a question for all of you

[Left Coast]

 God gave each of us free will to choose Him or to choose an eternity in Hell...We choose.
 

How does a newborn infant choose?  
A toddler?  
A three year old?  
How does someone that has never heard of Christ choose?   For instance someone living in Bora Bora in the year 600.
We are in agreement that there is much evidence that God exists,   I don’t necessarily agree with your examples.

The Bible places the creation of plants (on the Third Day) before the creation of animals (on the Fifth and Sixth Days). Science is in agreement here. Fossil records demonstrate that plants appeared before animals, both in the sea and on the land.

Not enough time to create fossils, or to show plants came before man. For all intents and purposes man and plants were created at the same time, the same week.
One of my favorite examples relates to continental drift. The bible tells us that the earth was divided.

Genesis 10:25  And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of one was Peleg; for in his days was the earth divided; and his brother’s name was Joktan.

What scientists have described as a slow drifting apart was actually a ripping apart, now the movement of the continents is slowing down.

[Bronzesnake]

L.C.

 

How does a newborn infant choose?  
A toddler?  
A three year old?  
How does someone that has never heard of Christ choose?   For instance someone living in Bora Bora in the year 600.
We are in agreement that there is much evidence that God exists,  

 Children are not required to choose. When a child dies, he/she goes straight to Heaven. People throughout the entire world know about Jesus. If there is a rare instance where some have never heard the Word, they will be saved.

There are Biblical references to those questions, however, I am very tired at the moment. I will dig them up if you can't find them.

Bronzesnake.

[His_child]

tell me. what makes you beleive in god?

Even satan believes in God. It's not that I believe in Him, it's that I want to give my all to Him. He gave everything for me and has shown me a love like no other ever can or ever will.

there is no proof anywhere.

What would be proof to you?

I think its pretty stupid that people beleive in god just because their parents them it was true or a missionary told them it was true.

I think it's pretty stupid when people use silly stereotypes to try and make Christians look like a bunch of zombies just going with the flow.
I grew up with an atheist dad and an agnostic mom.
I was saved at the age of 28 and the first time I met a Christian missionary I was somewhere in my early 30s.

the truth is you dont really know.

I know the same as I know my husband and children love me and I know I love them.

the bible could just be a book of fiction. and you might never know.

When I was in high school (my teens are pretty sure that was just under 1000 years ago) I fell in love with reading classic novels. The kind that men like Steinbeck, Williams, Twain, etc. wrote. If the Bible is fiction, then it was poorly done and would not have lasted all these years.

you could just go nowhere when you die. so, what makes you beleive?

Well, please show me where the Bible has been proven wrong. If you can show that the Bible has ever been proven wrong, then I'll question what it says about the afterlife.

i'm agnostic by the way

How can you be sure about that?  

[Left Coast]

L.C.

 

How does a newborn infant choose?  
A toddler?  
A three year old?  
How does someone that has never heard of Christ choose?   For instance someone living in Bora Bora in the year 600.
We are in agreement that there is much evidence that God exists,  

 Children are not required to choose. When a child dies, he/she goes straight to Heaven. People throughout the entire world know about Jesus. If there is a rare instance where some have never heard the Word, they will be saved.

There are Biblical references to those questions, however, I am very tired at the moment. I will dig them up if you can't find them.

Bronzesnake.

Start Digging.

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We are estranged from God as soon as we are born:

Psalms 58:2  Yea, in heart ye work wickedness; ye weigh the violence of your hands in the earth.
Psalms 58:3  The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Isaiah 48:8  Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.

We sin as soon as we come out of the womb.
God also passes judgment on babies.

Deuteronomy 32:25  The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.
 
This is Gods judgment on Israel. But it is also speaking of Gods judgment on all mankind. Christ is the Rock of our salvation. God was angry because of the actions of Jeshurun found in verse fifteen:

Deuteronomy 32:15 But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.

We see the beautiful giggly little baby; God sees the heart. And the heart is corrupt from birth.
The unborn haven’t sinned yet. But as soon as we come out of the womb we start thinking Me, Me, Me.
"Feed me. I'm mad. Change me. I'm selfish. I'm self centered."
The sad thing is so many churches today figure children are too young for the gospel, they shut their babies up in a nursery. Can't have those babies crying and disturbing the congregation.
Jesus said don't keep the children from me. Yet that is what so many do.

