LAW KEEPERS

[4JC]

Obebience, out of Love or duty? Both, I'm sure you agree about love, so heres duty.

Luke 17:17:7 But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?

17:8 And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?

17:9 Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.

17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

Obedience of love.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Both our love for the Lord and our sense of duty to Him should motivate our obedience.

Our obedience does not merit salvation, of course. But genuine conversion to Christ inevitably produces obedience. Therefore, while obedience is never a condition for salvation, it is nontheless always salvations fruit. That is why scripture speaks of obedience as an essential evidence of true Christianity: "He that saith, I know him and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him" (1Jn. 2:4). "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devel: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God" (3:10). "He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God" (3Jn. 11).


What does "under the Law" really mean?

In what sense are we freed from the Law under grace?

We are not under the ceremonial law.

We are not under the law for justification.

How is Christian Obedience different from legalism?

God bless

[Petro]

The fruit of the Spirit is;

Love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.  (Gal 5:22-23)


Obedience produces Faith, Faith is a gift of the Spirit by the Grace of God.

Christians are called to live from faith unto faith, for the just shall live by faith.

And everything that is not of FAITH, is sin.

Keeping commandments is not of Faith....one must due them.

Did you ever read where Jesus said; even the priests did not keep the sabbath, and were found guiltless??

Mat 12
5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.


Do you know what this means??


Petro

[4JC]

I'm out of time tonight Petro, I'll try to get back tomorrow morning. God bless.

[4JC]

Obedience produces Faith, Faith is a gift of the Spirit by the Grace of God.

Faith comes by hearing the Word of God. Since your statement contradicts itself, and I know you better than that, I'll assume the first part is a type-o and you meant to say Faith produces Obedience. Which was my point about the fruit of salvation and I would agree 100%. If I'm wrong about the type-o, then I disagree with the first part.

And everything that is not of FAITH, is sin.

Keeping commandments is not of Faith....one must due them.

Romans7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

The moral standards set by the law are a reflection of God's character.

Did you ever read where Jesus said; even the priests did not keep the sabbath, and were found guiltless??

Mat 12
5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.


Do you know what this means??

Yes, also see Matthew 9:13. In a nutshell, it was a rebuke. Jesus cites Hos. 6:6 (cf. 1 Sam.15:22:Mic.6:6-8).
Which emphasizes absolute priority of the laws moral standards over the ceremonial requirments.

God bless

[Petro]

4JC reply #28 at Law Keepers

Faith comes by hearing the Word of God. Since your statement contradicts itself, and I know you better than that, I'll assume the first part is a type-o and you meant to say Faith produces Obedience. Which was my point about the fruit of salvation and I would agree 100%. If I'm wrong about the type-o, then I disagree with the first part.

4JC,

Forgive me, I assumed you understood, one has to hear the word of God firstly (and it must be preached to the individual according to (1 Cor 1:21), before he can trust (a form of belief without commitment) it together with obedience (perhaps this could be even, a simple desire to obey) will produce the necessary FAITH to believe with commitment in Jesus which  saves the individual.

For a blow by blow snap shot of the order, see Ephesians 1:12-13, trust first followed by belief or saving Faith, causes the sealing and indwelling of the Holy Spirit.  

Only trusting and obeying will produce this FAITH, since it is a gift by the GRACE of GOD, salvation being the end result or the free gift.

Those who separarte Grace from Faith, don't accept this, but it matters little, the fact is one cannot separate Grace (of God), from Faith (in God).

Romans7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good

The commandment of the NT to repent of which Paul refers to at Acts 17:30, is the commandment which damns all who fail to obey it to an eternity in Hell.

This has nothing to do with the 10 commandments, since it is understaood, no one has ever, nor will ever keep the 10 commandments, that is the reason why, Paul say at Eph 2;

1  And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins:

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Rom 6:17,  

notice he doesn't say the;

form of commandments which was delivered you

The moral standards set by the law are a reflection of God's character

No arguments here.

Yes, also see Matthew 9:13. In a nutshell, it was a rebuke. Jesus cites Hos. 6:6 (cf. 1 Sam.15:22:Mic.6:6-8).
Which emphasizes absolute priority of the laws moral standards over the ceremonial requirments.

God bless

Wrong, not even close...........the priests performed worked on the sabbath, keeping the sabbath Holy was a commandment, not a moral law, the breaking of the keeping of the Sabbath is offense against God Himself.

