "The things which I write to you are the Lord's commandment" (a reference to 1 Cor. 14:26-36, which includes his directive in v. 34). Second, Paul was most probably using his own personal authority to back up the prohibition of 1 Timothy 2:12 in the same way he did elsewhere. In 1 Corinthians 11:16, for example, he used his personal authority as the basis for reaffirming an approved practice that was common throughout first-century churches. Paul wrote that women should not be involved in two aspects of the public worship assembly: They are neither "to teach or exercise authority over a man." In this much-disputed statement several points need to be clarified.
In verse 12, then, Paul explained that women are permitted neither to teach men nor to exercise authority over men in the worship assembly. Instead, as he had already directed in verse 11, they are to receive instruction with an inner attitude of quietness and submission to the truth of God's Word (and His chosen teachers). The real question now, is why? In light of his references to other women who taught, why does he seem to change?

Paul continued his discussion by giving two reasons why he is instructing women in the worship assembly to learn in a quiet and submissive manner rather than to hold a position of teaching and exercising authority over a man and he does that
by making pointed reference to something that is very important to God.
In verses 13 and 14 Paul refers to the Genesis accounts of the creation and Fall of mankind. Paul uses a common rabbinic
method of referring to the Old Testament, a method known as summary citation. He uses the summary statement in
1 Timothy 2:13 to point the reader to the entire passage describing the creation of man and woman (Gen. 2:4-24), and in 1
Timothy 2:14 he referred back to the account detailing the Fall (Gen. 3:1-25). Paul was not limiting his focus to two specific,
isolated thoughts; rather, he was drawing on two complete narratives.
In typical rabbinic fashion, Paul was making an analogical application based on the Genesis text. He was stating that
according to the Genesis 2 account, Adam was first created; and the implication is that Adam's chronological primacy in creation carried with it some degree of authority.
Paul was not saying that the Genesis account teaches the ontological superiority of the male over the female. Nor was
he stating that his prohibition on women teaching is found in the Genesis account. He is, however, showing how his instruction harmonizes with the design of the Creator in this world, and how the Creator looked to Adam to give response, and be responsible for what had gone wrong. The unstated application of his argument, then, is that just as in creation the final authority rested with the man, so in the church this order should be maintained.
In Genesis 3, the serpent tempted the woman to disobey God by eating of the fruit that had been forbidden to her. The
serpent deceived her and she ate. Immediately after her own fall into sin she offered the forbidden fruit to her husband. He
willingly ate and also fell into sin. In this scene a reversal of roles has occurred. The ultimate responsibility before God rested with Adam, who allowed himself to be knowingly led astray by his wife.
That God considered Adam ultimately responsible, rather than Eve, is clear not only from Romans 5:12, which states that
"through one man sin entered into the world," but also by the fact that the all-knowing God first asked not Eve but Adam to
explain his actions. Further, in Genesis 3:17, God told Adam that the curse would come on the earth "because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it.'" The term "listened to" means "obeyed" in this case, as it often does in the Hebrew Old Testament.
Paul's point is that this role reversal that caused such devastation at the beginning must not be repeated in the church.
The woman must not be the one who leads the man in obedience to her. Thus when the teaching of the Word of God in the
assembly occurs, a qualified male elder should fill the role of teacher.
In the 14th chapter of First Corinthians, we see a similar utterance from Paul, where he says: “let your women keep
silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also
saith the law”.
Apparently the situation here in Corinth was similar in nature to that at Ephesus, but far more clearly defined. Pauls dissertation on gifts, and especially on the speaking in tongues fairly well defines the existence of a major problem within the assembly. Because of this, it may be fairly extrapolated that the dictums of “keeping silent” were more cultural in nature.
Some even go so far as to say it applies only to that particular church.
The problem with this that does arise is Paul’s further statement in 1 Cor. 14:37, where he says:”if any man think himself
to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the
Lord.”
This in itself tends to take these commands out of the realm of applying only to one church (a cultural
interpretation/application), and establishes that they are reasonably expected to be applied in all.
But we still have a major problem to consider. How could Paul acknowledge certain women as teachers, prophetesses,
servants (deaconesses) and leaders of the church, and commend them for their roles, while commanding that women keep
silent?

