When did the Dispensation of Grace Start?

[BigD]

Mat 27:51 says nothing that the Jew and Gentile were now on equal footing and without distinction. Peter confirms this in Acts 10:28. He was never shown prior to Acts 10 that the Gentile was not longer to be considered "unclean."

Why was the veil rent? What was the meaning of it's rending?

Peter wasn't shown, but Phillip was. A non-jew, even though a proselyte, was still considered by the Jews to be a gentile. Such was their status that they were prohibited entry into the temple to any place other than the court of the gentiles.

What was the meaning of the words "...and were added to the CHURCH daily such as should be saved..."  at a time when Saul was still "breathing out threatenings and slaughters". ?

BigD responds:
I cannot find any Scriptural passage that tell us why the veil of the temple was rent. One thing it did show though - that God was not in the Holy of Holies.

FYI a Gentile that became a proselyte was considered a Jew and was required to observe ALL the Civil, Moral and Ceremonial Laws of Moses and a beneficiary of all the promises to the Jews/Israel. Also, the curses.

The Chruch at Pentecost was a Jewish Church. Pentecost was a Jewish feast day and Peter was addressing only Jews and proselytes from many countries. See Acts 28-10.

Those "added to the church daily" were from among the crowd of Jewish believers that Peter was addressing.

Evangelist, if you believe that the Jews and Gentiles were on equal footing, without distinction and not under the Law; prior to Saul/Paul being raised up, give me your proof text. I will not accept anything less. PLEASE don't read the revelations to Paul into the Gospels and the book of the Acts into Scripture prior to Paul's conversion. That would be like reading the Laws of Moses into the Garden of Eden, or reading the battles of WWII into the battles of WWI. That is a NO NO!!!

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

[mkelliott9]

I guess that the thing we have to realize about the Day of Pentecost, is that :
     1) It is a Jewish holiday
     2) It is a fullfilment of prophecy
                John 16:7-14; Joel 2:28-32
Not only is this evident by studying the scriptures and rightly dividing them, but Peter tells the believers there at Penetecost that this is a fullfilment of prophecy.

No where in prophecy is the church, the Body of Christ ever talked about.

And Paul states in Ephesians that God him the revelation of the dispensation of grace.  Eph. 3

[BigD]

I guess that the thing we have to realize about the Day of Pentecost, is that :
     1) It is a Jewish holiday
     2) It is a fullfilment of prophecy
                John 16:7-14; Joel 2:28-32
Not only is this evident by studying the scriptures and rightly dividing them, but Peter tells the believers there at Penetecost that this is a fullfilment of prophecy.

No where in prophecy is the church, the Body of Christ ever talked about.

And Paul states in Ephesians that God him the revelation of the dispensation of grace.  Eph. 3

BigD responds:

AMEN BROTHER, and thanks.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

[AJ]

mkelliott9 says...No where in prophecy is the church, the Body of Christ ever talked about.

Thats not really true brother.. Paul said that this mystery was revealed to the holy apostles and prophets by the spirit. No prophecy or revelation is of any private interpretation but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the holy ghost.

You will not find the word Body of Christ in the OT... but the prophecies are there for the salvation of the lord to also come to the Gentiles. Which of coarse is the same thing...and Paul also mentions these prophecies in the new testament.


Eph 3:4  Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Eph 3:5  Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Eph 3:6  That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:



Rom 16:25  Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:


Matthew 12:17  That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
Matthew 12:18  Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
Matthew 12:19  He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets.
Mat 12:20  A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.
Mat 12:21  And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.


Rom 15:8  Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises [made] unto the fathers:
Rom 15:9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for [his] mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.
Rom 15:10  And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.
Rom 15:11  And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.
Rom 15:12  And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.


Thats some on this mystery and the Prophets....  

God Bless you

[BigD]

PART I
mkelliott posted:

No where in prophecy is the church, the Body of Christ ever talked about.

AJ responded:

Thats not really true brother.. Paul said that this mystery was revealed to the holy apostles and prophets by the spirit. No prophecy or revelation is of any private interpretation but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the holy ghost.

