lost sheep

[Raphu]

I agree.  That's why people shouldn't confuse today's Israel with yesteryear's.  

Well, actually they are when examining the scriptures closely because God never breaks a covenant and has not nor never will.  The covenant is still to the two houses of Israel and to all those that are grafted in. Dis you read my post and understand it? Most people have been taught replacement theology, but it isn't true. Even the New Testament talks of the Better covenant being to the two houses of Israel in Hebrews 8:8. The houses split after Solomons reign with two kings for Israel. One house, called Israel was headed by the tribe of Ephraim - and the other house was Judah, headed by the house of Judah.

Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

I know I've pasted this verse many times with others about how scripture tells us that God hasn't changed a bit from the begining,  in whom there is no variableness sor shadow of turning, concerning His covenant. The book explains this and if your interested, read it, and then we can better discuss. The link makes it available for free.
Nothing has been replaced nor lost with God.

Mal 3:6  For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

[darby]

An Israeli friend of mine informed me that the large majority of Israelis are atheists (atheism = disbelief in our Creator, which is the most base and backwards attitude anyone could possibly have).  Based upon your definition, this would mean that the majority of today's Israelis are not Jewish.  

The Israel that exists today is in no way similar to the old Israel, other than it is roughly located the same geographic area.  Perhaps "Israel" should be seen as more of a conceptual place, to be used more as a figurative term for a land where God is properly revered by the spiritual sons of Abraham.    

There was the old covenant in the Old Testament, but did not Jesus come to establish a new covenant for all mankind?  Would people be excluded from this covenant just because they do not accept it?

I am not trying to start any mean spirited arguments or anything.  I am only trying to understand.

[Raphu]

An Israeli friend of mine informed me that the large majority of Israelis are atheists (atheism = disbelief in our Creator, which is the most base and backwards attitude anyone could possibly have).  Based upon your definition, this would mean that the majority of today's Israelis are not Jewish.

I'm not sure why you are getting this from my definition of Israel. If you read the old testament you find that Israel was the name of Jacob given to Him by an angel he wrestled with and demanded a blessing. Jacob, son of Isaac, then went on to father the sons who would all be the tribes of Israel. These 12 sons then divided the land of Israel and lived in their seperate portions of the country. The boundaries are given by God in the book of Genesis of where Israel was to be, and it was much bigger than it is now. The book that I gave the link for in another thread goes into depth about who Israel is, for those interested to know. It was fascinating to see how God used ALL of Israel to bring salvation to all mankind. This included all the tribes of Israel and not just the one tribe most people associate Israel with - the Jews, named after their father and son of Jacob, Judah. Israel has 12 other tribes, and following the stories of the old testament, we see that Israel had a civil war brought on by the sons of David and Israel split into two kingdoms with seperate kings. THe kingdom to the north was called Israel, and the kingdom to the south was called Judah. From here on, God dealt with each tribe seperately, with different prophecies and punishments.

The Israel that exists today is in no way similar to the old Israel, other than it is roughly located the same geographic area.  Perhaps "Israel" should be seen as more of a conceptual place, to be used more as a figurative term for a land where God is properly revered by the spiritual sons of Abraham.

Well, that may be your idea, but God plans to fully restore the physical Israel, complete with tribal borders right after armageddon and the milliniel kingdom is established with Jesus reign of 1000years with the saints as judges. Just as we are physical and spiriual, so is Israel.  

There was the old covenant in the Old Testament, but did not Jesus come to establish a new covenant for all mankind?  Would people be excluded from this covenant just because they do not accept it?

Well, ofcourse all mankind is blessed through this covenant to Abraham and God's chosen people. Even God's first promise to Abraham was that his seed would be a many nations or "hamon goyim" in Hebrew which means multitudes of Gentiles. So even from the begining, the promise was to Gentiles too.
There is no exclusion for any that want to come to God through His door in Jesus, but remember Jesus was a fulfillment of Gods plan that started back in Genesis and goes through the Old Testament all the way to the cross. The heritage we have is rich to discover, but why you would think understanding the Old Testament would exclude anybody has to be from something somebody else would say. Not me.
This covenant has not changed, Look at who the new covenant is to in this verse in the New Testamnet:

Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

I am not trying to start any mean spirited arguments or anything.  I am only trying to understand.

Me either, I want people to be blessed, but reading the book would help you see these verses in scripture and Who Israel is. It is physical and spiritual, just as we are. Romans seven tells us about the root of Abraham and the grafted in branches. We are told to not boast against the natural branches.
Jesus said He came back to find the lost sheep of Israel and that they would know His voice. Are you one of the lost sheep of Israel that heard His voice? Probably none of us know how far back our bloodline goes and whether or not if we might be distantly related to one of the lost tribes of Israel that went into captivity and were absorbed by the Gentile nations to emerge as a mighty warrior nation that would protect their brother Judah in the last days. God never loses track of His "firstborn", and the head of the "firstborn" was the leader tribe of the house of Israel when it went into captivity - Ephraim. They were lost, but now are found, just as we are. Lost and found. Those who were "loammi", not my people, have become "sons of the living God" - just as we. Here's that link again if interested: http://www.aarons-advocates.org/BACONT.html   God bless...