[Evangelist]

(FINALLY!! THE END    )

Go back to the passage in Timothy, where Paul goes out of his way to draw the parallels between the creation/fall
account, and his descriptions of how women (and men) were to act in the assembly.
First, Paul establishes the order of creation, which is further carried out in the ancient Jewish laws of primogeniture.
These laws established several things. The firstborn was privy to certain additional rights and privileges, but was also constrained by certain responsibilities. The eldest was responsible to the patriarch for the actions and well-being of younger siblings, as well as carrying out certain duties that the others were exempted from. Responsibility is the key word here, and is clearly spelled out in the account of the fall of Adam. While Eve was deceived (contrast with Paul’s talk about women being led astray), Adam willingly disobeyed. And when God called them to account, He did NOT ask Eve to explain her deception....
He required the answer from Adam.
Also, Paul speaks about the heart attitude of both men and women, and that attitude was to be one of subservience,
humility, and meekness (teachability).
It would then appear that while women can, and should, minister in the Church of Christ, there are certain “rules of
order” that should be apparent to all, and in place before that ministry can be blessed of God.
First, no person, man or woman, should be a novice, or newcomer to the faith (1 Tim. 3:6). Second, they should hold the
faith (and its doctrines) in a pure manner (1 Tim. 3:9). Third, they should be held in high esteem by those who are not in the
faith (1 Tim. 3:7). Fourth, they should be married (1 Tim. 3:2), have a family that is also in the faith (1 Tim. 3:4), and have been proven in ministry PRIOR to being given any office (1 Tim. 3:10).
If a woman should desire the office of deacon, elder, pastor or teacher, she should be subject to all of these just as much
as any man, and further, should assume such a role ONLY as being subject to, and in subjection to, her husbandas the spiritual head of the family. This, and this alone, fits the apparent pattern decreed by God, and referenced by Paul.
Women who minister apart from, or in contravention to these “rules” run the very real risk of being found to fight against
God.
I’ll make further note here for those in churches who will not heed these words, either for or against. Many churches
today who make a firm stance against women in minstry should look to their own laundry first. When they are full of deacons and elders who are twice, thrice, or even four times married and divorced, have unsaved family members, or are actively involved in illicit and illegal affairs (business and personal), then they have no right or place to command obedience to scripture.
My final note: it is my opinion that no man is called into any ministry, regardless of what term is applied to it, without his wife (if married) ALSO being called....simply, it (ministry) cannot be done effectively without the absolute and full cooperation and dedication of both parties to the daunting task set before them. Husbands and wives are co-pastors whether called that or not, because each has a function to fulfill that the other cannot in fulfilling the requirements of effective pastoral work.

Now, I'm fully aware that most, if not all, will disagree....those who want full freedom and equality will say it's not enough....those who are chauvinist pigs will say it's too liberal.

The Word says what the Word says....nothing more, nothing less...and it certainly doesn't depend on whether we like it, or agree with it, or not.

[Symphony]

Originally, above,  It's not that I want to become a pastor myself, but rather I am considering attending a church (on a regular basis) that has a man and his wife as joint pastors.

Where in the Bible should I look to answer this question? I just need some general guidance, so I can do some more research. I want to find not only straightforward verse references, but a believable context also.

Paul mentions twice that he does not allow women to minister, or have authority over men, in the church, in the Epistles.

Certainly there are plenty of examples of women, in OT and NT, of being very active and instrumental in the body of believers.

In the OT, they were even leaders.  Tho I should stress that 'leadership' in any biblical context, OT or NT, is anything but leadership as our Gentile, or secular world understands it.

Leadership in the biblical sense is very much servanthood or, even slavehood.  Moses quite literally was a 'slave' in service to the Lord and to the people; so were many if not all of the prophets.

Paul used this same imagery, of slavehood, or 'bondslave', in describing Christian service, in the NT.

