why does God punish those He didn't choose?

[smartinez1984]

How does he know when to step in?? We are speaking of God here, how can you ask "how does He know when to step in"?

Let's use your analogy of parents and kids. More specifically, my parents and my brother when we were younger. My parents have had dreams for us, they desired us to reach certain heights, they taught us moral values, they taught us what was right from wrong.

My older brother and I would fight like cats and dogs, I darn near killed him with a pair of shears when I was about 14. My parents intervened and I felt the wrath of my father, boy did I ever.

We would fight and they would watch, let us go at it until the KNEW that it had gone too far. They KNOW those things, be it intuition or experience. I know that with MY kids.

Needless to say, both my brother and I became different people than they desired us to be. They did their job, they put the path before us, they enlightened us, we were drawn to their thoughts and ideas, but we chose different paths. Where we end up will be a result of what we chose to do.

You say that "we either respond from Satan or the Holy Spirit". How can we respond if we don't have free will? What you're really saying is that we don't respond, that we're CONTROLLED, right? You're saying that we're either possessed by one or we're possessed by the other.

Was Eve possessed by Satan when she ate of the forbidden fruit? Or did the Holy Spirit force her to eat of the fruit? Who actually made the choice? Or was there even a choice to be made?

-Samson

[Heidi]

Exactly my point! Your parents knew what you were up to, and ALLOWED you to continue until they intervened. They were in control of the situation even though you thought you were! They could have intervened sooner or later, it was up to them. But they know you will not understand anythhing they say unless you learn for yourselves. It is the same with God. He could force us to love Him but then it wouldn't be real love. He lets us come to the point where we DESIRE Him. He does this through allowing us the consequences of our behavior. That is why He allows sin. There can be no grace without sin. For sin causes pain which leads us to God. This is the ONLY  way we can come to Him and think it is our own doing. But just like your parents, God is in control of the whole situation. Again we are not bigger than God or satan. We are either ruled by one or the other.

2 Pe. 2:19, "While a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him."  Romans, 6:17, "But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin...you have been set free from sin and become slaves to righteousness." Romans, 7:15, "I do  not understand what i do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate to do. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me...For I have the desire to do what is good but cannot carry it out." That sums it up in a nutshell. If we had fee will, then we could, on our own, be perfect. But since we can't, God sent His only Son to SAVE us from ourselves. When the pain of sin becomes unbearable, we "select" our least stressful option which is not a free choice but the least of all evils. Only then will we turn our hearts to God. We then become slaves to righteousness. Tryning to understand God without the Holy Spirit is like trying to understand turkish without an interpreter. That's why Jesus said; "No one can come to me unless the Father draws him." Again, God is in complete control of the universe.

[aw]

That's a bit confusing, though. Who created Hell for Satan? Won't some humans be going there? Who will be doing the punishing if not God? Is it the same humans who will be punishing themselves?

aw: God created hell for satan and the 1/3 that rebelled.

Satan had declared that he would be "god" and we can have only ONE of course.

Humans will be going there because they reject the one and only way to salvation. Until one is born again, they belong to satan and will spent eternity with him in hell without salvation.

Satan ans his menions will be doing the punishing.

People who do not have a new nature will automatically continue to punish themselves.

aw

[aw]

Isaiah 10:12 thoughts- The king of Assyria chastened Israel and the Lord punishes him because he boasts that he has conquerored many nations by "his" power alone. In short, he did not recognize God.

God alone is sovereign and omniscient and what He does is always for "good." We might not recognize it as such with our peanut brains and limited knowledge, but it is nonetheless true.

aw

[Heidi]

Hell is simply the absence of life with Christ forever. How can someone receive God's love if he denies God even exists! It's impossible! The punishment will therefore be the ABSENCE of God's love forever. Only God knows the hearts of men and who would accept or reject Him. A good example is Hitler. How could someone one accept forgiveness for killing millions of people? Could a human being withstand the knowledge that he was responsible for the deaths of millions? Judas could not stand the anguish he felt at betraying Christ. "To him whom much has been given, much is required." Most humans will be going to hell for as Jesus said;, "For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life and only a few find it." I believe Him. That's why the only unforgivable sin is the sin against the Holy Spirit which is unbelief. The longer a person rejects Christ's words or worships other gods before Him, the harder it is to accept forgiveness for having rejected the only one who can save him. The remorse would be unbearable.