BigD responds:
AJ, you are taking two verses in Scripture, written to two (2) different groups, as if they both applied to them.

How does Matthew 27:5 connected up with Luke 10:37 appeal to you?  vers 5 speaks of Judas "...and departed, and went and hanged himself." "Jesus said unto him, Go, and do thou likewise."

You statement "Paul said that this mystery was revealed to the holy apostles and prophets by the spirit" comes from Ephesians 3:5. which is prefaced with  "WHICH IN OTHER AGES WAS NOT MADE KNOW UNTO THE SONS OF MEN AS IS NOW REVEALED..."

Paul certainly could not have been talking about the 12 apostles and OT prophets. How could they know if it had not made know until we get to the Apostle Paul? Paul is talking about his co-laborers, i.e. Barnabas, Titus, Andronicus Junia, Sosthenese, Apollos, Epaphroditus, Silas and Timothy. (I may have even missed some others.)

"No prophecy or revelation is of any private interpretation but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the holy ghost." 2 Peter 1:20.

Peter is writing his fellow countrymen with whom he agreed, with Paul, to stay with in Galatians 2:9 - the Jews that were saved through the preaching of "the gospel of the kingdom."

2Peter1:20 What vs 20 is really saying is that no prophecy of Scripture is of anyone's own private origination (interpretive composition), but holy men of God were moved by the Holy Spirit and wrote down God- chosen, God breathed words.

AJ continues:

You will not find the word Body of Christ in the OT... but the prophecies are there for the salvation of the lord to also come to the Gentiles. Which of coarse is the same thing...and Paul also mentions these prophecies in the new testament.

Eph 3:4  Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Eph 3:5  Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Eph 3:6  That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Rom 16:25  Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

BigD responds:
Again, Paul could not have been speaking of OT prophets; for reasons stated above.

According to God's promise to Abram and the OT prophesies, Salvation was go to the Gentiles THROUGH Abram's seed Israel. In the OT and through the gospels and first part of Acts, if a Gentile wanted to serve the true and living God, that Gentile had to become a Jew (proselyte), and place themselves under the Civi, Moral and Ceremonial Laws of Moses. They have an earthly kingdom to look forward to.

Since the setting aside of Israel, God MADE the "one new man" of Ephesians 2:15. Believe Jews and Gentiles NOW make up "the Body of Christ." We are not under the Laws of Moses. The Civil, Moral and Ceremonial Laws to now apply to members of the Body of Christ. Also, we have a heavenly home to look forward to.

AJ posted:

Matthew 12:17  That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
Matthew 12:18  Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
Matthew 12:19  He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets.
Mat 12:20  A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.
Mat 12:21  And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.

BigD responds:
Jesus is quoting Isaiah 42:1-4 which is speaking of the time when their Messiah comes as a righteous judge and judges the Gentile nations. This will happen at the 2nd coming of Christ.

To be cont'd in PART II

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord.

[BigD]

PART II
AJ continues:

Rom 15:8  Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises [made] unto the fathers:
Rom 15:9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for [his] mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.
Rom 15:10  And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.
Rom 15:11  And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.
Rom 15:12  And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

BigD responds:
To respond to the above verses, I will take from  volume 2 "A Commentary Of ROMANS Based On The Greek New Testament", by Ernest R. Campbell. I will delete the words written in the Greek Language and will put () where a Greek word was deleted.

8. "For Ι say that Christ has been made a minister of the circumcisionon behalf of the truth of God, unto the end to confirm the promises of thefathers,"

The main Greek verb in this verse is in the aorist tense and passive voice. It succinctly states the fact that God the Father has made (constituted, and established Christ a minister of the circumcision. In other words, Christ did not assume this position Himself, but it was bestowed upon Him by God the Father.

Now let us examine the fact that Christ was made "α minister of the circumcision." The Greek noun translated "minister" ( basically means one who serves, waits on, or attends others. Paul commonly uses this word with reference to himself and those teaching and preaching the gospel with him. In the verse before us He uses it with this same general meaning; Christ was a minister, teacher, and preacher of the Gospel of the kingdom proclaimed to the Jews (Matt. 4:17, 23; 10:25).