Ex 20
8  Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9  Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10  But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11  For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Understanding this passage of scripture will set you free from bondage of having a need to keep the  the law, and will set you free.  It is good to keep the commandments, but not a matter of life and death, since we are dead to them,

In other words, doing the Lords work on the Sabbath is more important to God, than keeping it.

Jesus hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

There is the Letter of the Law, and the Spirit of the Law.


The priests performed a sacrificial offering on the sabbath.

Jesus rebuked the Pharasees who said to Him;

Mat 12
 2  ...............................Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.

What did they do??

And How does that apply to NT Saints, who are Priests of God??

If you come to and understanding of this, you will see Grace in a totally different way.  It is not Grace thru Faith and keeping the commandments that saves, at all........it is Grace thru Faith, period.

Blessings,

Petro

[4JC]

Hey Petro,

Although a lack of obediedce may prevent a growth in faith (if that's what you mean, I agree), obedience does not produce faith. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God.

Let's look at the verse you gave

Acts 17:30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,

17:31 Because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead."

We see the same thing in Romans 3:25, but lets look at the context and see what it tells us.

3:20Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
 
3:21But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
 
3:22Even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;

3:23For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

Here is the parrellel to Acts 17:30

3:25Whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,

3:26To demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Speeking of justification

3:27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.
 
3:28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
 
3:29Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also,
 
3:30Since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.

Here is the key verse
 
3:31Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

3:31 Knowing He would be accused of antinomianism (being against the law) for argueing that a man was justified apart from keeping the law, Paul introduced here a defense he later developed in chapters 6,7. through faith....we establish the law. Salvation by grace through faith does not denigrate the law but underscores its true importance:1) by providing a payment for the penelty of death, which the law requires for failing to keep it;2)by fulfilling the law's original purpose, which is to serve as a tutor to show mankind's utter inability to obey God's righteous demands and to drive people to Christ (Gal. 3:24); and 3) by giving believers the capacity to to obey it (8:3-4). (Macarthur study bible)

Wrong, not even close...........the priests performed worked on the sabbath, keeping the sabbath Holy was a commandment, not a moral law, the breaking of the keeping of the Sabbath is offense against God Himself.

LOL, come on, that's not what I said.

iron sharpens iron

God Bless

[Petro]

author 4JC

Hey Petro,

Although a lack of obediedce may prevent a growth in faith (if that's what you mean, I agree), obedience does not produce faith. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God.

Phil 1
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Both believing in Him and suffering with Him, is by Faith, since this is speaking of His death and resurrection, the scriptures assure us that is we have died and been buried with Christ and have also been resurrected with Him.


Co 2
9  For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10  And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11  In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13  And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;


Know I know you haven't suffred much fort Him, just as I haven't, but it made clear we have died and been resurrected, even while others suffer for their Faith in Him, and we who are members of the same body suffer with them, sometime I wonder if we are even aware of what is happening to other members of the body of Jesus.

Note:

1 Cor 12
14  For the body is not one member, but many.
15  If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16  And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
17  If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
18  But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
19  And if they were all one member, where were the body?
20  But now are they many members, yet but one body.
21  And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
22  Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
23  And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
24  For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:
25  That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
26  And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
27  Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

You may reject this, I don't..

My Faith in Christ is not something I conjured up, praise the Lord he has equipped me, with everything I need to live a life pleasing to Him, even my Faith in Christis the result of His Grace, since He assures me He has given me to Jesus, who will raise me up at the last day, that my hope might be in Him, and not in myself.....nor anything I do.

3:31 Knowing He would be accused of antinomianism....

I doubt Paul even considered this at all, or even cared what others would accuse him of, it is clear from his writings he sought to please God and not men.

I think you have added to Gods Word here, to shore up your doctrine...which lacks biblical a foundation .

LOL, come on, that's not what I said.

So, what did you mean??



Petro

[4JC]

Petro, Up until you quoted me the second time in your last post, I agree with everything you said and the scripture you gave. I am very familiar with 1 cor. 12, I wish more people today would understand it. I'm not sure how it applies to the debate at hand, but it is nontheless truth. I know it is difficult to talk about the law and not discuss justification, but it seems, to me, very difficult to seperate law and justification in the minds of the people I'm talking too. In other words, We end up debateing something we are in agreement in. Maybe this comes from years of debating against Arminianism.

Quote:
3:31 Knowing He would be accused of antinomianism....
 

I doubt Paul even considered this at all, or even cared what others would accuse him of, it is clear from his writings he sought to please God and not men.

I think you have added to Gods Word here, to shore up your doctrine...which lacks biblical a foundation .

