Pre-wrath investigation

[Bronzesnake]

Hello Petro.

You must know there are two different trumps. One being blown by God and the other blown by angels. The last trump...look in your bible and find the place where God blows the trump for the last time.

 As far as your question about

"I don't believe anyone can discuss anything about any Rapture, unless they define who these Called, Chosen, Elect Saints are"

 You seem to believe that you set the standard as to who understands the scriptures. I could answer your question, but I will not submit to your false belief that by doing so you would somehow prove that you are correct and I am incorrect.
The answer to the question is obvious.

Take care my brother, and may God richly heap blessing upon blessing on you...

Bronzesnake.

[Petro]

Hello Petro.

You must know there are two different trumps. One being blown by God and the other blown by angels. The last trump...look in your bible and find the place where God blows the trump for the last time.

 As far as your question about

"I don't believe anyone can discuss anything about any Rapture, unless they define who these Called, Chosen, Elect Saints are"

 You seem to believe that you set the standard as to who understands the scriptures. I could answer your question, but I will not submit to your false belief that by doing so you would somehow prove that you are correct and I am incorrect.
The answer to the question is obvious.

Take care my brother, and may God richly heap blessing upon blessing on you...

Bronzesnake.

bronzesanke,

Thats what I thought.....you have no answers.

Blessings,

Petro

[Bronzesnake]

 I have the only answer that matters my friend...Jesus is the answer!

Bronzesnake

[Bronzesnake]

 Petro, my brother.

I have been reading through some of the Rapture threads to see if maybe I had it wrong. I'm not interested in being "right" even if I'm not, I just want the truth, after-all it's not us who spreads the Word, It's God, so we get no creadit for understanding or not...right?

 I do have a question for you though, that you haven't answered yet...

 how and when does the Wrath of God found in the 7 vials take effect on the earth?

 Thanks my friend...

Bronzesnake

[peachykeen]

While both of you make great points, I honestly think we'll know for sure only when it gets here.  Jesus didn't expect us to have it all figured out before it happened, he said that no one would be prepared on the day that He decends on the cloud again.  God only knows if he's going to gather up the christians before that or if we get tossed into the turbulent, churning waves of violence, corruption, war, greed, fammon, sickness, and inevitably death with the rest of the world.  

While I can't say I see it on the horizon, or I can plan on it coming in 2014 or something...let's just say I have my swimsuit on in the meantime.  Just in case.

You guys both have a lot of research, I could never remember that many verses!

seeing with my heart, peachy.  

[Bronzesnake]

While both of you make great points, I honestly think we'll know for sure only when it gets here.  Jesus didn't expect us to have it all figured out before it happened, he said that no one would be prepared on the day that He decends on the cloud again.  God only knows if he's going to gather up the christians before that or if we get tossed into the turbulent, churning waves of violence, corruption, war, greed, fammon, sickness, and inevitably death with the rest of the world.  

While I can't say I see it on the horizon, or I can plan on it coming in 2014 or something...let's just say I have my swimsuit on in the meantime.  Just in case.

You guys both have a lot of research, I could never remember that many verses!

seeing with my heart, peachy.  

 That's true PK, however, this is a discussion forum, and that's why we are here right?

 Take care...

Bronzesnake.

[peachykeen]

lol, good point bronzesnake, I was just stating my opinion.  discuss on!

seeing with my heart, peachy.

[Eddielee]

Jesus didn't expect us to have it all figured out before it happened, he said that no one would be prepared on the day that He decends on the cloud again.  

I disagree; while Jesus said no one will know the day or the hour, he commanded us to watch for the season, to know the timing of these things and await his return.

Matthew 24:32-33, 42:
Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door.
..
Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.

[Petro]

Petro, my brother.

I have been reading through some of the Rapture threads to see if maybe I had it wrong. I'm not interested in being "right" even if I'm not, I just want the truth, after-all it's not us who spreads the Word, It's God, so we get no creadit for understanding or not...right?

 I do have a question for you though, that you haven't answered yet...

 how and when does the Wrath of God found in the 7 vials take effect on the earth?

 Thanks my friend...

Bronzesnake

bronzesanke,

Now that I will agree with;

One must believe Jesus, ..........and quit speculating, it seems some would rather speculate..

I will answer your question, I wish you guys would answer questions posed to you at least once is a while, and quit skirting them.