Those to whom Christ ministered are called the "circumcision" (). The covenant which God made with Abraham included the rite of circumcision (Genesis 17:10-11; Rom. 4:11). Since Abraham's seed, the Jews, practiced circumcision, in process of time this word became their proper name (Gal. 2:9).

The reason Christ was made a minister of the circumcision was "on behalf of the truth of God." The basic meaning of the preposition "()" is on behalf of, for the sake of, and concerning the truth of God. What does the phrase "the truth of God" () mean as used in this context? The final statement in this verse makes it clear that what Paul has in mind is Old Testament truth which pertains to the prophesied Messianic Kingdom. Jesus proclaimed this truth in the Synoptic gospels (cf. Matt. 22:16; 3:2; 4:23; 9:25). This same truth is also the message of the first eight chapters in the Book of Acts (3:18-26).

The primary object of Jesus Christ's earthly ministry was not to bring into being a spiritual organism, the Church, but "to confirm the promises of the fathers." In Genesis 12:1-3 God promises Abraham that he will be the progenitor of a great nation and that in him all the families of the earth will be blessed. As theprophetic Old Testament unfolds, it is obvious that this blessing will come via the establishment of a righteous kingdom upon the earth over which one in the lineage of David will reign (Psa. 22:27-28; 145:11-13; Isa. 32:1; 33:17-22; Jer. 23:5-8).

9. "and the Gentiles on behalf of mercy to glorify God; even as it has been written, On account of this Ι will confess you among the Gentiles, and Ι will sing to your name."

Before we can accurately exegete the truth from this verse, we must recognize that it expands Christ's ministry to include the Gentiles. The flow of thought through these two verses seems to be as follows: Christ is a minister of the Jews on behalf of the truth of God to fulfill the promises, and He is a minister of the Gentiles on behalf of the mercy of God.

On the basis of the promises God had made to the forefathers of the Jews, He obligated Himself to send Christ as a special minister unto them, i.e., to establish the promised Kingdom, which has been temporarily rejected. Likewise, in the present Church age, on the basis of the fact that God predestined and foreordained individuals to be saved, He obligated Himself to also send Christ to minister to Gentiles.

Now that Christ's earthly ministry, including the Cross, was rejected by Israel in the first seven chapters of the Book of Acts, God in His grace saved Saul of Tarsus preparatory to revealing the Truth for the Church. Christ's Church ministry to individual Gentiles, as we have it in this verse, does not begin until after the climactic death of Stephen, and even then it gradually replaces the Kingdom message.

It is exceedingly important that we grasp the significance of the word "mercy" () in this verse. First, it is inseparable from the love of God; in fact, love is its forerunner (Eph. 2:4). Second, it is the basis for God's redemptive program in this present dispensation of Grace. Sinners are not saved by their human wills nor by their human works, but as a result of the mercy of God (9:16). During this age of Grace God declares that all Jews and Gentiles are disobedient; they are sinners. But the good news is that He has mercy on all (11:32).

Whereas verse 8 pertains to the presentation and offer of the Messianic Kingdom to the nation of Israel, the truth in verse 9 is pertinent for both individual Jews and Gentiles. According to Titus 3:5 God "saved us according to his mercy." As a result of God saving us by His mercy, we are made capable "to glorify" () Him and have something for which to glorify Him, namely, our eternal salvation in Christ (cf. 9:23-24).

In the Book of Ephesians Paul says that the Gentiles are "fellow-citizens with the saints and the family of God." He cites the Mystery revealed unto him as his authority for saying that the Gentiles are on a par with the Jews in the Body of Christ (Eph. 2:19; 3:2-9). In the verse before us Paul quotes portions from the Old Testament which indicate that the Gentiles will share with the Lord's people, Israel. We suggest that he is using this evidence to corroborate truth revealed to him via the Mystery, particularly, to allay Jewish feeling against Gentile Body members.