Actually, I think the writer meant he (paul) feared not for his own sake, but truths sake. as this thread is a perfect example of how we must be very clear on what we say lest it be misunderstood and lead people astray.

So, what did you mean??

Quote:
Yes, also see Matthew 9:13. In a nutshell, it was a rebuke. Jesus cites Hos. 6:6 (cf. 1 Sam.15:22:Mic.6:6-8).
Which emphasizes absolute priority of the laws moral standards over the ceremonial requirments.

God bless  
 

I gave Matt. 9:13 because it was a better example. I believe it explains it better, that is, to "know what this means".

Matt. 12 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

The pharisees cared mostly about the outer man, the cerimonies and so on. But is this more important than to Love our nieghbor as ourself? When the two clashed the moral Law overrided the cerimonial requirements of the law of that time.

God bless

[Petro]

Petro, Up until you quoted me the second time in your last post, I agree with everything you said and the scripture you gave. I am very familiar with 1 cor. 12, I wish more people today would understand it. I'm not sure how it applies to the debate at hand, but it is nontheless truth.

You are not sure?

It is because you just use certain isolated verses, to try and prove your viewpoint, no offense but, clearly you need to consider all verse that shed light on the matter, this passage answers the obvious question which would be asked by the use of Phil 1:29, where we are told Faith to believe is Jesus in given to us, and also to suffer for His sake.

If were persecuted for our faith this would not be an issue.  


 

I know it is difficult to talk about the law and not discuss justification, but it seems, to me, very difficult to seperate law and justification in the minds of the people I'm talking too. In other words, We end up debateing something we are in agreement in.

Well, you and wopik, brought it up, I am sharing what Gods Word clearly teaches, but you all insist, one must keep the commandments to continue being saved, so that in effect you turn salvation from Grace through Faith, to Faioth and keeping the law (commandments), because in extending your theory, you would claim, if Christians do not keep the commandments, they will lose their salvation; while we state plainly that not keeping the commandments Jesus gave His people, this is proof one may not be saved at all, although one says he is, good works are not evidence of salvation, obeying Gods Word is, He commands all men everywhere to Repent, (Acts 17:30) and to believe in Him whom He has sent(Ex 18:15-19).

Jesus, said If you love me keep my commandments, Christians today ignore His commandments, yet desire to keep the 10 commandments, yet, they call themselves Chritians and reject Jesus own words, especially when contending on this subject,

the doctrine of eternal security is founded on Jesus own words, yet those who say they are believers reject His own words.  One cannot take one passage of scripture and create
a whole teaching contrary to the Lords own promises, it is better to say, I don't understand why he said this, rather then go down the road of deception.

Quote:
3:31 Knowing He would be accused of antinomianism....
 

I doubt Paul even considered this at all, or even cared what others would accuse him of, it is clear from his writings he sought to please God and not men.

I think you have added to Gods Word here, to shore up your doctrine...which lacks biblical a foundation .

Actually, I think the writer meant he (paul) feared not for his own sake, but truths sake. as this thread is a perfect example of how we must be very clear on what we say lest it be misunderstood and lead people astray.

"I think the writer meant", see this is what I mean about adding something to scripture and then calling it inspired.

So, what did you mean??

Quote:
Yes, also see Matthew 9:13. In a nutshell, it was a rebuke. Jesus cites Hos. 6:6 (cf. 1 Sam.15:22:Mic.6:6-8).
Which emphasizes absolute priority of the laws moral standards over the ceremonial requirments.

God bless  
 

I gave Matt. 9:13 because it was a better example. I believe it explains it better, that is, to "know what this means".

Matt. 12 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

The pharisees cared mostly about the outer man, the cerimonies and so on. But is this more important than to Love our nieghbor as ourself? When the two clashed the moral Law overrided the cerimonial requirements of the law of that time.

God bless

You confuse everything here,  the commandments is what we have been discussing, keeping the sabbath is a commandment, we Christians do not observe the sabbath, because we see clearly, the keeping of the sabbath is a shadow of the real sabbath day of rest revealed in the New Covenant, Jesus is our rest, He is Lord of the Sabbath, we are his priests and  able ministers of His Gospel in the present tense (not will be, at some future time), we do the Lords work daily, as God enables us, the commandments were clearly delineated by Jesus himself for us, when He said;

Mat 22
40  On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Plus He gave other commandments, do you know what these are??

Anyhow, to answer your question;

I know it is difficult to talk about the law and not discuss justification, but it seems, to me, very difficult to seperate law and justification in the minds of the people I'm talking too.