I want to know, from you and the others, what makes the NT Saints, who were saved post resurrection, different,from the great tribulation Saints.  

In your theory which is less than 200 years old, you separate these, ones from the other, the  tribulation Saints, are NOT, [according to the pre tribulation rapture theorists] members of the church.

Yet clearly they will be resurrected and reign with Christ for 1000 years. (Rev 20:4-6)

I have been asking this question from the begining to get some to think,.....things through, especially, what their [pre trib rapture]..... theory teaches...

I happen to believe expositors who teach that the 7 trumpets are in the 7th seal, and the 7 vials, in the 7th trumpet.

The Bowels and Vials are the same judgements.

I am not interested in comparing theories, I am interested in having people consider what the scriptures teach, it seems you guys are interested in  comparing theories, in order to keep from reading and studying scripture.

I want to help you think, things thru..............


But don't look for me to give you the answers, the key to all this is found in Daniel's prohecy.

Dan 12
8  And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
9  And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10  Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11  And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12  Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
13  But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Something significant occurs at 1290 days.....if its the 1260th day, then clearly something could have happened at the begining of the these days.   Huhhh??


You guys are stuck on 1260 days, but there is 75 days unaccounted for, and thats where fireworks are.

I clearly see, the all Saints who belong to Jesus as HIS Church, and it is clear, they will ALL be resurrected at the last day, just as He said, not one Saint will be missing.

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

The mistake pre tribbers make is they start their dispensation before the appointed time, so that in their minds, everything that occurs during the tribulation before the Lords return is in another time zone [dispensation] this is why they cannot see,  the last day of this age, they just simply assume.... it is off at the end of another dispensation.

I agree that those saved during the millenial reign of Jesus, are not members of the church, since during this period the Mosaic Laws will be re instituted and observed.


I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? Jhn 11:25-26

Note:

1 Th 3
9  For what thanks can we render to God again for you, for all the joy wherewith we joy for your sakes before our God;
10  Night and day praying exceedingly that we might see your face, and might perfect that which is lacking in your faith?
11  Now God himself and our Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you.
12  And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you:
13  To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Now please answer my question........



Thank You,

Blessings..........

Petro

[Bronzesnake]

 Hello Petro.

 I've been going over all the pre-trib - pre-wrath - mid - trib etc, and I've come to the conclusion that it wouldn't do any good for me to try and add to it all. I have my belief, which I feel is the very strongest position given the scripture, with the least amount of problems. There is more than enough material on any of these positions for a new Christian to be able to make a decision on which position makes the best sense for him/her.

 I will, however, challenge your statement...

In your theory which is less than 200 years old, you separate these, ones from the other, the  tribulation Saints, are NOT, [according to the pre tribulation rapture theorists] members of the church.

"All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins. -Pseudo-Ephraem (c. 374-627)"

 How do you get 200 years? I would also submit that pre-trib goes back two thousand years...it's in the New Testament.


Here are two verses which make it clear that saved Christians will not suffer through, Tribulation, or wrath. It says wrath...not satan's wrath...not God's wrath...it says wrath, period.

 Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,  


Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

 I will end my participation on the subject here, trusting God's word as He presented them to us all in the preceding two verses.

Bronzesnake.

[Petro]

bronzesanke,

It doesn’t do you any good to cherry pick verses  isolating them to shore up your point.

The verses you have given , don’t mean anything unless they are taken in context.

Clearly verses  8 and 9, speak of a religious person,   Is your use of them in what you are trying to say, sound biblical teaching??  

Not so, friend, very poor exegesis of these.

Being a religious Jew, is no assurance of being saved.......the whole chapter deals with the outward religious man  who claims to be authentic.  Sorry pal, this won’t fly here...........but here is the chapter for you, you may want to familiar yourself with the first  5 chapters Romans. They are excellent.

Rom 2
1  Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2  But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3  And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4  Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5  But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6  Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7  To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8  But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9  Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10  But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11  For there is no respect of persons with God.
12  For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13  (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14  For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15  Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16  In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
17  Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18  And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19  And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20  An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
21  Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22  Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23  Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
24  For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
25  For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26  Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27  And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28  For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29  But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


As for your pseudo Ephraem sermon, on which you hang your hat;

 (BTW,  the word "pseudo" really does apply very well for the document you quote; [Webster‘s New World Dictionary defines this word as;

4. sham 5.bogus, false 6. untrue 7, feigned 8. spurious 9. deceptive, imitation, pretender.] ......walla.........)  