The portion of the quotation which appears in this ninth verse conveys the thought that the name of the Lord will be openly confessed among the Gentiles, and His name will be the object of singing.

10. "And again He says, Υου rejoice, Gentiles, with his people."

The main reason for quoting this passage is because it depicts a happy union between the Gentiles and Jews. It would be hard for the Jewish believer, even though prejudiced, to refute this kind of corroborating evidence.

11. "And again, Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles, and let all the people praise him."

This quotation is apparently taken from Psalm 117:1. It is an exhortation for all Gentiles and all peoples to praise the Lord. Since God is the one ordering the Gentiles to praise the Lord, even a cynical Jew would be hard-pressed to refute it.

12. "And again Isaiah says, There shall be the root of Jesse, even the one who rises up to rule the Gentiles; on him the Gentiles will hope."

This quotation comes from Isaiah 11:10. The thought here is that one in David's lineage will rule the Gentiles, namely, Christ, in whom the Gentiles will place their hope. Let us remember, Paul began this series of quotations from the Old Testament to confirm Christ's ministry to the elect among the Gentiles (2 Tim. 2:10). He ends the series with the declaration that Christ will ultimately rule over the Gentiles and that He will be the object of their hope. Even though these quotations primarily refer to the part the Gentiles will have in Christ's world-wide earthly Kingdom, Paul also uses them in a secondary manner to affirm that the Gentiles are an important part of God's people, the Church, during this time of the "fullness of the Gentiles" (11:25).

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord.

[AJ]

BigD says...Paul certainly could not have been talking about the 12 apostles and OT prophets. How could they know if it had not made know until we get to the Apostle Paul? Paul is talking about his co-laborers, i.e. Barnabas, Titus, Andronicus Junia, Sosthenese, Apollos, Epaphroditus, Silas and Timothy. (I may have even missed some others.)

Thats not correct...Paul was talking about ALL the holy apostles and prophets....i also dont see Peters name there as you say i may have missed a few...how could you miss Peter when he and Paul were the first to see this Mystery. I hope your not trying to rob Peter to pay Paul...

This mystery of the grace of God to the Gentiles, was also shown to some of the Prophets. Theres no way to deny it...Period.


Rom 16:25  Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Rom 16:26  But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets,


And by the scriptures of the prophets? like i said...theres no way around this, we can fill the whole board with our wisdom and fancy speaches and doctrines of men... but at the end of the day it is Gods word that has the final say...the wisdom of men is foolishness with God.


1Pe 1:9  Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
1Pe 1:10  Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
1Pe 1:11  Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
1Pe 1:12  Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.


who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

As we see here the prophets prophesied of the grace that should come...


Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us

This is what it means to not reveal it to the sons of men at that time.. but it is now revealed by the Spirit. Many prophets have prophecied and had no idea at that time what God was saying by them...thats why Paul said this mystery was not known unto the sons of men until now...sometimes a prophecy needs to be fulfiled before its compleatly understood, the book of revelation proves that. And thats what Paul was trying to say here,nothing more or nothing less.

Even the angels were looking into it brother...we should do likewise.

Sorry for takeing so long for a reply...now this is enough vain babling for me, im all done with this post...let the word of God be true, and not us...


God bless you brother

[BigD]

BigD posted:

Paul certainly could not have been talking about the 12 apostles and OT prophets. How could they know if it had not made know until we get to the Apostle Paul? Paul is talking about his co-laborers, i.e. Barnabas, Titus, Andronicus Junia, Sosthenese, Apollos, Epaphroditus, Silas and Timothy. (I may have even missed some others.)

AJ responded:
Thats not correct...Paul was talking about ALL the holy apostles and prophets....i also dont see Peters name there as you say i may have missed a few...how could you miss Peter when he and Paul were the first to see this Mystery. I hope your not trying to rob Peter to pay Paul...

This mystery of the grace of God to the Gentiles, was also shown to some of the Prophets. Theres no way to deny it...Period.

Rom 16:25  Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Rom 16:26  But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets,

And by the scriptures of the prophets? like i said...theres no way around this, we can fill the whole board with our wisdom and fancy speaches and doctrines of men... but at the end of the day it is Gods word that has the final say...the wisdom of men is foolishness with God.