[smartinez1984]

Humans will be going there because they reject the one and only way to salvation. Until one is born again, they belong to satan and will spent eternity with him in hell without salvation.

Satan ans his menions will be doing the punishing.

aw

So Satan will be getting punished by God but Satan in turn will be punishing the humans? I would have thought that Satan would be suffering way too much to be concerned with punishing someone else... But, then again...

God Bless!

-Samson

[Heidi]

Smartinez, do you know who Satan is and what he he does? Do you think he will be rewarded or defeated by God?

[smartinez1984]

Heidi...

?

Do I think he will be rewarded by God or defeated?? Are you seriously asking those questions???

Personally, I believe that Satan has ALREADY been defeated at the Cross. Why would he have to be defeated again?

I'm not sure I understand your questions.

You made an interesting statement in your previous post: "The punishment will therefore be the ABSENCE of God's love forever." Isn't God's love eternal? Isn't it impossible for God not to love his creation? God can't stop loving anyone, it's impossible. Isn't it?

Are you saying that hell is going to be death? Complete death? You can't be separated from God and still be alive, can you? Isn't he the essence of life itself?

[Heidi]

Yes, Satan has been defeated in those in whom the Holy Spirit reigns. But He will be truly defeated at Christ's second coming and will not appear for 1,000 yrs.

Nobody can receive God's love and forgiveness if he rejects it. It's just like a gift that someone gives you out of love. It will do no good if it remains unopened. Those who do not accept the gift cannot benefit from it. It is the same with those who reject the Holy Spirit. They cannot be with Christ if they don't want to. Those who want to will ask and receive His love for eternity. But only God knows people's hearts.

[Sower]

If it's our choice to come to God, then how come I couldn't believe Jesus's words until I received the Holy Spirit?

You could not believe Jesus' words until the Holy Spirit "convinced" you of Christ -- who He is and what He accomplished for you through His death , burial and resurrection. You did not "receive" the Holy Spirit until you believed Him and believed the Gospel, and repented and received Christ.  It is only when you receive the Saviour into your soul that you receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, the gift of eternal life, and the gift of the indwelling Christ.

I wanted to desperately but it seemed like gibberish to me. How come Paul or the disciples couldn't believe him until they received the Holy Spirit?

The Holy Spirit opens our eyes to the truth about Christ and therefore the "gibberish" makes sense.  He also draws men to Christ (Jn. 16:7-15). But "receiving" the Holy Spirit comes after "believing God":  "Abraham BELIEVED GOD and it was counted to him for righteousness". Without the believing there is no receiving: "But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, EVEN TO THEM THAT BELIEVE ON HIS NAME" (Jn. 1:12)>

Is the Holy Spirit less pwerful than people? Is He meaningless?

Obviously, you do not clearly understand the convicting and convincing power and work of the Holy Spirit. God the Holy Spirit does not compel or coerce sinners but He mightily convicts them of their sinful state and also of what Christ has acomplished for sinners.  Without the Word of God and the Holy Spirit working on the hearts and souls of sinners, no one would be saved. It is a supernatural work of God to draw men to Christ.

If it's our choice, then what if God decides to harden people? Scripture says He decides whom to harden and to whom to give mercy.

God's will is that NONE should perish but that ALL should come to repentance (2 Pet. 3:9).  We have to begin with that truth. "God will have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:4).  Therefore the Holy Spirit works on the heart of each and every sinner who hears the Gospel. The sinner's response must be to "obey" the Gospel, which means believe, repent and receive Christ by faith.  Those who do not yield to the voice of the Holy Spirit are given many opportunities to repent, as was the case with Pharaoh through Moses. Pharaoh repeatedly hardened his heart, and then God said "Enough is enough" and He hardened Pharaoh's heart. But God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, therefore He will give sinners many opportunities to repent, until one day they cannot be saved because of their own obstinacy. They harden their hearts.  Then God hardens their hearts. He is a just God. But He is also a gracious God.

