homosexuality

[felix102]

I think maybe Ravenloche was looking for some scriptural citations concerning whether or not man was made one way or the other, rather than scripture stating that homosexual relations are bad.

Genesis 1 and 2 would be a good place to start.

"and God made man, and saw that it was good" contrast to the Leviticus verse of that being "not good", which is the same abominable.

"for this cause God made him an helpmeet", and her name was Eve, not Steve.

Rom 1:24   Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25   Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Lust->uncleaness->dishonour->calling white black and truth a lie->loving self.

I know. I'm trying to look for that right now. I just remember that Jesus said something like, "they were just born that way" in regards of a woman who couldn't find a husband. I believe this is somewhere in the word. I can't find it though.    Maybe it was just my imagination. But long ago, this was what lead me to this belief or opinion.

[ravenloche]

I think maybe Ravenloche was looking for some scriptural citations concerning whether or not man was made one way or the other, rather than scripture stating that homosexual relations are bad.

Greetings in the name of our Lord and savior Yeshua!

Evangelist I posted what I did because no one was presenting
any scriptures. I know where the scriptures are in reference
to this topic, but many of the people that read these forums
do not.

I have learned over the years as a pastor, that no matter how
we feel, and no matter what our opinion may be: it is vital to
present the word of God along with our teaching, and or our
preaching."let the word of God be true, and every man a
liar"
2 Tim. 3:16--all scripture is given by inspiration of God , and is
profitable for doctrine, for reproof, and for instruction in
righteousness.
Rom. 10:17--so then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by
the word of God.
Every person born is given a measure of faith. Our duty as
children of God is to present to them the word of God, and
then that measure of faith begins to grow in them until they
come to the realization of the reality of who God is, and what
He has done for us.

respectfully yours in Adonai Yeshua ha Machiach:
(Lord Jesus the Messiah)
  ravenloche  

[C C]

John 13

34"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

I've see so many hundreds of thousands of times people think Christ's words are "By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you JUDGE one another."

Does anyone, at the end of the day sit around thinking, "Lord all day today I have not sinned."

I doubt it.  And yet, if they didn't in fact sin all day, but then thought a thought like then, then their sin would be self-righteousness.  None of us makes it through the day without sinning.

To stand around and sit around and insistently judge each other is not how Christ wants us to show the world that we are his.

Everyone seems to think that if they don't take a judging posture on things, if they don't make judgments about anybody and everybody, then they are not in Christ.  For example, if you hang out with a sinner and you don't sit in judgment on them 24 hours a day, you think that you do not belong to Christ.  

It's enough to know what the laws are so we can measure OURSELVES against them and then pursue our God in trying to please Him in what WE can do internally and externally.  But we do not please God when we sit in judgment and condemnation on others.  If they ask us for guidence, we can show them the scriptures--even if they don't outright ask in a way that says, "Dude, I need guidence."  But I do think it's wrong to sit around in the judgment seat and sit around in the condemner's seat.  We take on Satan's job when we put ourselve in the position where we have to sit around and pick out the sins of others.  

Christ Like Behavior:
Isaiah 43:25
"I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more.

People that sit around judging and pointing out sins are like this:

Ezekiel 33:32
Indeed, to them you are nothing more than one who sings love songs with a beautiful voice and plays an instrument well, for they hear your words but do not put them into practice.

We have to have love and care of sinners because:


Luke 15:7
I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety­nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

In our patience with sinners we can encourage ourselves with:


Romans 5:9
Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!


Hebrews 8:12
For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."[ 8:12 Jer. 31:31­34]

Hebrews 10:17
Then he adds: "Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more."
John 8

"If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

And when you feel like the world is so full of sin that you must sit around and feel sorry for yourself, then remember, YOU STILL CAN'T throw stones because Jesus says, "If anyone of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

Hello, none of us are without sin.

I'm not saying homosexuality is right.  I'm saying condemning them is just as bad as being a homosexual.