Matthew 19:13  Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.
Matthew 19:14  But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

Somehow God uses the word to save, it is His work.

Romans 10:17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Romans 12:3  For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

God saves even infants, John the Baptist was saved while still in the womb. True joy is salvation.

Luke 1:41  And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
Luke 1:44  For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

And Jeremiah was also saved while still in the womb.

Jeremiah 1:5  Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

The great commission is to go into the world and spread the gospel.
It isn't our job to convince people or save people, God does that.
If you have never heard you can’t believe. That is why we have missionaries, to get the word out.

Romans 10:14  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Today yes many people have heard about Jesus. 1,500 years ago it was a different story.
If you can find scripture that says all children go to heaven, I would like to see it.
I have been asking the question for years, I have heard some creative answers, but nothing substantial.

Children are not required to choose. When a child dies, he/she goes straight to Heaven. People throughout the entire world know about Jesus. If there is a rare instance where some have never heard the Word, they will be saved.

Please dig I want to know your evidence, I want to know what scripture you are looking at.
John

[Bronzesnake]

All of these examples will no doubt be ambiguous or fluke coincidence to an atheist.

Without picking through those one, by one, all they do is demonstrate that the bible describes a few scientific observations with passable accuracy.  They don't demonstrate that the bible is 100% true, or that "God did it".  Infact, the Koran contains rather more convincing proofs of that nature since it appears to contain accuate descriptions of things its author couldn't possible have known or guessed.

It also seems remarkably ironic that you want to use science you dismiss as false when it disagrees with the Genesis account to prove the Genesis account.

Hi ebia.

 Please show me how science disagrees with the Genesis account?

 Is it the results from their carbon and radio dating?
If it is, then I know of some "50 year old 1 billion year old" lava rock that you could buy cheap.

 Of course I don't agree with every scientific conclusion...do you? I seriously doubt there's a single credible scientist on earth who has such a dogmatic attitude.

The things I agree with are generally proven, or demonstrated scientific facts. The things I disagree with,  generally come from scientific theory which goes against the evidence.

 For example...Evolutionary science tell us that the universe, and all life is the result of a fluke accident. That life "somehow" began as a simple single celled organism, then gradually, through "beneficial" genetic mutation brought on by environmental change, life "evolved". This is pure wishful thinking! Scientists have been spreading lies for years, about the ability of life to form new DNA. Or the thousands of graduated transitional fossils they have hidden "somewhere safe", but the sad reality is that there isn't even one!

Many evolutionist scientists have admitted that reality in public, and yet the majority of them still cling desperately onto their "faith".

 You can choose to remain fooled by science ebia, or, you can take an honest look at the so called "proof" and the methods used to back it up, and learn the truth.

Tell me ebia...Why would God lie about the timeline in Genesis?
Why would He lie about creating each life after it's own kind, if He actually used an evolutionary process?

What else did He lie about. Or is He simply a literary incompetent?

 It's funny how you don't seem interested in the archaeology or historical corroboration ebia...afraid of what you might have to fluff of or deny?

 It seems to me that you have more faith in men of science than you do in God.

Bronzesnake.  

[Bronzesnake]

L.C.

Do you really think that when babies die they go to hell?  

I'm digging...it's there I tells ya!

[Bronzesnake]

L.C.

 I stand corrected on the "heathen" issue...