Jesus certainly practiced it by washing the desciples feet.  Here He is our King, and He's washing our feet.

Still, even biblical 'leaders' do still very much exercise authority over the brethren.

So a couple, up in the pulpit, husband and wife, is a definite danger sign to me.  The obvious question:  "Who's wearing the pants?"  

Women - or fallen women, which is the only kind down here - are as subject to evil as men, but in different ways.  They have wiles that a man can't match.

A woman in the pulpit w. a man is a definite red flag.  B/c you have to ask, Who's in charge here?  And you always have that thread of doubt.

A woman in the pulpit by herself is equally a red flag - unless there aren't any men around.

This is why you see the Episcopal Church caving on the gay issue.

"You didn't say anything when we began ordaining women(in 1976)", said their apologists, last year, when they announced their new gay sympathies.   Thereby admitting their guilt on both counts - ordaining women, and now, gays.

Separately, the Missour synod of the Lutheran church, as I understand it, draws the line at ordination.

I.e., women can be active and instrumental up to but not including actual ordination.  

So apparently, there can be lay women ministers in the Mo. Synod Lutheran Church.


But generally, women ministers, in authority over men, just prima facie opens the door, then, to gay ministers.  The female pscyche is just typically more sympathetic to the gay argument, and before you know it, you have wholesale debauchery, which is where all or most of our 'churches' are headed, now.

Mainly b/c so many of them are compromising on every form of debate or argument, for the sake of employment, or financial advantage, mainly.

[Brother Love]

Quote  Symphony  




So a couple, up in the pulpit, husband and wife, is a definite danger sign to me.  The obvious question:  "Who's wearing the pants?"  

I LOVE IT Bro

You get "TWO"Thumbs UP

[Brother Love]

We must remember as King Saul found." To obey is better than to sacrifice ." No matter how capable a woman may be in some areas of secular life she is under Gods government in the church.

[Brother Love]

Remember Eve did not care what God said... she gave into her passions.

[AvgJoe]

Let's try this again.  Anyone who would like to comment on this topic is quite welcome to do so.  Hopefully we will not have anymore non-topic related comments.

Grace and peace.

My 2 cents...

In a social climate of complete equality in all things, the biblical teaching of only allowing men to be pastors and elders is not popular. Many feminist organizations denounce this position as antiquated and chauvinistic. In addition, many Christian churches have adopted the "politically correct" social standard and have allowed women pastors and elders in the church. But the question remains, is this biblical?

My answer to this question is, "No, women are not to be pastors and elders." Many may not like that answer, but it is, I believe, an accurate representation of the biblical standard. You make the decision after reading this paper.
   
First of all, women are under-appreciated and under-utilized in the church. There are many gifted women who might very well do a better job at preaching and teaching than many men. However, it isn't gifting that is the issue, but God's order and calling. What does the Bible say? We cannot come to God's word with a social agenda and make it fit our wants. Instead, we must change and adapt to what it says.

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, the garden of Eden, and Adam and Eve. He put Adam in the garden and gave him the authority to name all the animals. Afterwards, God made Eve as a helper to Adam.(1) This is an important concept because Paul refers to the order of creation in his epistle to Timothy when he discusses the relationship between men and women in the church context. Let's take a look.

"But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being quite deceived, fell into transgression" (1 Tim. 2:12-14 -- all quotes from the Bible are from the NASB). This passage has several interesting areas of discussion, but for our purpose we will focus on authority. At the very least, there is an authority structure set up by God. The woman is not to have authority over the man in the church context. But this does not extend to the political/economic world. In the Old Testament Deborah was a judge in Israel over men. Also, in the New Testament, Phoebe played an important role in the church at Cenchrea (Romans 16). There is no doubt that women supported Paul in many areas and were great helpers in the church (Act 2:17; 18:24; 21:. But what Paul is speaking of in 1 Tim. 2 is the relationship between men and women in the church structure, not in a social or political context.