Why do you bring up the law, when talking about justification??

It is enough that Gods Word says;

Rom4
13  For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14  For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15  Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16  Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
8:1  There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3  For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:


Gal 2
16  Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

This should end all arguments.

Why do you insist keeping the commandments, will somehow justify Christians before God at the end??

[Since all, Christians are justified by the Faith of Jesus Christ, and His righteousness is imputed to us.]  

It is because you and those that subscribe to this doctrine, do not understand Rom 4, and James 2.

I can only surmise,  ignorance is the cause,  since both passages are clear, no one is justified by keeping the law/commandments, or working some good work, period.......


But anyhow, thank you for your contribution, I trust this will encourage us, to seek the truth in the Word of God without adding our own thoughts or words to HIS.


Blessings,

Petro

[Petro]

Above all else, I gave you a verse that clearly, states that Bornjh Again  Christians will be justified in the end, in spite of many offences(transgressions against the law), you can accept this or not, it won't change the truth of this verse one bit.

You know it is possible for people to believe they are a christian, when in fact they are not, I have to say, that all who deny Jesus spoken words for doctrines concocted by men, may be decieving themselves, why??

Because every spoken word by Jesus, are words the Father put in His mouth and He will require it, from every person that heard these words, in that day, this is a fact, because He (Jesus) is that prophet, of Ex 18:15-19.

Above all else, we know Satan comes as an angel of light to deceive and so do his ministers, and they do decieve many.


Petro

[4JC]

Petro, I'll answer your post later when I have more time.

I have to ask, what are you obedient to?  

You can't be obedient unless you have a standard, otherwise it isn't obedience, it's simply your will.

You keep acusing me of of not being true to Gods Word. But clearly my theology accounts for all scripture and not just some of it. You have yet to answer the abundance of scripture given by myself and others here. You keep argueing justification. Ill say it again, I agree. But the law still stands.
Why would God sew something into our hearts that not only is a sin, as you say, but was abolished, as you say. As of this time, you have brought nothing to the table to defend your beliefs, other than false acusations.

God bless

[4JC]

Hopefuly, I'll have time to finish this.

You are not sure?

It is because you just use certain isolated verses, to try and prove your viewpoint, no offense but, clearly you need to consider all verse that shed light on the matter, this passage answers the obvious question which would be asked by the use of Phil 1:29, where we are told Faith to believe is Jesus in given to us, and also to suffer for His sake.

If were persecuted for our faith this would not be an issue.  

Can you please show me how 1 Cor. 12 teaches that obedience produces faith.

Well, you and wopik, brought it up, I am sharing what Gods Word clearly teaches, but you all insist, one must keep the commandments to continue being saved, so that in effect you turn salvation from Grace through Faith, to Faioth and keeping the law (commandments), because in extending your theory, you would claim, if Christians do not keep the commandments, they will lose their salvation; while we state plainly that not keeping the commandments Jesus gave His people, this is proof one may not be saved at all, although one says he is, good works are not evidence of salvation, obeying Gods Word is, He commands all men everywhere to Repent, (Acts 17:30) and to believe in Him whom He has sent(Ex 18:15-19).

Jesus, said If you love me keep my commandments, Christians today ignore His commandments, yet desire to keep the 10 commandments, yet, they call themselves Chritians and reject Jesus own words, especially when contending on this subject,

the doctrine of eternal security is founded on Jesus own words, yet those who say they are believers reject His own words.  One cannot take one passage of scripture and create
a whole teaching contrary to the Lords own promises, it is better to say, I don't understand why he said this, rather then go down the road of deception.

In light of the fact that obedience is an fruit of a true faith, and that it is not a determining factor in ones salvation, Remember the saying "You can have works without faith but you cant have faith without works"? Is this not James whole point. I think you'll see that everything I posted is in line with the Word of God. Remember, I said faith produces obedience, you said obedience produces faith, is that not a works based salvation? The very thing you claim to stand against. My theology is in harmony with eternal security.

"I think the writer meant", see this is what I mean about adding something to scripture and then calling it inspired.

This one is my fault, I should have been more clear. lets follow it through.

My quote of Macarthur

3:31 Knowing He would be accused of antinomianism (being against the law) for argueing that a man was justified apart from keeping the law, Paul introduced here a defense he later developed in chapters 6,7. through faith....we establish the law. Salvation by grace through faith does not denigrate the law but underscores its true importance:1) by providing a payment for the penelty of death, which the law requires for failing to keep it;2)by fulfilling the law's original purpose, which is to serve as a tutor to show mankind's utter inability to obey God's righteous demands and to drive people to Christ (Gal. 3:24); and 3) by giving believers the capacity to to obey it (8:3-4). (Macarthur study bible)

Then you stated in reply;

Quote:
3:31 Knowing He would be accused of antinomianism....
 