Who's in control of the universe, God or us? Who of us is above Satan or the Holy Spirit?

Your question does not need an answer, since it is obvious that God is sovereign over His own universe.  However, salvation is not a matter of God's control but of man's response to what God in His mercy and grace has provided through the Lord Jesus Christ. God will not compel or coerce man to believe Him, love Him or serve Him.  Unless these things are done out of a believing and loving heart response, they are meaningless to God.

[ollie]

If it's our choice to come to God, then how come I couldn't believe Jesus's words until I received the Holy Spirit? I wanted to desperately but it seemed like gibberish to me. How come Paul or the disciples couldn't believe him until they received the Holy Spirit? Is the Holy Spirit less pwerful than people? Is He meaningless? If it's our choice, then what if God decides to harden people? Scripture says He decides whom to harden and to whom to give mercy. Who's in control of the universe, God or us? Who of us is above Satan or the Holy Spirit?

Those who obey God receive the Holy Ghost. How did you receive it if you did not obey by believing Jesus first? Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

Acts 6:32.  And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.


 Romans 10:9.  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
 10. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
 11.  For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
 12.  For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
 13.  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
 14. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
 15.  And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
 16.  But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
 17.  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Ollie

[Sower]

I think I've got it. Just like my analogy of parents and children, we parents create an environment where our children feel free to "amek their own choices." They think they're making their own choices when in reality, it is we who are creating the environment for them to do so. But we can step in any time and create consequences that will change their "choices", so we are actually in control. If the child does not believe he is free to make his own choices, then he will not take personal responsibility for his own choices, but instead, blame us for them. That is the way God treats us. He allows us to believe that we are choosing Him or not choosing Him even though He has already decided who will come to Him and who will not. Only God knows each one of our hearts and what we are able to handle. Some people want their earthly lives to be their only reward. But all have to believe they hve the choice to come to Him. It is at that point that we are accountable.

GOD DOES NOT PLAY SILLY MIND GAMES AS ABOVE. SALVATION IS NOT AN EXISTENTIAL GAME. IT IS THE OFFER OF THE GRACIOUS GIFT OF ETERNAL LIFE TO ALL WHO WILL BELIEVE, REPENT AND RECEIVE CHRIST AS THEIR LORD AND SAVIOUR.

[Sower]

Hell is simply the absence of life with Christ forever.

This may be wishful thinking, but it certainly is NOT BIBLE TRUTH.  Before making such statements which have no foundation in Scripture, please study the Word. Hell is a literal Lake of Fire, a place of eternal torment, a place of confinement for all who are wicked, sinful, and rebellious, an eternal prision created primarily for the devil and his angels, but reserved for all who will not believe the Gospel (Jn. 3:36).

The torments of Hell are indescribable, therefore Christ exhorted sinners to cut off sinning limbs rather than go into Hell with two limbs "where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched".

Next you'll be telling us there is no conscious existence of souls after death, and that all souls simply "sleep". That is the logical progression for those who deny the reality of Hell. It is not SIMPLY absence of life without Christ!

[Sower]

Satan ans his minions will be doing the punishing.

Nowhere does the Bible teach such a thing. Satan and his evil angels themselves will be receiving the just and righteous eternal punishment that they deserve in Hell.

HOWEVER, BECAUSE GOD WANTS NO HUMAN BEING IN HELL, HE SENT THE SAVIOUR. WE NOW HAVE THE GOSPEL. ALL SHOULD BELIEVE, ALL SHOULD REPENT, AND ALL SHOULD RECEIVE CHRIST AS LORD AND SAVIOUR. ALSO, ALL BELIEVERS SHOULD TAKE THE GOSPEL TO EVERY CREATURE!

Sinners will be in Hell because they turned their backs on the Saviour. Not because He turned His back on them! (Jn. 3:14 -36).

[Heidi]

So what do you think about John, 6:44, Sower,  "No one comes to me unless the Father who sent me draws him"?