It's not by how we judge each other that makes us Christ's diciples, but how we love each other.

I think that none of us can love without the Holy Spirit.  We can have the law and know the law and teach the law and try to apply it in our lives, but without the Holy Spirit, we're Pharasees.  All of us.  Because in order to have eternal life, we need the LIVING WATER.  The law can never save us.

All the folks that are focusing on the law would probably much better of BEING a homosexual, because then they would know their  true need of a Savior.  Then they would understand compassion and just why Christ had to die for our sin.

It's worse to be a Pharasee then to be gay.

Peace

[2nd Timothy]

What about the case of hermaphrodites? They are born with two sexes into one body and there are cases where as a child the physical body was made (surgically) female. When the person grew to adulthood, their mind and emotions were male. That emotional male would desire a woman as a mate, yet was encased in a woman's body.

In this situation, that person would be "gay", no?  That person does have, of course, the choice to remain celibate, and these cases are somewhat rare.

Very tough question Gracey.   Its hard to sort out because we only know who is male or female by their sex at birth.  But how do WE know, even though this individual was surgically altered, they were not "mentally" male all along?    In other words, is there any indication that the "sexual wiring" (for lack of a better term) changed from one to the other?   Or are they functioning based on the way they were wired from birth?  If so, I would say they are not homosexual (lusting after the same flesh or wiring in this case), albeit they have the wrong body.   Terrible to think about.

In this case, would the original person have been made in the image of God?

If being made in the image of God means.....that man, like God has intellect, emotion, moral reasoning, volition (ability of making a choice or decision), and enternity of beingor eternal soul, then I would say they are.   These attributes would fit the said person you have described in spite of the situation.

I find this a most confusing issue. Not whether or not homosexuality is wrong (it is), but whether or not they are born that way. My thinking had always been that if we are created in the "image" of God, then they could not be born that way. But, some are, given the situation I noted above.

It is confusing indeed.   But God being Omnicient, having all knowledge there is to possess could not be taken by surprise with this scenario.   I trust in the Lords understanding more than mine, but as a mere human, I share your quandry with this.

Grace and Peace!

[ravenloche]

Candice: the following is an excerpt from your last post:


I'm not saying homosexuality is right.  I'm saying condemning them is just as bad as being a homosexual.

It's not by how we judge each other that makes us Christ's diciples, but how we love each other.

It's worse to be a Pharasee then to be gay.


I Cor. 6:2&3  do ye not know that the saints shall judge the
world?and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy
to judge the smallest matters?
know ye not that we whall judge angels? how much more
things that pertain to this life?

We do not stand in judgement of anyone, including those who
live in homosexuallity!But by the same token, the word of God
finds them guilty of abomination. We as children of the most
high are to do our best to show those who are living a life
contrary to God's word how to return to our maker.

When we see someone living in sin, on their way to hell, and
failing to follow the words of our savior we are required to
lead them to the truth.  Should we fail to tell them of this
truth, and they die in their sin we will be held accountable for
their soul in the eyes of God.

Already I see you clasifying me as a bible thumping fanatic,
who blatantly condemns people.  WRONG!

As I have said before, and I repeat now, we are to hate the
sin, but love the sinner. Remember that we are nothing more
than sinners saved by grace!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is not my job to condemn anyone! rom 8:1there  is therefore
NO CONDEMNATION to those who are in Christ Jesus:WHO
WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH but after the spirit.

We are the watchmen of the world mentioned in the book of
Ezec.  We must warn the world that without the shed blood of
Jesus there is no forgiveness of sin, and no chance to escape
the fires of a very real hell.

The word believe used in John 3:16 meant to believe, to
continue to believe, and to act upon that belief.  That action
is a repentance (ie turning away from and denouncing) of
our sinfull ways!

It takes far more love to point out a loved one's errors, and
risk loosing their love, than to just let them continue on their
way to hell.  I would rather see every person I meet go to
heaven, even if it meant loosing their friendship.