From Petro
I doubt Paul even considered this at all, or even cared what others would accuse him of, it is clear from his writings he sought to please God and not men.

I think you have added to Gods Word here, to shore up your doctrine...which lacks biblical a foundation .

Since it was not my words, but Macarthur's, of which I am in agreement with, I said;  (here meaning Macarthur)added for clarity.

Actually, I think the writer (here meaning Macarthur) meant he (paul) feared not for his own sake, but truths sake. as this thread is a perfect example of how we must be very clear on what we say lest it be misunderstood and lead people astray.

Of which you replied;

"I think the writer meant", see this is what I mean about adding something to scripture and then calling it inspired.

I hope that clears things up on the matter.

You said

You confuse everything here,  the commandments is what we have been discussing, keeping the sabbath is a commandment, we Christians do not observe the sabbath, because we see clearly, the keeping of the sabbath is a shadow of the real sabbath day of rest revealed in the New Covenant, Jesus is our rest, He is Lord of the Sabbath, we are his priests and  able ministers of His Gospel in the present tense (not will be, at some future time), we do the Lords work daily, as God enables us, the commandments were clearly delineated by Jesus himself for us, when He said;

No, you confuse everything here.Your looking at the small picture and throwing the baby out with the bathwater. You're only looking at the sabbath as it pertained to the Jews. Are we now allowed to comit adultry because it no longer is punishable by death. There are certain aspects of the law that were unique to the Jews, but the law still stands.Also keep in mind that sometimes in scripture we are speeking about the traditions of man and sometimes the aspects of the law that were unique to the Jews. We see an exellent example of this in (I believe) Mark 2:27-28 where Jesus rebukes them not for their observance of the sabbath but there abuse of it. see Duet. 23:25

God Bless

[Petro]

posted by 4JC
Can you please show me how 1 Cor. 12 teaches that obedience produces faith.

Geeesh....you didn't even understand the point I made;  you need to read my posts, to understand the point I made.

In light of the fact that obedience is an fruit of a true faith, and that it is not a determining factor in ones salvation,

If one is not saved, he cannot produce fruit unto God, so It is fruitless to discuss fruit if one is not obedient.  Obedience will produce fruit.  It begins with obedience to the commandment to repent (Acts 17:30), and continuing a life of obedience subjected to the Holy Spirit, will produce spiritual fruit.

Remember the saying "You can have works without faith but you cant have faith without works"? Is this not James whole point. I think you'll see that everything I posted is in line with the Word of God. Remember, I said faith produces obedience, you said obedience produces faith, is that not a works based salvation?

 


Concerning James 2, you nor wopik, understand that Rom 4, speaks of Justification before God, key verses are;

2  For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3  For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4  Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5  But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6  Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

It is clear, one is not saved by faith and/or works at this passage of scripture.

In James 2, the key verse is;

18  Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.

This is the verse those who believe one must work to be saved, misunderstand, becaus it is natural for the natural man to want to contribute to his own salavtion, and those that think this way, insult the Spirit of Grace.

Maybe I can quote the verse using another version for you, to help you out;

"You say that you have faith and I have merely good actions.  Well, all you can do is to show me a faith without corresponding actions, but I can show you by my faith my actions that I have faith as well." Phillips Modern Version

You can see, this has nothing to do with God, it is one man proving to another man his faith with or without works.

In short, if a man came to you and said, "You say you have faith, and I have works: show me your faith without your  works, and I will show you my faith by my works."  then the rest follows.  

Everything that follows this verse must follow in the light of this verse.

Men are saved by faith not faith and works.  This is a false teaching.

The very thing you claim to stand against. My theology is in harmony with eternal security.

Unfortunately your theology and mine agrees (in the sense only, that the saved will produce works), and whats unfortunate, is your theology gets there by believeing salvation is the result of faith + works, mine gets there by saying exactly what the scriptures teach;  that a man is saved by faith alone, without works, but works is the result of that faith.

One Honors God, whiole the otherone dishonors God.

I trust you can see, the truth of this point.

petro said;
"I think the writer meant", see this is what I mean about adding something to scripture and then calling it inspired.

4JC replied;
This one is my fault, I should have been more clear. lets follow it through.