I won’t accept anything other than scripture, however, it seems to me, your seeking the truth in false sermons  really reveals the extent of your  grasping for straws, this is nothing more than a smoke screen.

I know from previous convesations with you about  Mat 24, that you claim this was written only for the Jews, and  includes only them, however, the pre trib position also agrees that  the elect at (vs’s 22, 24) as the "trib saints" and they together with the Jews, will be raptured at His (Christ's) 2nd coming.

That is where your delima begins, since the author of Pseudo claims, that the elect are the church, and they will be raptured before the beginning of the tribulation.

Here is the reality of this,........... in their own words;


http://www.geocities.com/lasttrumpet_2000/timeline/ephraem.html

"For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."




I wouldn’t put a lot stock in this document, which Pre Tribbers try an use as the smoking gun, which proves a pre trib rapture teaching by early church fathers.

Why any Christian would use non canonical writings to try and disprove what is clearly taught in scripture is beyond me.

Later,

Petro

[Bronzesnake]

Petro.

 You're right...half way. I should have added those additional verses. I do understand the context of the verses, and your point about "a religious person" is no doubt addressed, but God goes even further than that Petro. God clearly says...

"every soul of man that doeth evil"

When the verses I posted are shorn up with the additional verses, it really goes well to substantiate the fact that saved Christians are not headed for Tribulation or Wrath.

You claim these verses of warning are exclusively for "religious persons" but what is a "religous person" as described in these verses? These verses describe people who live by the Law Petro. Who are they? They are non-believers Petro, they are not saved by the Blood of Jesus Christ Petro.
 So the dire warnings of Tribulation and Wrath are directed at them.

 When you read these verses it becomes clear that there is a distinction made between those who will see Tribulation and Wrath and those who will not. So, in the very least Petro, we have here, a clear statement from God that there will be some who will not see Tribulation and Wrath. Otherwise why was God so specific about what kind of people would see Wrat and Tribulation? why would God have delivered such a warning only toward them?...

 8  But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9  Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; Clearly God is telling us that there is a destinction between those who are "unrighteous", those who "do not obey the truth", those who "doeth evil" These will suffer Wrath and Tribulation.

 You must include yourself counted among those (above) Petro seeing as though you keep telling us you will see Wrath and Tribulation even if only for a time.

 However, God states that, those who, "by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour" those who "worketh good"  By contrast, do not suffer Wrath or Tribulation.

 7  To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

 10  But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

So if Wrath and Tribulation comes to the "religious person",  then who are those, who by inference, will not see Wrath or Tribulation Petro?

 Petro, notice where God clearly says "every soul of man that doeth evil"  not just "a religious person" as you have added yourself. Remember your own words of warning about those future cult leaders who have to add their own words and interpretations in order for the message to fit their own purposes. Nowhere in those verses does God mention "a religious person" He does, in fact, clearly express "every soul of man".


 

I know from previous convesations with you about  Mat 24, that you claim this was written only for the Jews, and  includes only them, however, the pre trib position also agrees that  the elect at (vs’s 22, 24) as the "trib saints" and they together with the Jews, will be raptured at His (Christ's) 2nd coming.

That is where your delima begins, since the author of Pseudo claims, that the elect are the church, and they will be raptured before the beginning of the tribulation.

Petro.
 Either you're being deceitful, or you have a very poor memory, which would be a warning to those who would follow your theory.

 You have discussed this fully with Paul2 and you should know full well that there is a difference between the "Raptured Saints" and the "Tribulation Saints". I'm not arguing that you should accept or understand it, however, you are fully aware of the explanation. Paul2 put fourth an exhaustive explanation on the very question you have just asked, and he directed it toward you Petro, when you asked the very same question of him.  I will search through the threads and find it if you continue to have "memory problems".

I really have to wonder why you act as though it has never been explained to you  Petro. It smacks of dishonesty, or in the very least, antagonism. Either way, it's not honest.

 Listen Petro, I'm just trying to help you see the truth of God's Word.

Petro. If you really want the truth about Pseudo-Ephraem, then check out this URL...

 
http://www.grantjeffrey.com/article/examining_an_ancient.htm


Bronzesnake.



 

[Petro]

bronzesanke's reply #26

Petro.

