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Author Topic: New Science Shows 6000 year old Earth!  (Read 5891 times)
michael_legna
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« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2004, 02:20:38 PM »


PART 2 of 2

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What if God did create the universe? Can science come to that conclusion through a careful examination of the evidence?

One does not know - but it does not matter.  Science is not looking for truth.  If they can come up with a theory that explains all behavior perfectly (which I am sure they cannot), even if it did not have God at the beginning - that is all they are looking for.  As I have expressed before science uses the best prediction generating model and calls it good.  It is better for them to have good predictions from a clearly wrong theory than to know the truth and not be able to predict anything from it.

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Can they dismiss the evolutionary model as improbable, or even impossible? would they? I doubt it, although many are openly frustrated by the total lack of proof to support evolution, they cling desperately to their sinking ship, because God is unthinkable to them..

There is not a total lack of proof for evolution, it is the only theory (as bad as it is) that explains much of what we see in the development of the species and is the only one I know of to predict species that were unknown until later, when their skeletal remains were discovered.  Yes they cling to a sink ship, not because God is unthinkable to them, but because creationism and other competing theories do not offer any predictive power.

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Evolutionary scientist also try to collect facts which fit their version of history.

Not good ones.  Good scientists do not go out and just look for evidence that is not how science is done anymore.  They instead attempt to predict behavior or evidence that has not been obsevred and then develop a test or experiment to see if their prediction based on the mechanism behidn their theory is correct.  That is how the skeletal remains were found.  The scientists predicted a certain type of animal had to exist between two already known and then determined what time period that had to be - what type of environment it must have lived in and then sent palentologist out to look in a certain strata of rock in a certain part of the world and eureka they found them.  Success.  That is what creationism needs to do if it wants to be a science.

But creationism doesn't have to be a science to be respected.  There are many paradigms (or ways of knowing) that are respected.  Science is one, religion is another.  Why not leave creationism in the religious area and have it search for truth not predictive power.  That way it is not at odds with science.

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Is it science to state life spontaneously generated? What is the scientific proof for such an outlandish statement? "It must have because it's here" That's not science.

Science is about predicting from a model - that means interpolating (projecting data between two known points) sometimes as they did with the skeletal remains I explained above.  Sometimes it means extrapolating (projecting data beyond the last known point).  So yes this is science.  If they extrapolate enough data they could even predict what form the life took etc and then plan an experiment to see if that was what happened and if it failed modify their theory and if it succeeded - Eureka.  Remember science is not in the truth business it is in the prediction business.

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Is punctuated equilibrium science? No, it's philosophy - it's a theory witch can not be tested.  

What is your proof that this cannot be tested?

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Creation scientist do use scientific methods Michael. However, they draw different conclusions based on what is observed.

I do not see it.  I see them do experiments and I see them try to fit existing data into their theories but that is not science.  Science is taking your theory making a prediction and testing to see if that prediction is accurate.  I do not know of a single prediction made by the creationists - let alone one that has been verified by experiment.  If you are aware of one let me know I would love to read it.
 
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Can science prove that a car was created strictly on the physical evidence shown by the car itself? Can they draw conclusions based on it's seemingly specific design and purposeful attributes? Of course they can. However, when scientists use the same criteria through scientific study to draw conclusions about creation, they are ostracized.

Only because they do not come up with a mechanism for how that creation took place - a mechanism that can be quantified and converted into formulas to predict as yet unseen behavior.

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As Christians, we can not serve two masters. We either take God at face value, or we put our faith in the scientific conclusions of man.

As a Christian I rely on science to predict if that tree is going to fall on my house.  I rely on God to guide my house.  I am not serving two masters.  I am serving God and science is serving me.

END OF PART 2
« Last Edit: June 22, 2004, 04:45:59 PM by michael_legna » Logged

Matt 5:11  Blessed are ye when they shall revile you, and persecute you, and speak all that is evil against you, untruly, for my sake:
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« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2004, 04:39:42 PM »

Whatever floats your ark. Smiley

Better than sinking into the Flood...
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infotechadviser
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« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2004, 05:39:13 PM »

Quote from: ebia

Since you seem to be accusing every evolutionary biologist of lying, I think you'd better explain what you mean and/or back up that statement.
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The phrase "playing fast and loose with the facts" does not refer to lies. Most are not outright mouthing untruths. Some believe their pronouncements and deceive themselves (like it says in James). However, many make asssertions in this debate that they know are untrue.

As an example, I saw with my own eyes in an essay from Steven Gould (a counter to Creation book) that the fossil record universally supports the evolutionary time-line everywhere without exception. That may be a paraphrase offhand, but the quote says just that. As a paleontological biologist he knows better.

He also referred to the lack of transitional forms as the "trade secret of panleontology". So when you see assertions that all palentologists know the fossil record support gradual complexification over billions of years, remember it is a "privacy curtain" to hide their secret from view.

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What do you expect a transitional form to look like, so that it is neither a trilobite nor another species?  What exactly would fit your definition of a transitional?

Using any reasonable set of criteria: morphological, genetic, etc. There are some big ones. Despite some efforts to fit square pegs into round holes, there's no half-reptile/half-bird. Archaeopterix is a reptile with wings. The "feathers" were a stretch. The only one they ever discovered was the cut-and-paste plater-of-Paris sample a remote Chinese farmer used that sent them all atwitter until their letdown. At least it didn't take 50 years like Piltdown man. Now that's a really really big gap. There are zillions. Pick your flavor.

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How could there not always be gaps?  However many (finite) fossils you get you are examining what is essentially a continuum.   You can't build a line with a finite number of points.  You seem to want to demand evidence of evolution that would not be expected of evolution.  Which is, infact, mathematically impossible whatever the model.