My quote of Macarthur

3:31 Knowing He would be accused of antinomianism (being against the law) for argueing that a man was justified apart from keeping the law, Paul introduced here a defense he later developed in chapters 6,7. through faith....we establish the law. Salvation by grace through faith does not denigrate the law but underscores its true importance:1) by providing a payment for the penelty of death, which the law requires for failing to keep it;2)by fulfilling the law's original purpose, which is to serve as a tutor to show mankind's utter inability to obey God's righteous demands and to drive people to Christ (Gal. 3:24); and 3) by giving believers the capacity to to obey it (8:3-4). (Macarthur study bible)

Mac Arthurs commentaries are not inspired, those are his own comments and the result of his own studies, which may or may not be accurate.  I never refer to these commentaries, they might help or hinder, depending of the person writing these.

Then you stated in reply;

Quote:
3:31 Knowing He would be accused of antinomianism....
 
From Petro
I doubt Paul even considered this at all, or even cared what others would accuse him of, it is clear from his writings he sought to please God and not men.

I think you have added to Gods Word here, to shore up your doctrine...which lacks biblical a foundation .

4JC replies;
Since it was not my words, but Macarthur's, of which I am in agreement with, I said;  (here meaning Macarthur)added for clarity.

Actually, I think the writer (here meaning Macarthur) meant he (paul) feared not for his own sake, but truths sake. as this thread is a perfect example of how we must be very clear on what we say lest it be misunderstood and lead people astray.

Of which you replied;

"I think the writer meant", see this is what I mean about adding something to scripture and then calling it inspired.

4 JC repolied;
I hope that clears things up on the matter.

I see, where all this came from, now..

You said

petro said;

You confuse everything here,  the commandments is what we have been discussing, keeping the sabbath is a commandment, we Christians do not observe the sabbath, because we see clearly, the keeping of the sabbath is a shadow of the real sabbath day of rest revealed in the New Covenant, Jesus is our rest, He is Lord of the Sabbath, we are his priests and  able ministers of His Gospel in the present tense (not will be, at some future time), we do the Lords work daily, as God enables us, the commandments were clearly delineated by Jesus himself for us, when He said;

4Jc replies
No, you confuse everything here.Your looking at the small picture and throwing the baby out with the bathwater. You're only looking at the sabbath as it pertained to the Jews. Are we now allowed to comit adultry because it no longer is punishable by death. There are certain aspects of the law that were unique to the Jews, but the law still stands.Also keep in mind that sometimes in scripture we are speeking about the traditions of man and sometimes the aspects of the law that were unique to the Jews. We see an exellent example of this in (I believe) Mark 2:27-28 where Jesus rebukes them not for their observance of the sabbath but there abuse of it. see Duet. 23:25

God Bless

Hey............you can keep the sabbath if you desire, but if you believe you must keep it to be saved in the end,  I would ask myself if I were you, what happens if I don't, if your answer is, then I may NOT be saved, than that will prove my point, that for you, your theology is  Faith + Works = Salvation.

This is the God dishonoring theology I am pointing out, as False to you and wopik.

Trusting this makes it clearer, to you.



Blessings,

Petro

[4JC]

Quote from Petro

Re:there never was a law that could save
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2004, 08:04:31 PM »    

While we all agree, Christians should obey Gods commandments, they are not obeyed in order to be saved, but as a witness and a testimony to the unsaved and because Christians desire to be obedient to God in living a Holy Life, we all fail everyday.

Is this not what I have been saying?

Petro, you're killing me. lol

[Petro]

Quote from Petro

Re:there never was a law that could save
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2004, 08:04:31 PM »    

While we all agree, Christians should obey Gods commandments, they are not obeyed in order to be saved, but as a witness and a testimony to the unsaved and because Christians desire to be obedient to God in living a Holy Life, we all fail everyday.

Is this not what I have been saying?

Petro, you're killing me. lol

4Jc,

I know what you are saying, you are saying a person, must be have faith + good works in order to be saved, this is the joke, that should make you laugh.

And it is false, and man is saved by faith alone, the work that a man doesm is the work God produces in him, to "will and to do" of His good pleasure, this is a work of God, and not man.

And this is the prinicple reason why you and wopik, are on the same page, you do not know what is being said, and this is why you cannopt grasp the teaching of James 2.

Do you believe in the triune Godhead??

How about in the person of the Holy Spirit??

If you do...

Your friend wopik doesn't??

How is it you are in agreement with him, on this other issues.??


It doesn't make sense..

Thanks for your comments anyhow..

Petro