You're right...half way. I should have added those additional verses. I do understand the context of the verses, and your point about "a religious person" is no doubt addressed, but God goes even further than that Petro. God clearly says...

"every soul of man that doeth evil"

When the verses I posted are shorn up with the additional verses, it really goes well to substantiate the fact that saved Christians are not headed for Tribulation or Wrath.

bz,

It is clear to me, you have no idea, that chapter 2 of the book of Romans, is speaking of the unregenrate, outwardly religious, your twisting of the verses of course give you a skewed understanding of the context of what is written, this is the deep seated root of your problem.
And because of it,  this is the reason why,  you embrace the doctrine of no eternal security in those who believe and have been regenrated by the Spirit of God.
Deceiving and being deceived, that the blood of Jesus has not covered all of your sins, past, present and future; ohhhhh.....yes I hear you, when you mouth and give lip service to your believing that Jesus blood covers all your sins, however your own words prove you really believe, otherwise, claiming it is ultimately by your own efforts and observance of commandments that will, in the end deliver you from the wrath to come, which awaits  "every soul of man that doeth evil"

You claim these verses of warning are exclusively for "religious persons" but what is a "religous person" as described in these verses? These verses describe people who live by the Law Petro. Who are they? They are non-believers Petro, they are not saved by the Blood of Jesus Christ Petro.

You just made my point, you do not understand these scriptures!
Verse 4, makes it clear the religious men of this passage of scripture, are unrepentant, and would rather live by the Mosaic Law, rather than bend the knee to the GRACE of God manifested in sacrificial blood of  Jesus given at HIS Cross for ALL sin once and for all, these are clearly those who are referenced at Acts 15, who claimed Christians must keep the Law and be circumcised.
Kind of like those who, claim today, it is needfull to be baptized (spiritually circumcise oneself) and keep commandments, or one will lose the Free Gift, of which you are a promoter..
The Law, refered to in this passage herein, is the Mosaic Law, not just the 10 commandments, you ,of course you are referring to just the 10 commandments.
And, I understand what you are insinuating herein, bronzesanke; ...... unfortunately your presumptious claim herein, overlooks the fact, that I have from the begining and since I began posting on this forum, have claimed, that Gods grace is such that, our conversion was not, nor is it based on anything we have done, nor can ever do, and observance of the Law, never saved anyone, since, the Law was our schoolmaster that brings us to Christ, and once that is accomplished we are no longer under a schoolmaster (Gal3:24-25)

Understanding this is truly what sets people free.
Keeping Gods commandments are not necessary for Salvation, they are proof that one is saved, this is the only way, one can prove to other men, who enquire of us if we are truly saved. Keeping His commadments and doing good to the glory of God.

So the dire warnings of Tribulation and Wrath are directed at them.

When you read these verses it becomes clear that there is a distinction made between those who will see Tribulation and Wrath and those who will not. So, in the very least Petro, we have here, a clear statement from God that there will be some who will not see Tribulation and Wrath. Otherwise why was God so specific about what kind of people

Here is another point you make, which clearly shows you do not have a grasp of what is biblically taught by scripture...
Jesus said;
In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. (Jhn 16:33)

I have not experienced tribulation ion my life time, and I can safely say, you probaly have not either 'till now; but tribulation in this world is not wrath (of God) don't confuse the two, and you do, ......... this is why there is confusion in your camp concerning these things.

The wrath spoken of at verse 5, is clearly explained in the next four verses, note;

 5  But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6  Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7  To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8  But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9  Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

This is not speaking of the wrath God visits upon the ungodly at the Second Coming of Jesus, at all.  

Since, the second portion of verse 5, gives us a clue to the day of this wrath, Paul at the begining of the verse, says;

"But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath"..,

Just as Christians are encouraged by Jesus words to;

lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. (Mat 6:20-21)

These of Rom 2:5,  because of; thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath, against the day of warth, because they have rejected the FREE GIFT.. "treasure up" judgementfor themselves, just as if they were building a fortune of gold and silver that will be revealed at the White Throne Judgement, where the
"every soul of man that doeth evil" will be tried; see Rev 20:11-15, in that day;

the judgment of God will be seen to be absolutely without prejudice and injustice of any kind.