Do you think that it was easy, or gentle, or what the world
calls loving when Jesus OVERTHREW  the money changers
tables, made whips of the curtain cords, and drove the people
out of the temple? Do you think it was considered "loving"
Jesus called the scribes and pharassees vipers?

No? neither do I! But I still believe that it was done with the
greatest of love!!!!!!!!!!!!

Love is not always easy, love is not always "kind" but love will
always tell the truth needed to set someone free.

Rom 12:1-2 I beseach you bretheren by the mercies of God
that you present your bodies a LIVING  sacrifice , holy and
acceptable unto God WHICH IS YOUR REASONABLE SERVICE.
and be ye not conformed to this world but be ye transformed
by the renewing of your minds to prove what is that good, and
acceptable and perfect will of God.

respectfully yours in Yeshua:

  ravenloche  

[C C]

   Wouldn't that be funny if when we finally get to heaven and find out our names in Christ, one of us is named, "Bible thumbing fanatic who blatantly classifies sheep."

LOL

Alright, I have a sick sense of humor.  

Peace

[Bronzesnake]

Candice Cavalier.

 I suppose that post was directed at me.

 It's ironic that you should infer that I am judging others, and at the same time, judge me so harshly.

 

I've see so many hundreds of thousands of times people think Christ's words are "By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you JUDGE one another."

Does anyone, at the end of the day sit around thinking, "Lord all day today I have not sinned."

 If we are to be accused of "judging" when we point out truths from the  scriptures, then no one would ever be in a righteous position to preach or teach from the bible at all.

 I was not judging anyone Candice - I was correcting your incorrect interpretation of forgiveness. I used scriptures to point out an important detail which you seem to be unaware of. It is biblically true that we must repent of our sins.

 One of the scriptures I used was...

Jhn 8:10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?  

Jhn 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

 Jesus forgave her sin of adultry, and then He told her to stop comiting adultry. Get it? We can't continue in our sins just because we have accepted Jesus. Jesus expects us to fight temptation, and resist sin.

 Candice - how is it that when I used some scriptures to make my point you are so incensed that you made the following statement...

 

I do think it's wrong to sit around in the judgment seat and sit around in the condemner's seat.  We take on Satan's job when we put ourselve in the position where we have to sit around and pick out the sins of others.  

 And yet you used many scriptures yourself to make your point, and that somehow is apparently OK?

 Candice - you made a statement that basically made the sin of homosexuality void once a person accepts Jesus, and that person could basically continue to have homosexual relations because the sin was forgiven - I'm sorry, but that is a dangerous teaching which could cost someone their salvation, and it's not biblical. I'm not judging anyone Candice - I'm simply trying to correct your false belief, and I'm coming straight from Jesus.

Do you know that God commands us to warn people of their sins? It doesn't matter whether the person knows he/she is sinning or not. God says we must warn them against their sin or we shall suffer that persons punishment also.

Eze 3:18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked [man] shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.  


Eze 3:19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.  


Eze 3:20 Again, When a righteous [man] doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.  


Eze 3:21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous [man], that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.  

 You might want to remember those verses the next time you run into a homosexual priest.


Bronzesnake

[Bronzesnake]

Hello Candice...

 I must have misunderstood you when you made the following statement...

 

So, there IS no such thing as a homosexual preist BECAUSE God takes that title away and covers you with His Title.  You are God's.  You belong to God and He has taken away the shame and any names people might call you.

You can therefore say, "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but those names no longer apply to me!""

 I thought you were saying that priest could continue to have homosexual relations, because he has been forgiven.

So, let me get this straight...You understand that once a saved sinner confesses a specific sin, he must repent of that sin, and he must not willingly engage in that sin again?

 

I'm making an effort to not judge people and I hope I haven't judged you and I mean for you not to feel judged.

 well, I appreciate that Candice, although I did believe that post was directed at me, however - I wasn't hurt or anything like that, I'm pretty solid as far as hurt feelings go. I might get annoyed from time to time, but hurt feelings? ahhh, no thanks, I'm full!