BigD replies:
PLEASE explain to me how the OT prophets knew and prophesied what was revealed to Paul which "was kept secret since the world began." That just doesn't make sense to me. Maybe you can show me the Scritpures that say that.
-------------------------------------

AJ goes on:
1Pe 1:9  Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
1Pe 1:10  Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
1Pe 1:11  Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
1Pe 1:12  Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

As we see here the prophets prophesied of the grace that should come...

Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us

This is what it means to not reveal it to the sons of men at that time.. but it is now revealed by the Spirit. Many prophets have prophecied and had no idea at that time what God was saying by them...thats why Paul said this mystery was not known unto the sons of men until now...sometimes a prophecy needs to be fulfiled before its compleatly understood, the book of revelation proves that. And thats what Paul was trying to say here,nothing more or nothing less.

Even the angels were looking into it brother...we should do likewise.

Sorry for takeing so long for a reply...now this is enough vain babling for me, im all done with this post...let the word of God be true, and not us...

BigD responds:
1Pe 1:10 says that "the prophets have searched diligently..." So it is apparent that they really didn't know about it and had to search the Scriptures. What Scriptures do you think that they might have come up with?

1Pe 1:12  Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, WHICH ARE NOW REPORTED unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

It appears that Peter is saying that it wasn't repored before.

In speaking of the mystery, Paul says in Ephesians 3:9 "And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that NOW unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be know by the church the manifold wisdom of God."

God has ALWAYS shown his grace since the fall of ADAM, but it is the dispensation of grace that was "kept secret since the world began." The angels didn't even know about it.

In his book "BASIC BIBLE DOCTRINES", by Donald Webb, he has the following to say about 1 Peter 9-12.

REVELATION IS PROGRESSIVE.
God's revelation is progressive. God did not reveal all the truth at one sitting, but progressively unfolded His truth from the earlier to the later books of the Bible. We do not believe that God revealed stories and myths that eventually ended in truth. We believe that God revealed truth in progressive stages until finally the full secret purpose of His will had been made known. Note Peter's words:

Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you, Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, not unto themselves but unto us they did minister the things which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven, which things the angels desired to look into. (1 Peter 1:9-12).

Even the prophets themselves whom God used to reveal truth awaited further revelation for understanding. As the Lord preached the kingdom program to and through the Twelve Apostles, greater understanding was received. Later through another Apostle (the Apostle Paul) an abundance of revelations was given concerning what God calls "the mystery of His will" in Christ Jesus (Ephesians 1:9).

The Bible is a dispensational book, and "progressive revelation is basic to the dispensational character of the Bible."1 We know that not all the Bible is written to one group of people, nor does all the Bible concern one particular program; but rather, God has dealt with man under several different economies or dispensations. "The fact that one dispensation has succeeded another necessitates added revelation for the succeeding dispensations. In this sense, progressive revelation becomes almost synonymous with dispensationalism."
-------------------------------
I will agree with you, the Word of God is true.

God Bless.

Live Well,  Laugh Often,  Love the Lord!

[Reba]

Gen 6:8

8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
KJV

Gen 19:19

19 Behold now, thy servant hath found grace in thy sight, and thou hast magnified thy mercy, which thou hast shewed unto me in saving my life; and I cannot escape to the mountain, lest some evil take me, and I die:
KJV

Ex 33:12

12 And Moses said unto the LORD, See, thou sayest unto me, Bring up this people: and thou hast not let me know whom thou wilt send with me. Yet thou hast said, I know thee by name, and thou hast also found grace in my sight.
KJV

Ex 33:16-17

16 For wherein shall it be known here that I and thy people have found grace in thy sight? is it not in that thou goest with us? so shall we be separated, I and thy people, from all the people that are upon the face of the earth.

17 And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.
KJV

Ex 34:9-10

9 And he said, If now I have found grace in thy sight, O Lord, let my Lord, I pray thee, go among us; for it is a stiffnecked people; and pardon our iniquity and our sin, and take us for thine inheritance.