The Great Tribulation saints experience on this earth, is not the Wrath of God, your theory that Romans 2, is speaking of the Great Tribulation on the earth, once again exposes your mis understanding of the teaching of scripture, since the Souls of men are not judged at all at this time, it is only by the stretch of your imagination that this appears to be so, to you..

Nothing else you say, concerning Romans 2, beyond this point,  even touches the context of its scriptural teachingl.

Petro.
Either you're being deceitful, or you have a very poor memory, which would be a warning to those who would follow your theory.

You have discussed this fully with Paul2 and you should know full well that there is a difference between the "Raptured Saints" and the "Tribulation Saints".

Ohhhh....really, perhaps you can explain the difference??...........paul2 and others haven't, perhaps you can expalin that difference, but please give sound scripture...

What is the difference of the, Called Elect Chosen Saints of God, post resurrection and those which come out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb of Rev 7:14??

You and they, have never answered this because  YOU KNOW there is no difference, if anyone knows anything, you know there is no difference and this is why you ignore this question.

Unfortunately, you must ignore  this great truth, in order to make the pre tib rapture work for you....isn't that so??

I'm not arguing that you should accept or understand it, however, you are fully aware of the explanation. Paul2 put fourth an exhaustive explanation on the very question you have just asked, and he directed it toward you Petro, when you asked the very same question of him. I will search through the threads and find it if you continue to have "memory problems".

I really have to wonder why you act as though it has never been explained to you Petro. It smacks of dishonesty, or in the very least, antagonism. Either way, it's not honest.

Listen Petro, I'm just trying to help you see the truth of God's Word.

Well, your disertation of Romans 2, is clearly not true, how can anyone believe what you claim to be truth, when you diverge from context and basic simple language  understanding of what is written??

Petro

[Bronzesnake]

Petro...

 

Ohhhh....really, perhaps you can explain the difference??...........paul2 and others haven't, perhaps you can expalin that difference, but please give sound scripture...

What is the difference of the, Called Elect Chosen Saints of God, post resurrection and those which come out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb of Rev 7:14??

You and they, have never answered this because  YOU KNOW there is no difference, if anyone knows anything, you know there is no difference and this is why you ignore this question.

 It has been fully explained to you Petro, including sound Biblical references, however, you refuse to open your eyes to the truth.

 There's no getting through to you my friend.

Bronzesnake.

[Petro]

Petro...

 

Ohhhh....really, perhaps you can explain the difference??...........paul2 and others haven't, perhaps you can expalin that difference, but please give sound scripture...

What is the difference of the, Called Elect Chosen Saints of God, post resurrection and those which come out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb of Rev 7:14??

You and they, have never answered this because  YOU KNOW there is no difference, if anyone knows anything, you know there is no difference and this is why you ignore this question.

 It has been fully explained to you Petro, including sound Biblical references, however, you refuse to open your eyes to the truth.

 There's no getting through to you my friend.

Bronzesnake.

bz,

Suurree..............sound biblical references, thats a good one...

Sorry bz, but it is clear to me, you do not know what you are talking about....if you did, you would site the refernece where this was done...

But you can't even do that because it hasn't been explained at all, using the Scriptures.

That ois why, you have two classes of born again Christians in your eschatology, which you cannot reconcile to the Chruch.

Some in and some out.

It is clear the ones saved after your pre trib rapture, are not saved by keeping the Mosaic Law, and offering up sacrifices for their sins, but by the shed blood and faith of Jesus at the cross, of whom  HE (Jesus) intercedes for until Satan is cast out of heaven, here is a sound Biblical scripture which supports this very teaching;

Rev 12
10  And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12  Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Jesus intercedes for His people in the heavenlies, while the accuser of the brethern makes the accusations of our brethern the called chosen elect Saints, whom Peter refered to at;

Acts 11
4  But Peter rehearsed the matter from the beginning, and expounded it by order unto them, saying,
5  I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me:
..................................................
15  And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16  Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17  Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

You and others are hard pressed to prove using scripture that the Tribulation Saints will not be indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

Since the scriptures are clear, that all who belong to Him, are sealed by the Spirit of Promise.

Acts 2
16  But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17  And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18  And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19  And I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
21  And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

The Jews who are saved during the end times, will be saved in like manner as Cornelius and his household, spoken of at Acts 10, and rehearse in chapter 11, by Peter..

How do you explain this??  

Only by ignoring scriptures, can you...



Good luck..

Petro