When we look further at Paul's teachings we see that the bishop/overseer is to be the husband of one wife (1 Tim. 3:2) who manages his household well and has a good reputation (1 Tim. 3:4-5, 7). Deacons must be "men of dignity"(1 Tim. 3:. Paul then speaks of women in verse 11 and their obligation to receive instruction. Then in verse 12, Paul says "Let deacons be husbands of one wife..." Again, in Titus 1:5-7, Paul says, "For this reason I left you in Crete, that you might set in order what remains, and appoint elders in every city as I directed you, namely, if any man be above reproach, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of dissipation or rebellion. For the overseer must be above reproach as God's steward..." Notice that Paul interchanges the word 'elder' and 'overseer'.

In each case, the one who is an elder, deacon, bishop, or overseer is instructed to be male. He is the husband of one wife, responsible, able to "exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict" (Titus 1:9). We see no command for the overseers to be women. On the contrary, women are told to be "dignified, not malicious gossips, but temperate, faithful in all things" (1 Tim. 3:11). Why is it that it is the men who are singled out as the overseers? It is because of the created order of God that Paul references (Gen. 1-2; 1 Tim. 2:12-14). This is not merely a social custom that fell away with ancient Israel.

Additionally, in the Old Testament in over 700 mentions of priests, every single one was a male. There is not one instance of a female priest. This is significant because priests were ordained by God to hold a very important office of ministering the sacrifices. This was not the job of women.

Therefore, from what I see in Genesis 1-2, 1 Timothy 2, and Titus 1, the normal and proper person to hold the office of elder/pastor is to be a man.

[AvgJoe]

What About Galatians 3:28?

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus," (Gal. 3:28).

This verse is often used to support the idea that women can hold the offices of elder and pastor because there is neither male nor female in Christ. The argument states that if we are all equal, then women can be pastors.

Unfortunately, those who use this verse this way have failed to read the context. Verse 23 talks about being under the Law "before faith came" and how we are brought closer to Jesus and have become sons of God by faith. We are no longer under law, but grace and we are "Abraham's offspring, heirs according to the promise," (v. 29).(2) The point of this passage is that we are all saved by God's grace according to the promise of God and that it doesn't matter who you are, Jew, Greek, slave, free, male, or female. All are saved the same way, by grace. In that, there is neither male nor female.

This verse is not talking about church structure. It is talking about salvation "in Christ." It cannot be used to support women as pastors because that isn't what it is talking about. Instead, to find out about church structure and leadership, you need to go to those passages that talk about it: 1 Timothy 2 and Titus 1.

Being a Pastor or Elder is to be in Authority

God is a God of order and balance. He has established order within the family (Gen. 3:16; 1 Cor. 11:3; Eph. 5:22-33; Col. 3:18-21 ) and the church (1 Tim. 2:11-14; 1 Cor. 11:8-9). Even within the Trinity there is an order, a hierarchy. The Father sent the Son (John 6:38) and both the Father and the Son sent the Holy Spirit (John 14:26; 15:26). Jesus said, "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me," (John 6:38). It is clear that God is a God of order and structure.

In creation, God made Adam first and then Eve to be his helper. This is the order of creation. It is this order that Paul mentions in 1 Tim. 2:11-14 when speaking of authority. Being a pastor or an elder is to be in the place of authority. Therefore, within the church, for a woman to be a pastor or elder, she would be in authority of men in the church which contradicts what Paul says in 1 Tim. 2:11-14.

But Doesn't This Teaching Belittle Women?

No, male leadership does not belittle women. Jesus was given his authority by God the Father (Matt. 28:18). He was sent by God (John 6:38). He said the Father was greater than He (John 14:28). Did this belittle Jesus? Of course not. Women are of great value in the church and need to be used more and more according to the gifts given them.

Does the wife's submission to the husband mean that she is less than the husband, less important, or belittled? Again, not at all. Not having a place of leadership in the church does not mean a woman is less of a person, less important to God, or inferior. All are equal before God whether it be Jew, Gentile, free, slave, male, or female. But in the church, God has set up an order the same way he set one up in the family.  The chain of command is Jesus, the man, the wife, and the children.