10 And he said, Behold, I make a covenant: before all thy people I will do marvels, such as have not been done in all the earth, nor in any nation: and all the people among which thou art shall see the work of the LORD: for it is a terrible thing that I will do with thee.
KJV

 When has His creation been with out grace?

[BigD]

Gen 6:8

8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
KJV

Gen 19:19

19 Behold now, thy servant hath found grace in thy sight, and thou hast magnified thy mercy, which thou hast shewed unto me in saving my life; and I cannot escape to the mountain, lest some evil take me, and I die:
KJV

Ex 33:12

12 And Moses said unto the LORD, See, thou sayest unto me, Bring up this people: and thou hast not let me know whom thou wilt send with me. Yet thou hast said, I know thee by name, and thou hast also found grace in my sight.
KJV

Ex 33:16-17

16 For wherein shall it be known here that I and thy people have found grace in thy sight? is it not in that thou goest with us? so shall we be separated, I and thy people, from all the people that are upon the face of the earth.

17 And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.
KJV

Ex 34:9-10

9 And he said, If now I have found grace in thy sight, O Lord, let my Lord, I pray thee, go among us; for it is a stiffnecked people; and pardon our iniquity and our sin, and take us for thine inheritance.

10 And he said, Behold, I make a covenant: before all thy people I will do marvels, such as have not been done in all the earth, nor in any nation: and all the people among which thou art shall see the work of the LORD: for it is a terrible thing that I will do with thee.
KJV

 When has His creation been with out grace?

BigD responds:
I posted the following in my previous post.

"God has ALWAYS shown his grace since the fall of ADAM, but it is the dispensation of grace that was "kept secret since the world began." The angels didn't even know about it."

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

[Jemidon2004]

AJ:
When I asked you to SHOW ME the Body of Christ prior to the raising up of Saul/Paul, your replied "No problem brother..." Then you failed to SHOW ME.

Therefore, are the one with the problem because you can't SHOW ME.

Also, you say that there is only one Gospel. Well, my Bible reads a little different then your does then.

Galatians 2:7 "But contrariwise, when they say that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter."

Looks like two (2) different gospels to me.

Further, I am not a hyper-dispensationalist or a denominationalist. See my postion on -  Bible Study / Re:IS Matthew Mark Luke and John in the New  on: September 17, 2004, 04:14:43 AM.

Then, if you still think I am a hyper-dispy, then point out to me why I am. I would appreciate that.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!  

WHOA WHOA WHOA... am i'm reading this right. The Bible points that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the TRUE Gospel...how can you then say that there are two gospels? If that's so then by saying that you are insenuating that there is another method of salvation. THERE IS ONE GOSPEL AND IT TELLS ABOUT OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST. you posted from Galatians. Post the whole thing if ur gonna argue there's two Gospels. If you read the whole thing in context, Paul never said that that these were actually Gospels...he used to word to covey that they were in actuality false doctrines...that in no way says that there are two Gospels.

Galatians 2:5
5   To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.
6   But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person:) for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:
7   But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
8   (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)

If i remember correctly there is only one Gospel...only ONE way to heaven, and only one Truth and that's Christ...to say there are two gospels...means something's wrong. just a thought...and on the issue of the OT prophets. They knew Israel was going to be punished....heck they PROPHECIED it. Yet they also prophecied that Israel would be reborn as a nation both physically and spiritually.(And you can't deny that Israel has been reborn as a nation physically, to do that would ignore History) The former has happened...the latter has yet to happen and won't come to ultimate fulfillment until the Millenium.

my time's up...i gotta go pick up my dad...see ya'll soo. God Bless

In Christ,
Joshua

[BigD]

Sorry I have taken so long in responding. I have been out of state for the past week and just returned yesterday afternoon.

AJ:
When I asked you to SHOW ME the Body of Christ prior to the raising up of Saul/Paul, your replied "No problem brother..." Then you failed to SHOW ME.

Therefore, are the one with the problem because you can't SHOW ME.

Also, you say that there is only one Gospel. Well, my Bible reads a little different then your does then.