 I hope I made the scriptures clear in regards to God commanding us to inform each other of our sins, as opposed to judging each other, which is not cool.

I also try hard not to insult, or belittle people who are honest posters. I must admit that I have on occasion lashed out verbally against flamers...they deserved much worse though!

Take care my friend...

Bronzesnake.

[felix102]

Found it!!  For those who wanted scriptural reference here it is.

Matthew 19:12

For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven.

For some are eunuchs because they were BORN that way. This was said in response to marriages in which not everyone "could accept the word, but only those to whom it has been GIVEN." This means something real simple. God just made people that will marry or won't marry.

Hmm...this wasn't what I saw, but I knew what I was saying was right already.  

[2nd Timothy]

Found it!!  For those who wanted scriptural reference here it is.

Matthew 19:12

For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven.

For some are eunuchs because they were BORN that way. This was said in response to marriages in which not everyone "could accept the word, but only those to whom it has been GIVEN." This means something real simple. God just made people that will marry or won't marry.

Hmm...this wasn't what I saw, but I knew what I was saying was right already.  

I had forgotton this passage Felix.  I also found this one which I don't believe I have ever read before.

Isa 56:4  For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
Isa 56:5  Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

The part that jumps out at me is the ...and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;.  This is a point that Judgenot was trying to make in another thread.

Grace and Peace!

[Bronzesnake]

Hello my friends...

 Word History: The word eunuch does not derive, as one might think, from the operation that produced a eunuch but rather from one of his functions. Eunuch goes back to the Greek word eunoukhos, “a castrated person employed to take charge of the women of a harem and act as chamberlain.” The Greek word is derived from eun, “bed,” and ekhein, “to keep.” A eunuch, of course, was ideally suited to guard the bedchamber of women.

 I'm not sure what the inference is with the last two posts.
 Eunuch does not mean homosexual.
 

 A eunuch was literally a bed-keeper or chamberlain, and not necessarily in all cases one who was mutilated, although the practice of employing such mutilated persons in Oriental courts was common (2 Kings 9:32; Esther 2:3). The law of Moses excluded them from the congregation (Deut. 23:1). They were common also among
the Greeks and Romans. It is said that even to-day there are some in Rome who are employed in singing soprano in the Sistine Chapel. Three classes of eunuchs are mentioned in Matt. 19:12.

Bronzesnake.

[felix102]

I'm not sure what the inference is with the last two posts.
Eunuch does not mean homosexual.

The inference was that eunuch and celibacy (not homosexual) were equivelent in implications. One definition of eunuch is one that lacks virility or mascularity. Remember people are not homosexuals, they are people who lack virility and who are not attracted to the opposite sex (eunuch). They were born that way. But this does not exempt them from sexual sins such as adultery or fornication, and thus they are still susceptible to sexual sin by homosexuality.

[2nd Timothy]

I'm not sure what the inference is with the last two posts.
Eunuch does not mean homosexual.

I agree, I don't think its reference to homosexuals, and my response was more directed to Gracey's post about hermaphrodites than homosexuals.   Sorry I wasn't clearer.

The passage in question...

Mat 19:12  For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

Thayers definition for Eunuch 2135 used here in Matthew

eunouchos
Thayer Definition:
1) a bed keeper, bed guard, superintendent of the bedchamber, chamberlain
1a) in the palace of oriental monarchs who support numerous wives the superintendent of the women’s apartment or harem, an office held by eunuchs

I think its safe we can rule out the above as the type of Eunuch Jesus was refering to.


1b) an emasculated man, a eunuch
1b1) eunuchs in oriental courts held by other offices of greater, held by the Ethiopian eunuch mentioned in Act_8:27-39.

1b is one type Jesus refers to being made by man or perhaps self.