Hosea 1:9  Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.
10  Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

Matthew 15:24  But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

John 10:16  And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

[Allinall]

All people are saved by their faith in God. Righteousness was imputed to Abraham for His faith in God, but even Abraham is saved by Jesus Christ who undoubtedly he rejoiced upon the revelation of Him. Whatever obedience is done because of faith in God will be judged according to the love and mercy of God and He will make all things right according to His perfect will.
I wonder about how much our perception of eternal events is distorted by living in time, as we do look through a glass darkly and tend to think in linear time-line terms. When we go to the Lord, I understand that we will know as we are known, and be like Him. Those that have know God and loved Him will probably know Jesus with no problems as they have trusted Him as Father and Spirit before eternity. IMHO

Romans 4:1 Abraham was, humanly speaking, the founder of our Jewish nation. What were his experiences concerning this question of being saved by faith? 2 Was it because of his good deeds that God accepted him? If so, he would have had something to boast about. But from God's point of view Abraham had no basis at all for pride. 3 For the Scriptures tell us, "Abraham believed God, so God declared him to be righteous." 4 When people work, their wages are not a gift. Workers earn what they receive. 5 But people are declared righteous because of their faith, not because of their work. 6 King David spoke of this, describing the happiness of an undeserving sinner who is declared to be righteous: 7 "Oh, what joy for those whose disobedience is forgiven,whose sins are put out of sight. 8 Yes, what joy for thosewhose sin is no longer counted against them by the Lord." 9 Now then, is this blessing only for the Jews, or is it for Gentiles, too? Well, what about Abraham? We have been saying he was declared righteous by God because of his faith.

AMEN!!  I have been meditating about this very thing for the better part of a year and a half.  Abraham believed God - not concerning a Savior, Redeemer, or the Christ.  He believed God about God's promise to make a mighty nation from his offspring with Sarah:

After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision, saying, "Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your exceedingly great reward." But Abram said, "Lord GOD, what will You give me, seeing I go childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?" Then Abram said, "Look, You have given me no offspring; indeed one born in my house is my heir!"  And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir." Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

It was Abram's faith that was God's saving grace.  Now.  We struggle with this because salvation is belief and confession of Jesus Christ as payment in full for our sin.  It is important to understand the dispensational application that must be employed here.  God revealed Himself in furthering degree within the framework of the ages He created.  His salvific grace has always been dependent upon faith - believing Him, not just in Him.  Believing God.  Interesting that at each dispensational point of belief was a picture of the Christ to come.  Take Abram.  He believed God would make the nation He promised to make of him through Sarah.  But what else did God promise Abram within that initial promise?

Now the LORD had said to Abram:
        "Get out of your country,
        From your family
        And from your father's house,
        To a land that I will show you.
        I will make you a great nation;
        I will bless you
        And make your name great;
        And you shall be a blessing.
        I will bless those who bless you,
        And I will curse him who curses you;
        And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."

Genesis 12:1-3

Salvation further revealed.  For the O.T. Jew, were they saved by the practice of the Law God had given...or what that Law pointed to?

CONTINUED

[Allinall]

...CONTINUED...

By stating that the O.T. Jew was saved by keeping the Law goes in the face of everything Jesus taught while here on earth.  The Pharisees had kept the Law in form, but not in heart.  Afterall, it was Jesus Who pointed out that adultery wasn't just an active sin, but a mental one.  If the thought was there, so was the sin, and if that commandment was offended, then they all were.  None could keep that Law - but Jesus.  

So what then saved the O.T. Jew?  It is true that to be saved, one had to be a Jew in that dispensation.  Consider Rahab, Ruth, and the servants the Law mentions who became prostelytes, the men taking the mark of the covenant, that being circumcision.  But was it keeping these Laws that saved, or was the keeping of these Laws the result of being saved?  Today, as in that day, as regenerated believerswe sacrifice:

you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 2:5

Today, as in that day, as regenerated believers we serve God:

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Ephesians 2:10

I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.  Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

Romans 12:1-2

Today, as in that day, as regenerated believers we worship God in a temple:

Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you?  If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and you are that temple.

1 Corinthians 3:16-17

What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, "I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

2 Corinthians 6:16

They had many practices in that day, all of which pointed to this day, and to Jesus Christ our Redeemer.  How are we saved today?  That is how they were saved then.  They had a Law that pointed to a Savior Who would come.  We have a Gospel that points to a Savior Who did come.  They believed in a redemption to come.  We believe in Redemption that came, died, was buried, and rose again.   They believed God.  We believe God.  Praise GOD!!  

Israel was God's chosen dispenser of His grace in that dispensation, and has it's own promises fulfilled, and yet to be fulfilled.  The ecclesia is God's chosen dispenser of that same grace in this dispensation.

I've ranted enough.  I'll stop now.  

[AG Man]

Just a thought, As we all know from the earliest time man had to sacrifice an  animal without blemish once a year for the sins of the entire nation which rolled their sins ahead for another year. But when Christ came and died He, the Bible says set the captives free. What I believe is His blood the one and only true sacrifice paid the finally debt of sin for all those who put their total trust in God. We do know they were seen by men before they were all taken to heaven with the Lord.

Now concerning the remote areas of the world which I know nothing about I leave that in the hands of a just God.