The gods we worship

[Heidi]

Gracey, only you yourself know your motives. That's why i said the true spiritual journey is a diificult one because it means we have to always look at the plank in our own eye. I do this everyday. I ask my self, "Am I doing this for my glory or God's?" Am I loving to get love back, or am I loving because God has forgiven me so why should i not forgive others? This is how we forgive our enemies. It's easy to love those who love us back. But how many of us love others who hate us? We cannot WILL ourselves to love others. "Love must be sincere." It must be heartfelt to be real. Once we see our own sin and how much of it we have, we can forgive others for theirs. This calls for true humility, a fruit of the spirit. Since we can't decide to love those we don't love, all we can do is ask God for his forgiveness for our hatred and it is THAT forgiveness that we give to our neighbor! That is how Jesus fulfilled the law for us. It is His love that we give, not for our pride or to show we're loving people, but only because of Hid grace. It has nothing to do with ME, and how good, loving, holy, kind, etc. I AM, but how loving, good, kind, etc. God is!!!

Why do you get defensive when your children are attacked, Blain? They are separate people from you, not an extension of yourself! They are responsible for their own actions. Jesus is the ONLY one who doesn't deserve to be attacked! He is the only innocent man whoever lived.

I accept those in authority, but that does not mean at all that i have to agree with them! Most people accept government leaders, but most people disagree with them all the time.

Worshiping simply means whoever you go to for the truth. You either go to men or Christ Himself. "He who is not with me is against me." Man is not God. You either worship one or the other.

The catholic church sees ITSELF as infallible, even if it disagrees with the bible. Their words and actions do not agree. They blatantly disobey Christ while saying they worship him at the same time. Actions show where our true hearts are. Again, David Koresh also SAID that Jesus was the only way to God. But he also saw HIMSELF as infallible as well.

I know MANY people who claim to worship Christ. But when push comes to shove, they love their money, reputation, beauty, intelligence more. "You cannot serve two masters." You are still confusing worship with outside behaviour like the jews do. Going to church, participating in the sacrements, etc. But it is what we worship in our HEARTS that shows wwho our gods are. "For where your heart is, there also will be your treasure."

[Gracey]

Gracey, only you yourself know your motives. That's why i said the true spiritual journey is a diificult one because it means we have to always look at the plank in our own eye.

Okay, I see....I took this wrongly, I think. I also have learned that we must examine our own hearts always.

But how many of us love others who hate us? We cannot WILL ourselves to love others. "Love must be sincere."

I don't personally know anyone who hates me; nor do I hate anyone myself, so this is a tough one for me. But yes, love must be sincere. We may not be able to will ourselves to love, that's true, but we must make the decision to ask God to help us love those we may consider our enemies. It's definitely not something we can do ourselves.

It has nothing to do with ME, and how good, loving, holy, kind, etc. I AM, but how loving, good, kind, etc. God is!!!

Perhaps I gave you the wrong idea with my post.....I wasn't indicating that it was in "my own self" that I could be loving and kind, but through Jesus.

I do believe we may be coming closer to an understanding!  

Why do you get defensive when your children are attacked, Blain? They are separate people from you, not an extension of yourself! They are responsible for their own actions. Jesus is the ONLY one who doesn't deserve to be attacked! He is the only innocent man whoever lived.

This wasn't addressed to me, but I can probably give you a bit of insight (not to Blaine, but to why people in general may feel this way). Children, when they are small, are defenseless. As parents it is our job to bring them up in the way of the Lord and protect them, nuture them and love them until they are able to stand on their own. And they are extensions of us, to some extent because they are our flesh and blood, but mostly, adults have a tendency to feel this way about any defenseless child - whether the child is our own, or someone elses.  We love them. We don't wish to see them hurt. Mostly, it's a human emotion. But God loves, protects and cares for His children, doesn't He?

No, Jesus doesn't deserve to be attacked, but to be frank, we shouldn't be "attacking" anybody. Jesus may have been the only "pure" person to live, but that doesn't mean He's the only one who shouldn't be attacked.  Actually, this might have more to do with "wordage" than actual meaning, so forgive me if I took it wrong (especially since you were addressing someone else and I just happened to jump in).