 
Who Will be Saved, According to the Word of God?
By Dr. Norman Geisler


ROMANS 1:19-20—Are those who have never heard the gospel lost?
MISINTERPRETATION: Jesus said, “I am the way the truth life, No one comes to the
Father, except through Me” (John 14:6 NIV). Also, Acts 4:12 says of Christ, “And there is
salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given
among men, by which we must be saved” (NASB). Will someone who has never heard the
gospel of Christ be eternally lost? Paul seems to answer this in the affirmative. But is it fair
to condemn people who have never heard about Christ? Some New Agers point to this
problem in support of the idea that all the world religions are paths to God.
CORRECTING THE MISINTERPRETATION: Paul’s answer is clear. He said the
heathen are “without excuse” (Rom. 1:20) because “what may be known of God is manifest
in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible
attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made” (1:19-20 NIV) .
So, the heathen are justly condemned.
Romans 2:12 states, “For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without
law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law” (NKJV). This pas-sage
teaches that the Jew is judged by the law (the Hebrew Scriptures), but the Gentile is
condemned by “the law written in their hearts” (v.15). “For when Gentiles who do not have
the law by nature do the things contained in the law, these, although not having the Law,
are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their con-science
also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else
excusing them” (Rom. 2:14, 15 NKJV, emphasis added).
The question of God’s fairness in judging the heathen assumes innocence on the part
of the unsaved who haven’t heard the gospel. But the Bible tells us that “all have sinned
and fall short of the glory of God” (Rom. 3:23). In addition, Romans 1:18-20 says that God
clearly reveals himself through natural revelation “so that they are without excuse.” Human
beings are not innocent regarding God’s natural revelation.
If a person who has not heard the gospel and lives to the best of his or her ability, that
person is simply doing works in an attempt to achieve salvation. But salvation is by grace,
“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of
God” (Eph. 2:8 NKJV). No one can do anything to gain access into heaven. If there was
such a way, then the work of Christ on the Cross was a futile act.
The Bible says in essence, “seek and you will find.” That is, those who seek the light
they have through nature, which is not sufficient for salvation, will get the light they need for
salvation. Hebrews 11:6 says, “But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who
comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently
seek Him.” Acts 10:35 adds, “But in every nation whoever fears God and works righteous-ness
is accepted by Him” (NKJV). God has many ways to get the truth about salvation
through Christ to those who seek him. He can send a missionary (Acts 10), a radio broad-cast,
or a Bible (Ps. 119:130). Theoretically God could send a vision (Dan. 2, 7) or an angel
(Rev. 14) though he no longer gives new revelation. But those who turn their back on the
light they have (through nature) and find themselves lost in darkness have no one to blame.

Bronzesnake.

[BlackmanX]

 Why  do  I  believe  in  God  ?  

 Hmm.  Hard to say.  I  look  at  the  men,  women and children around me. I  look at the madness  around  me.  I see  people that are capable of  greatness giving  into  pettiness. I see apathy,  corruption,  greed,  perversion,  hatred,  indifference,  
rage  and  violence.   On  occasion,  I see  love,  harmony,  acceptance,  tolerance,  friendship  and  good  will  toward  men and women.    The  world  is  always on  the  brink  of destruction.


These days,  men and women are   fighting each other  in the home,  in the streets,  at  the office  and  in the bedroom as  opposed  to cooperating  with  each  other  like  it was  meant to be.  Something  has  gone  horribly wrong.  Yet  I see  some  men  and  women try  to  make a  difference and sometimes they  succeed.  

I  sense a  greater  power  out  there.  I dont know exactly what  it  is  or  what  to call  it.   I  know  that  it  is  sentient.  
I  also  know that  often,  it  is  on  the outside  looking  in.

I  choose  to call  it   God.

[Left Coast]

Funny thing about physical matter it can’t come from a void.

Say's who?

It’s a simple fact.
Things with physical substance require building blocks.
Life itself, in the very simplest form, requires the division of a cell.
It is not possible for even an atom to come from absolute nothingness.

[Left Coast]

L.C.

Do you really think that when babies die they go to hell?  

I'm digging...it's there I tells ya!

That’s what the bible says.
If they are not saved they will go to hell.
That is why it is so important to include even the tiniest babies in the hearing of the word.
I believe that God will save enormous numbers of babies in various ways.
Perhaps the crack addict mother will walk by a street corner evangelist, the baby will briefly hear the gospel and God will use that to save a baby that is to die soon.
These are words we don’t like to hear, or consider.
God is above man and we have to be careful not to make him in our image.
We see that sweet huggable baby, God sees the heart. The heart is corrupt from the very beginning.
Of my 4 children I had one really strong-willed baby. She was always trying to see what she could get away with.
I would look out the corner of my eye, she would slowly try to sneak up on something she wasn’t supposed to touch. She would look at me to see if I was watching, getting closer and closer. When she got too close all I had to do is standup, and she would run away. She knew right from wrong.  