Galatians 2:7 "But contrariwise, when they say that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter."

Looks like two (2) different gospels to me.

Further, I am not a hyper-dispensationalist or a denominationalist. See my postion on -  Bible Study / Re:IS Matthew Mark Luke and John in the New  on: September 17, 2004, 04:14:43 AM.

Then, if you still think I am a hyper-dispy, then point out to me why I am. I would appreciate that.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!  

WHOA WHOA WHOA... am i'm reading this right. The Bible points that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the TRUE Gospel...how can you then say that there are two gospels? If that's so then by saying that you are insenuating that there is another method of salvation. THERE IS ONE GOSPEL AND IT TELLS ABOUT OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST. you posted from Galatians. Post the whole thing if ur gonna argue there's two Gospels. If you read the whole thing in context, Paul never said that that these were actually Gospels...he used to word to covey that they were in actuality false doctrines...that in no way says that there are two Gospels.

Galatians 2:5
5   To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.
6   But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person:) for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:
7   But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
8   (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)

If i remember correctly there is only one Gospel...only ONE way to heaven, and only one Truth and that's Christ...to say there are two gospels...means something's wrong. just a thought...and on the issue of the OT prophets. They knew Israel was going to be punished....heck they PROPHECIED it. Yet they also prophecied that Israel would be reborn as a nation both physically and spiritually.(And you can't deny that Israel has been reborn as a nation physically, to do that would ignore History) The former has happened...the latter has yet to happen and won't come to ultimate fulfillment until the Millenium.

my time's up...i gotta go pick up my dad...see ya'll soo. God Bless

In Christ,
Joshua

BigD responds:
FYI the word "gospel" simply means "good news". I cannot find the "good news" (gospel) of the Cross prior to the raising up of the Apostle Paul. Had it been known, satan would have "worked like the devil" to keep Christ from the Cross (see 1Cor2:8,9).

Nowhere from Adam to Moses can I find that the good news (gospel) of the Law. From the giving of the Law to Moses until the raising up of the Apostle Paul can I find the good news (gospel) of the Cross, and that mankind was saved apart from the Law and by putting their FAITH and trust in the Cross work of Christ.

From the fall of Adam to the present day; man has always been saved/justified BY FAITH. FAITH in believing and/or doing what God required at that point in time of human history.

From the above, you should be able to see that salvation/justification has ALWAYS been on the basis of FAITH.

However, there are two (2) primary doctrines spoken of in the Bible. They are the doctrine of LAW and GRACE; commonly called "gospels" (good news's).

I did not take Galatians 2:9 out of context. The gospel (good news) of the circumcision was given to those of the circumcision - JEWS. Didn't Jesus say in Matthew 15:24 "I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" ? Doesn't Paul tell us in Romans 15:8 that Jesus came "...to confirm the promises made to the (Jewish) fathers"? Didn't the set aside Gentiles, (prior to the setting aside of Israel), from Genesis 11 have to become Jews (proselytes) to obtain those promises? The gospel (good news) of circumcision was given to Abram/Abraham and was in effect until God set his seed (Isreal) aside. To be uncircumcised at that time meant total seperation from God FOREVER.

The gospel (good news) that Paul preached was the gospel (good news) of "uncircumcision" (GRACE. Doing the deed/works of the Law, BY FAITH, were no longer required. The Gentile no longer had to become a Jew (proselyte) to merit salvation/justification.  Since the "revealation of the mystery" that was given to the Apostle Paul, salvation/justification was FAITH ALONE in the Cross work (death, burial and resurrection) of Christ, APART FROM THE LAW.

The good news (gospel) of the Law is contrary to the good news (gospel) of Grace. Law = observe and do, or pay the penalty. Grace = unmerited favor. When these two doctrines (good news's) are mixed they only bring about confusion and denominations.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

[Brother Love]

Sorry I have taken so long in responding. I have been out of state for the past week and just returned yesterday afternoon.

AJ:
When I asked you to SHOW ME the Body of Christ prior to the raising up of Saul/Paul, your replied "No problem brother..." Then you failed to SHOW ME.