What About Women Who Say They are Called By God to Be Pastors?

There are women pastors in the world who love their congregations and have stated that they are called by God to be pastors. Of course, I cannot agree with this considering the previous analysis of the biblical position. Instead, I believe they have usurped the position of men and gone against the norm of scriptural revelation.  Additionally, those who state that they are called by God because of the great job they are doing and the gifting they have received are basing their theology upon experience and not scripture.

The issue is simple: are they submitting to the word of God or are they making the word of God submit to their desires?

What About a Missionary Woman Who Establishes a Church?

Scripture establishes the norm. As Christians we apply what we learn from the word, to the situations at hand. So, what about the situation where a woman missionary has converted a group of people, say in the jungle somewhere, and she has established a church?  In that church, she is then functioning as a pastor and teacher having authority over men in the church. Should she not do this?

First of all, she should not be out there alone.  She should be with her husband or, at the very least, under the oversight of a church body in the presence of other women and men.  Missionary work is not a lone endeavor to be handled by single women.

Second, if in some highly unusual set of circumstances there is a woman in a lone situation, it is far more important that the word of God be preached and the gospel of salvation go forth to the lost than not. Whether it be male or female, let the gospel be spoken. However, I would say that as soon as there is/are males mature enough to handle eldership, that she should then establish the proper order of the church as revealed in scripture and thereby, show her submission to it.

Does this also mean that women shouldn't wear jewelry?

"Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments; 10 but rather by means of good works, as befits women making a claim to godliness. 11 Let a woman quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve," (1 Tim. 2:9-13).

Some argue that if we are to forbid women to be elders then the context of 1 Tim. 2:9-13 demands that we require women to no have braided hair, wear gold, or have costly garments.  Since no one wants to put that sort of a demand on a woman (since it is cultural), then why should we also demand that they not be elders since it would logically follow that it was also a culturally based admonition?

The problem here is that multifaceted.  First, the objection ignore what the scriptures plainly teach about the elder being the husband of one wife.  Second, it fails to address the real issue of biblical headship residing in the male.  Third, it fails to properly exegete the scripture in question.

In 1 Tim. 2:9-13  Paul tells us that women should be modestly dressed.  He uses the example of then present day adornment as an example of what not to do, definitely culturally based assessment by Paul.  Notice that Paul emphasizes good works and godliness as a qualifier (as does Peter, see 1 Pet. 3:2).  This is not a doctrinal statement tied to anything other than being a godly woman in appearance as well as attitude.

In verse 11, Paul says that a woman should quietly receive instruction.  Please note that "The word, heµsychia, translated “quietness” in 1 Timothy 2:11 and silent in verse 12, does not mean complete silence or no talking. It is clearly used elsewhere (Acts 22:2; 2 Thes. 3:12) to mean “settled down, undisturbed, not unruly.  A different word (sigaoµ) means “to be silent, to say nothing” (cf. Luke 18:39; 1 Cor. 14:34).”3  Paul is advocating orderliness in this verse.

Then in verse 12-13, Paul says, "But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve."  Notice that Paul directly relates the authority issue with the created order.  He does not do this with the woman's dress code.  Therefore, the dress code can be seen as cultural and the authority issue as doctrinal since the later is tied to the creation order and the dress code and authority issue are not, especially since they are separated by the conjunction "but" which is showing contrast, i.e., here we have one thing, but over here we have another.

Conclusion

God's word clearly tells us that the elder is to be the husband of one wife.  A woman cannot qualify for this position by virtue of her being female.  Whether anyone likes it or not is irrelevant to the fact that this is what the Bible teaches.    


_______________________

1. An important note here is that the Holy Spirit is also called the Helper and is no less God than Jesus and the Father.
2. The Promise is God's promise to Abraham to bless all the nations in Him (Gen. 12:3; Gal. 3:.
3.  Walvoord, John F., and Zuck, Roy B., The Bible Knowledge Commentary, (Wheaton, Illinois: Scripture Press Publications, Inc.) 1983, 1985.