1c) one naturally incapacitated
1c1) for marriage
1c2) begetting children
1d) one who voluntarily abstains from marriage


1c fits another type Jesus refers to as possibly being born that way.  1d refers to the type that would voluntarily abstain.

Nothing here to indicate homosexuals.   But in regards to Graceys querry about hermorphidites, albeit somewhat different, I think this may shed a little light on the question.

Whether one is born with homosexual tendancies or not, they can repent and overcome through Gods saving grace.

Grace and Peace!

[2nd Timothy]

I noticed you didn't spend much time on this one.


Rom 1:20  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21  Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22  Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23  And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24  Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25  Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 1:26  For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27  And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Rom 1:28  And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;


You can spin this anyway you like, but there it is in plain Kings english.   These being spoken of here are clearly engaging in homosexual activity.   Listen to the adjectives used....vile, un-natural, unseemly, unclean, dishounor.   What was the reason for this activity?   These had turned the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped creation over the creator.   In essence, it was judgment upon their unwillingness to put God above all.  

In all honesty I have no hate towards homosexuals.  I do how however believe that their lifestyle is wrong, and against what God intended, much the same way a heterosexual lives in unbelief not acknowledging Christ as Lord and saviour.   Instead of defending the lifestyle and pointing out the hate, cling to the hope of the Cross, and seek the life he would have you live.   Gods agenda is all about sin.   If you are feeling defensive about your lifestyle, then prehaps He is not in charge of it.   Perhaps you are not freely confident about the truth that sets us free.   You can't come to truth until you first come to him.

Just something to think about.

Grace and Peace!

[Kristi Ann]

I really wanted to stay out of this thread, because I don't care much for debates at all.

First off we are Not to Judge anyone here or anywhere at all!! Matthew 7:1-5!!


Some are born different than other people.  I was born with a severe birth defect that I am Severly Disabled from.  Did I sin or have a choice in this matter, No!!. I take Vicodin Pain killers everyday to help me manage my pain.  All my meds are prescription from my doctor!

Okay, people are all different, thank God we are all different, otherwise this would be a Very boring World.

I don't like to see hate or ridicule pushed on all God's Children.  After all we All are God's Children!  There is too much hate and destruction in the World today.  Jesus Commanded us to Love one another. John 15:12.  Without Love we are Nothing to our Sisters' and Brother's or the Lost for that matter!

I know homosexuality is a very hot topic for some people, and subject for a very strong Debate.  Don't we think these People can be loved by God?!  I think so, after all Jesus Died on the cross for everyone!

Here is another issues that's even more taboo.  What about  Transsexuals? They can and do Love God! Are they not worthy of God's Love like Homosexuals are?  Remember Judge Not Lest Thou Be Judged before trying to think how to cure people.  We are to Love one another.  I am God's Child, I Love Him for without Him I would not exist.  Love is Stronger than Hate, can we not see this?!

I wrote a Poem about how I see myself with my Birth defect;

A Poem of My Own



I am a flower as weak as I am strong,
Growing each day to be free.
My stem is strong for my heart is freeing itself
To love and see God's great light for us all;
To be pretty as I was meant to be;
Showing the world I am here to notice the beauty deep down inside of me;
Loving as this was meant to be;
Love makes all things possible.
Tears heal my flowering days as time goes by,
With my inner flower growing to replace this badly torn wrong body.
God sees my tears,
Helps ease the suffering for me to grow.
Laughter is becoming more apparent these days,
Beauty is out there for us to grasp for each of us,
Trying to show the World we are pretty
As a growing flower inside that want's to be free,
Being at last to show our true colors.
Love is everlasting for each and everyone of us
Being True to Ourselves,
So we can love like we are supposed to do.


copyright ©
May 26th, 2000

Kristi Ann

PS. I wrote this Poem because of my birth defect and how disfigured my chest looks.  God Does Love me YaY and Loves You all!!!


Love Always,

KristiAnn