Therefore, are the one with the problem because you can't SHOW ME.

Also, you say that there is only one Gospel. Well, my Bible reads a little different then your does then.

Galatians 2:7 "But contrariwise, when they say that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter."

Looks like two (2) different gospels to me.

Further, I am not a hyper-dispensationalist or a denominationalist. See my postion on -  Bible Study / Re:IS Matthew Mark Luke and John in the New  on: September 17, 2004, 04:14:43 AM.

Then, if you still think I am a hyper-dispy, then point out to me why I am. I would appreciate that.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!  

WHOA WHOA WHOA... am i'm reading this right. The Bible points that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the TRUE Gospel...how can you then say that there are two gospels? If that's so then by saying that you are insenuating that there is another method of salvation. THERE IS ONE GOSPEL AND IT TELLS ABOUT OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST. you posted from Galatians. Post the whole thing if ur gonna argue there's two Gospels. If you read the whole thing in context, Paul never said that that these were actually Gospels...he used to word to covey that they were in actuality false doctrines...that in no way says that there are two Gospels.

Galatians 2:5
5   To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.
6   But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person:) for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:
7   But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
8   (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)

If i remember correctly there is only one Gospel...only ONE way to heaven, and only one Truth and that's Christ...to say there are two gospels...means something's wrong. just a thought...and on the issue of the OT prophets. They knew Israel was going to be punished....heck they PROPHECIED it. Yet they also prophecied that Israel would be reborn as a nation both physically and spiritually.(And you can't deny that Israel has been reborn as a nation physically, to do that would ignore History) The former has happened...the latter has yet to happen and won't come to ultimate fulfillment until the Millenium.

my time's up...i gotta go pick up my dad...see ya'll soo. God Bless

In Christ,
Joshua

BigD responds:
FYI the word "gospel" simply means "good news". I cannot find the "good news" (gospel) of the Cross prior to the raising up of the Apostle Paul. Had it been known, satan would have "worked like the devil" to keep Christ from the Cross (see 1Cor2:8,9).
Nowhere from Adam to Moses can I find that the good news (gospel) of the Law. From the giving of the Law to Moses until the raising up of the Apostle Paul can I find the good news (gospel) of the Cross, and that mankind was saved apart from the Law and by putting their FAITH and trust in the Cross work of Christ.

From the fall of Adam to the present day; man has always been saved/justified BY FAITH. FAITH in believing and/or doing what God required at that point in time of human history.

From the above, you should be able to see that salvation/justification has ALWAYS been on the basis of FAITH.

However, there are two (2) primary doctrines spoken of in the Bible. They are the doctrine of LAW and GRACE; commonly called "gospels" (good news's).

I did not take Galatians 2:9 out of context. The gospel (good news) of the circumcision was given to those of the circumcision - JEWS. Didn't Jesus say in Matthew 15:24 "I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" ? Doesn't Paul tell us in Romans 15:8 that Jesus came "...to confirm the promises made to the (Jewish) fathers"? Didn't the set aside Gentiles, (prior to the setting aside of Israel), from Genesis 11 have to become Jews (proselytes) to obtain those promises? The gospel (good news) of circumcision was given to Abram/Abraham and was in effect until God set his seed (Isreal) aside. To be uncircumcised at that time meant total seperation from God FOREVER.

The gospel (good news) that Paul preached was the gospel (good news) of "uncircumcision" (GRACE. Doing the deed/works of the Law, BY FAITH, were no longer required. The Gentile no longer had to become a Jew (proselyte) to merit salvation/justification.  Since the "revealation of the mystery" that was given to the Apostle Paul, salvation/justification was FAITH ALONE in the Cross work (death, burial and resurrection) of Christ, APART FROM THE LAW.

The good news (gospel) of the Law is contrary to the good news (gospel) of Grace. Law = observe and do, or pay the penalty. Grace = unmerited favor. When these two doctrines (good news's) are mixed they only bring about confusion and denominations.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

Thanks BigD,

AMEN!!!!