[Left Coast]

Bronzesnake,

From your article:
Who Will be Saved, According to the Word of God?
By Dr. Norman Geisler

The Bible says in essence, “seek and you will find.” That is, those who seek the light they have through nature, which is not sufficient for salvation, will get the light they need for salvation. Hebrews 11:6 says, “But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.” Acts 10:35 adds, “But in every nation whoever fears God and works righteous-ness is accepted by Him” (NKJV). God has many ways to get the truth about salvation through Christ to those who seek him. He can send a missionary (Acts 10), a radio broad-cast, or a Bible (Ps. 119:130). Theoretically God could send a vision (Dan. 2, 7) or an angel (Rev. 14) though he no longer gives new revelation. But those who turn their back on the light they have (through nature) and find themselves lost in darkness have no one to blame.

The bible says seek and you will find --- IF you seek him with ALL your heart.

Jeremiah 29:13  And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

The problem is the heart is totally corrupt, to the point that it will deceive us.

Genesis 8:21  And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man’s sake; for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

Jeremiah 17:9  The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

But more clearly the bible says that NONE WILL SEEK HIM.
 
Romans 3:10  As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Romans 3:11  There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

We can get on our knees and plead to God for understanding and mercy, but God is the one who gives understanding.

James 1:5  If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

1 John 5:20  And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Mark 4:11  And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
Mark 4:12  That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Or Not:

Matthew 13:11  He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Romans 11:8  (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
Romans 11:9  And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
Romans 11:10  Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

The bible says clearly no one can come to God unless God draws them, it is His work.

John 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:65  And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
I am afraid I would have to disagree with Mr. Geisler. He hasn’t read his bible very carefully.  

[michael_legna]

Funny thing about physical matter it can’t come from a void.

Say's who?

It’s a simple fact.
Things with physical substance require building blocks.
Life itself, in the very simplest form, requires the division of a cell.
It is not possible for even an atom to come from absolute nothingness.

Unfortunately your knowledge of physics is not up tot he task in this analysis.

At the quantum level there are virtual pair production and anihilation processes going on all the time, where electron and positron pairs are formed and mutually destroy one another readily and repeatably and measurably from the void.

On a large scale there is postulated the existance of something labeled deSitter space which is the void from which the universe that formed from the big bang got its start.

So science does have a method of forming something out of nothing.

Please don't take this clarification as a support of the "truth" of the theory of evolution because I have explained before on this forum that science is not in the "truth" business.  Science is in the prediction business and the theory of evolution provides more predictive power than the creationist account - therefore it is more useable in controlling our environment than the creationist account even if it is not true and the creation account is.  Sceince doesn't care about true, it cares about creating theories that give us predicitive power to control our environment.

[Left Coast]

Unfortunately your knowledge of physics is not up tot he task in this analysis.

At the quantum level there are virtual pair production and anihilation processes going on all the time, where electron and positron pairs are formed and mutually destroy one another readily and repeatably and measurably from the void.

On a large scale there is postulated the existance of something labeled deSitter space which is the void from which the universe that formed from the big bang got its start.

So science does have a method of forming something out of nothing.

Please don't take this clarification as a support of the "truth" of the theory of evolution because I have explained before on this forum that science is not in the "truth" business.  Science is in the prediction business and the theory of evolution provides more predictive power than the creationist account - therefore it is more useable in controlling our environment than the creationist account even if it is not true and the creation account is.  Sceince doesn't care about true, it cares about creating theories that give us predicitive power to control our environment.

It still cannot come from ABSOLUTE nothingness.
Energy is substantial. It comes from something, the idea energy fluctuations can create matter establishes an energy source -- God.

[michael_legna]

Unfortunately your knowledge of physics is not up tot he task in this analysis.

At the quantum level there are virtual pair production and anihilation processes going on all the time, where electron and positron pairs are formed and mutually destroy one another readily and repeatably and measurably from the void.

On a large scale there is postulated the existance of something labeled deSitter space which is the void from which the universe that formed from the big bang got its start.

So science does have a method of forming something out of nothing.