This is exactly the idea I was addressing. Palentologists today know that they don't have anywhere near what they would expect from evolution, despite Gould's weak theory. There are hundreds, maybe thousands, of species that in turn have tens, dozens, some hundreds and some thousands of individuals in the fossil record. These are not rare at all. They show (according to the "x-Darwinist" timeline)  that the species appears suddenly in the record, exists for a time, and then disappears. Except for some that are categorically extinct as of 100 million years ago that show up in the South Atlantic or somewhere.

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No-one says that science is infallible

No one is expecting infallibility. In fact, there is only one book that has proven so. The "would that they would apply the scientific method to this area" was the answer to the statement (from your post) requesting that we apply it. That is the point Creationists have been making. There is a difference between
facts and interpretations.

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Only if you throw away all evidence otherwise.

You'll never find evidence in the real world that contradicts the Biblical Word. On the other hand, there is plenty more fit in the world for the Creation model than for the "spontaneous combustion" model.

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Citations please.  Every creationist says this, and not one has yet shown me ANY evidence this is true.

Previous posters have offered up links to the list of scientists associated with the www.icr.org web site. That is a partial list. There are a large number of Creationist sites populated by mostly scientists with all the credentials you want. You'll see that a great many of them started out as "x-Darwinists". Their memberships and activities are growing as they only can if this is true. Duane Gish and other well-known figures are also examples.

But there is more. There are famous names like Francis Crick, I think Halley, and more who say there couldn't have been any spontaneous bio-generation on Earth. Others are saying it couldn't have happened period. Some physicists are saying that the universe is itself intelligent and alive. There are many going baffy with the anthropic principle, but they want anything but Genesis 1. Aliens did it, the universe is alive, there must be infinite numbers of universes.. But the Genesis 1 folks are more invisible in the media you read.

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There's no contradiction between evolution & Christianity (or many other religions).  And plenty of scientists have always known this.

Read Genesis 1. There's no way to fit the "evolutionary tree' into the day-ages semantical tapdance. And to say it's an allegory is also a tap-dance. You can't take what you want like a cafeteria. Now I'll admit there are pagan believers today who call themselves "Christian", like Episcopal "Bishop Sprong", and believers in evolution like Hugh Ross who also call themselves "Christian", and there's no contradiction between evolution and their brand of what they call it.

However, I still call myself a Christian, of the kind that accepts the Bible. There is definitely a gap between x-Darwinism and the Bible.
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« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2004, 05:54:16 PM »

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Charles Darwin, [...] had only one degree, and that in Theology.

So?  Most of the scientists of his age had other backgrounds.

The Royal Society of London (the first association of scientists of whom some 80 percent were Puritans), including Isaac Newton, was maybe two hundred years old already. Point is their double standard.

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Creationists have challenged x-Darwinists for a century to apply the scientific method to their work. So they're actually coming up with a new way to do science, where they don't have to bother with that. (Don't object; I've studied their best assertions on this subject).

LOL - any fool can make an assertion.

Yeah. Fools in this case like Steven Gould, Isaac Asimov, other such fools. They both had essays in the very best presentation of the naturalistic evolution case that could be made. The editor was beaten senseless academically in a debate with a Creationist, so he got the best authors he could to write something. They now tell "scientists" not to engage in any such debates.  

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Don't be fooled by obfuscations. There is a intrinsic difference between factual science

Science is not the collection of facts (though it depends on that) but the formation and testing of conclusions drawn from those facts.
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Now there's a good point. Science has paradigms, working frameworks, in which they place their ideas. The x-Darwinist looks at the fossil record, and since he refuses to accept Genesis 1 with its other implications, he has to "conclude" something else. My point was about the difference between "factual science" and "philosophical interpretation". We have the same fossil record, for example, the same facts.

Now go test it. Neither the Creationist nor the x-Darwinist claims to be able to "test it". Both groups make claims about which philosohy, or framework of ideas, paradigm, makes the best fit for that evidence.
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« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2004, 12:17:27 AM »

Quote from: ebia That amounts to collective lying - the consipiracy theory Michael addressed before.[quote

Steven Gould's term was "trade secret". I just expanded on his own terminlogy.

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What do you expect a transitional form to look like..any reasonable set of criteria: morphological, genetic, etc....Much too vague.  


Okay, morphological. But how do you expect a more "exact" answer for a genralized question like that?

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That hardly represents a significant minority, let alone the majority that Creations keep claiming.

I never claimed it was a majority. Anyway, "Wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth unto destruction. Strait is the gate, and narrow is the way that leadeth unto life." For the record, I never said it was going to be a majority either. However, it is definitely a significant minority. A much much bigger one for example, than is required, say, for the same club of the high priests of this persuasion to consider a variable speed of light. And it is growing.

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"..spontaneous bio-generation on Earth..".
We were talking about evolution.


Uh, this particular paragraph of our exchange was about the changes afoot among "scientists".

++++++
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It's not taking what you want "like a cafeteria".  It's thinking about what message God is communicating to us and accepting it as the genre it is rather than forcing it into a 20th century concept of a history book.


It says what it says. God is not a man that He should lie. "I am the Lord thy God. I change not". "His word is established in heaven forever and ever". "Not one jot or tittle shall pass away until all be fulfilled".

 
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I don't know Hugh Ross, but I'm not talking about liberal extreamists like Spong.

It's the same point. Just because you say you're Christian doesn't mean much. I could say I'm Ebia, doesn't make it so. So what criteria can we use? I'd say do you believe the Bible? By the way, most Europeans is cold cold cold to the Gospel.
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