Worshiping simply means whoever you go to for the truth.

for clarity, the dictionary definition of Worship:

-A feeling of profound love and admiration
-Love unquestioningly and uncritically or to excess; venerate
-Show devotion to a deity
-Attend religious services
-Worship (adoration) given to God alone


Gracey

[Heidi]

Do you think our children are above repoach, Gracey? Many people get defensive when their children are attacked but they themselves attack their children all the time. (We're using the word "attack" as it was referred to in previous posts, i.e. saying they are wrong, etc.)

Gracey, do you know what Jesus means by; "For where your heart is, there also will be your treasure"? If you do, then you know what God means by worship.

[Gracey]

Do you think our children are above repoach, Gracey?

I don't think anyone is above reproach, except maybe an infant. We teach children, not by "attacking" them but by correcting them. Perhaps I have mistaken the use of the word "attack". I don't really take the word "attack" to mean "reproach" or "correction". It seems so much more volatile.

Gracey, do you know what Jesus means by; "For where your heart is, there also will be your treasure"? If you do, then you know what God means by worship.

Yes, I am aware of what the verse means, but worship means more than that. Much more. There are many ways in which we worship God.

Gracey

[Heidi]

I am simply correcting the doctrine of the catholic church when it says it is infallible and we should call the pope our Holy Father. Unfortunately, the catholics see that as an attack. They probably consider it blasphemous as well because they see the pope as their god. They certainly defend him like he is. I do consider it blasphemous for so called "Christian leaders" to deliberately disobey Christ's words because it is indeed blasphemy to attack our Lord and Saviour.

[ebia]

I am simply correcting the doctrine of the catholic church when it says it is infallible and we should call the pope our Holy Father. Unfortunately, the catholics see that as an attack.

It's the way that you go about it that makes it an attack.

Like this:
 

They probably consider it blasphemous as well because they see the pope as their god.

The catholics I know rarely even mention the Pope.  He gets at most one mention during the average catholic mass, and that is a prayer for him.  And yet, despite all the evidence to the contrary you think you can see into their hearts and determine that he is their god.  

They certainly defend him like he is.

When you insist on making unsupported and untrue allegations, what do you expect them to do?

I do consider it blasphemous for so called "Christian leaders" to deliberately disobey Christ's words because it is indeed blasphemy to attack our Lord and Saviour.

Catholics aren't disobeying Christ's words: they disagree with about what those words are meant to mean.  Now, you think they are wrong in their interpretation, and that's a valid position to take, but you then attack them as disobeying when what your position actually demands is to engage in a genuine debate over whose interpretation is the correct one.  To do that you've got to stop firing the accusations and actually engage in some logical argument, something you seem singularly incapable of.

[ollie]

"victims?"   Hmmmm??


Heidi: "The catholic congregation are victims of the teachings of the catholic church just like we are all victims of the teachings we receive.:

Never heard of any one coming to Christ refered to as a victim before.

Seems like a very strange way to describe it.

Is there scripture for, "we are all victims of the teachings we receive?"

Would not a better terminology be "disciples" in place of victims? Then we are only such if we learn, believe and enact the teachings.

Ollie

[Heidi]

We most definitely are victims. If you grew up in Germany during the Nazi regime, why would you believe the Jews were good people? Who would have told you? Just a guess? Why would you think you were right if the majority thought you were wrong? That's why Jesus said, "No one can come to the Father unless the Father who sent me draws him." Do you not believe him?

[Gracey]

Heidi, your thought processes are stunningly difficult to follow for the average person.

We most definitely are victims.

If you grew up in Germany during the Nazi regime, why would you believe the Jews were good people? Who would have told you? Just a guess? Why would you think you were right if the majority thought you were wrong?

I'm not following the logic for this. I must be having a brain block.....   can you explain how these statements are related?

Do you not believe him?

It would be a lot more effective to just quote the relavant verse and not add that at the end.