Please don't take this clarification as a support of the "truth" of the theory of evolution because I have explained before on this forum that science is not in the "truth" business.  Science is in the prediction business and the theory of evolution provides more predictive power than the creationist account - therefore it is more useable in controlling our environment than the creationist account even if it is not true and the creation account is.  Sceince doesn't care about true, it cares about creating theories that give us predicitive power to control our environment.

It still cannot come from ABSOLUTE nothingness.
Energy is substantial. It comes from something, the idea energy fluctuations can create matter establishes an energy source -- God.

Sorry but it indeed is from nothing - the energy fluctuations come from nowhere.  The void suddenly is just less stable in the form of nothingness than it is in the form of two chunks of energy or matter.

[Bronzesnake]

L.C.

Do you really think that when babies die they go to hell?  

I'm digging...it's there I tells ya!

That’s what the bible says.
If they are not saved they will go to hell.
That is why it is so important to include even the tiniest babies in the hearing of the word.
I believe that God will save enormous numbers of babies in various ways.
Perhaps the crack addict mother will walk by a street corner evangelist, the baby will briefly hear the gospel and God will use that to save a baby that is to die soon.
These are words we don’t like to hear, or consider.
God is above man and we have to be careful not to make him in our image.
We see that sweet huggable baby, God sees the heart. The heart is corrupt from the very beginning.
Of my 4 children I had one really strong-willed baby. She was always trying to see what she could get away with.
I would look out the corner of my eye, she would slowly try to sneak up on something she wasn’t supposed to touch. She would look at me to see if I was watching, getting closer and closer. When she got too close all I had to do is standup, and she would run away. She knew right from wrong.  

 I disagree with you on this one L.C.

Deuteronomy 1: 39 "Moreover your little ones and your children, who you say will be victims, who today have no knowledge of good and evil, they shall go in there; to them I will give it and they shall possess it"

 Another Scripture which we might consider is in 2 Samuel 12:22-23. David appeared to have little doubt that when his new little baby died, that child was safe...

 2 Samuel 12: 22-23 "So he said, 'While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, 'Who can tell whether the Lord will be gracious to me, that the child may live? But now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me"

 David had little doubt that - in some future state - he would meet up with his baby again.

 Now compare that to David's reaction to the death of Absalom in 2 Samuel 18: 32-33. Now we see David deeply grieving at the death of this rebellious son. Was this simply because Absalom had been part of his family for so much longer than the little baby? I suspect that David believed that eternal hope for his son was now lost?

 Then there is the fate of those little children who were so cruelly sacrificed to Moloch. These poor little tots were literally burned alive!
God's anger at the practice is made very clear in several Scriptures; See Ezekiel 16: 20-21 for instance. But the interesting thing in verse 21 is how, after these poor tragic little ones had already died, God called them, 'My Children' Is that significant? Did God know that those children were safe with Him?

 Look at God's compassion towards the children of Nineveh in Jonah 4: 11. Those who 'Cannot discern between their right hand and their left' are the children!

 But one of the strongest Scriptures for assuring us that those countless thousands of children who have died before the age of accountability, are safe in God's hands is in Jeremiah 31  


Jeremiah 31: 15-17 "Thus says the Lord:
A voice was heard in Ramah, Lamentation and bitter weeping, Rachel weeping for her children, refusing to be comforted for her children, because they are no more.
Thus says the Lord:
Refrain your voice from weeping, and your eyes from tears; for your work shall be rewarded, says the Lord, and they shall come back from the land of the enemy. There is hope in your future, says the Lord, that your children shall come back to their own border"

This prophecy was fulfilled by Herod's cruel slaughter of the innocents, as Matthew 2:16-18 points out. But the prophecy includes a promise that those little children are presently safe! They are not lost! I also maintain, with very little doubt, that this also applies to those tiny babies who are aborted in the womb!

Look at Jesus' attitude towards small children.  Matthew 18: 1-6 ,  Matthew 21: 15-16 and Mark 10: 13-16. These verses speak of young children.

 Matthew 18: 3 unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven"


 The final question then is, At what age has a child reached an age of accountability?
 Certainly Jewish children were not usually considered to come under the law until age 12, but it would probably be wrong to infer too much from that.
 I believe God, in His perfect wisdom, knows when each of us are able to make the choice. Before that time, we are baby birds under His wing.

Bronzesnake.